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What is Potassium-R-Alpha Lipoic Acid?


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#1 nootropi

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 06:34 AM


Does anybody know?

searching google gets this

I noted that smi2le has this in, but what are the advantages of this from RALA? Anybody?

Thanks,

;)

Adam

#2 shpongled

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 09:37 PM

Never heard of it. Greater stability perhaps?

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#3 nootropi

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 11:11 PM

Never heard of it. Greater stability perhaps?


Hey David: I hope you are not pissed at me for my rather snide comment to you; I meant it to be more emphatic than insulting, trust me. I would like to consider you my friend, as I have great respect for you. I think you are quite intelligent and your contribution to the nootropic ingesting world is immense; all I am asking is that you don't ridicule the effectiveness of my regimen simply based on the fact that I cannot implement and provide results of a large (n>50) double blind placebo controlled study on "healthy" subjects. I appreciate that you recognize that such a study is essentially impossible in the world that we live in today. I can tell you that before starting the regimen I currently employ, I was, "at best," (in advanced quantitiative courses) a "B" student. So I am just sharing my joy that now I can earn A's with the same amount of effort; and I truly hope that others are able to find such successes from their regimens; and if they do, I would like to hear their story, it's that simple. I think it is pretty innocent; I mean if someone starts to share that they are taking nootropics that clearly have contraindications, I expect that you would know me well enough by now that I would warn this person of the dangers. So, in sharing our regimens, although we cannot "prove" their effectiveness objectively, at least we can hear the accounts of individuals whom are trying to better the performance of their executive organ, and if their implementation is possibly dangerous, we could help each other to avoid the associated negative effects.

I have to get back to work now...I am sure you know how that is.

Take care,

Adam [thumb]

#4

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 02:23 AM

Never heard of it. Greater stability perhaps?


I believe so.

ALA
R-ALA -> greater bioavailability
K-R-ALA -> greater bioavailability, doesn't degrade

#5 nootropi

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 11:52 AM

AOR has a good article on the benefits of R-ALA compared to regular LA. The benefits of R-ALA are due to the fact that it contains ONLY the R-Isomer of LA. Read that article, it is excellent.

;)

#6 nootropi

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 11:53 AM

Never heard of it. Greater stability perhaps?


I believe so.

ALA
R-ALA -> greater bioavailability
K-R-ALA -> greater bioavailability, doesn't degrade


Hello Cosmos,

AOR has a good article on the benefits of R-ALA compared to regular LA. The benefits of R-ALA are due to the fact that it contains ONLY the R-Isomer of LA. Read that article, it is excellent.

;)

#7 AORsupport

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 09:04 PM

Does anybody know?

searching google gets this

I noted that smi2le has this in, but what are the advantages of this from RALA?  Anybody?


As you may know, "straight" R(+)-lipoic acid has the unfortunate tendency to polymerize unless it is kept cool. It also tends to react when combined in a capsule or tablet with ALCAR -- ironically, granted the importance of the ALCAR/R-LA "cocktail." Moreover, when R-LA is put into a tablet, it has a strong tendency toward sinterization, leading to reduced bioavailability.

All of this severely constrains formulators wanting to use R-LA in their supplements (unless, of course, they just don't know or don't care what they're doing). This is, in fact, why a Bruce Ames-affiliated company has been using the racemate in their ALCAR/lipoic acid pills, despite the fact that Dr. Ames himself is fully aware of the superiority of the R(+)-enantiomer, as he explained at the International Association of Biomedical Gerontology conference in 2003.

Various R-LA salts, including the potassium salt, are to a greater or lesser degree immune from these problems. AOR's current R(+)-lipoic acid supplements use K-R-LA, and (if the results of some formulation work which we have contracted turns out as we anticipate) we will shortly begin using what we anticipate to be an even more stable, versatile salt.

To your health!

AOR

#8 eternaltraveler

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Posted 19 July 2004 - 01:30 PM

K-R-LA seems like it would be great for me. I've been traveling quite a bit lately. I'm in russia now. And my R-LA is does not smell like it should anymore. It's been quite hot and I haven't had access to refrigeration.

Is it still safe to take?

#9 nagaki

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 06:07 PM

I have been using K-RALA for several months now, made by GeroNova. This is pretty much all they do and are extremely knowledgeable in the field. If you want to know about what makes it different from RLA and anything else about it, visit their website for information. A scientific and technical paper on "polymerization and bioavailability" is very interesting, and there are easier articles to read like "introducing K-RALA." I have spoken to them on the phone about their product and have used both the liquid K-RALA-10 and the caps. They have trademarked the name K-RALA.

#10 nootropi

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 06:28 PM

I have been using K-RALA for several months now, made by GeroNova. This is pretty much all they do and are extremely knowledgeable in the field. If you want to know about what makes it different from RLA and anything else about it, visit their website for information. A scientific and technical paper on "polymerization and bioavailability" is very interesting, and there are easier articles to read like "introducing K-RALA." I have spoken to them on the phone about their product and have used both the liquid K-RALA-10 and  the caps. They have trademarked the name K-RALA.


Well nagaki:

You can now save a TON of money by picking this up from smi2le. Click here to order (or check the prices), they are the best prices available...by a long shot. :) I ordered a bit myself...but it does cost a bit more than R-ALA; and I have mine refigerated. [thumb]

Take care,

Adam

#11 nagaki

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 07:45 PM

Thanks Adam,
I went to the site and indeed the prices are very good (for everything). Do you cap the powder yourself (isn't that bothersome) or just put it in water?
I imagine it tastes pretty strong?
Just in terms of information on its own, the Geronova site is a very good source of info, links to clinical studies, etc. on this product if you (or anyone) wants in-depth research on it. I didn't notice the liquid form on the sile site though, do you know if they carry it? Have you tried K-RALA in liquid form?
nagaki

#12 nootropi

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 07:54 PM

Thanks Adam,
I went to the site and indeed the prices are very good (for everything). Do you cap the powder yourself (isn't that bothersome) or just put it in water?
I imagine it tastes pretty strong?
Just in terms of information on its own, the Geronova site is a very good source of info, links to clinical studies, etc. on this product if you (or anyone) wants in-depth research on it. I didn't notice the liquid form on the sile site though, do you know if they carry it? Have you tried K-RALA in liquid form?
nagaki


Yes, I cap the powder myself and it is very easy. A bit time consuming, but considering the amount of money you save and the precision dosing you can implement; it is TOTALLY worth it. It took me a little while to learn how to use cap 'em quick and the tamper correctly and to guage the correct amount to fit into 00 size capsules, now I can order a year's worth of nootropics for 1/10 (or less) the prices of the online pharmacies. I know that if you want to place a large enough order; smi2le will cap everything for you; but like I said, precision dosing is important.

You should see these threads:

click here

Click here

Take care,

Adam [thumb]

#13 ryan1113

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Posted 30 July 2004 - 11:36 PM

Does anybody know?

searching google gets this

I noted that smi2le has this in, but what are the advantages of this from RALA?  Anybody?


I think the main advantages of K-rALA other than its increased stability is the fact that it is non-acidic, tasteless, and water soluble.

#14 nagaki

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 02:52 PM

This is taken from the GeroNova website. There is also a long article called 'polymerization and bioavailability' (click on the info button on the home page which will take you to a list of the articles) for a scientific and technical explanation.

INTRODUCING.... R-LIPOIC ACID as K-RALATM (POTASSIUM-R LIPOATE)
A stable form of R-lipoic acid


INSTABILITY
R-Lipoic Acid is a highly unstable compound that easily polymerizes into a sticky rubber or glue-like substance if it is not prepared, stored and processed correctly. Even under the best conditions, RLA is extremely unstable. Exposure to air, light, moisture and temperatures slightly above ambient drastically reduces shelf life and increases the formation of this unwanted degradation product that may adversely affect bioavailability.
THE SOLUTION
K-RALATM (Potassium-R-Lipoate) is a stable, non-hygroscopic, non-polymeric potassium salt form of R-Lipoic Acid. The material does not require any special handling or refrigeration. K-RALATM capsules are heat stable, characterized by fast dissolution rates, high solubility and absorption. The capsules are free of residual solvents and moisture. The shelf life is at least 3 years.

COMPARE
There are wide variations in the R/S ratios and total polymer contents of raw material and finished products now on the market. Few supplement companies and have experience with RLA and are unaware of the myriad problems associated with its encapsulation and stability.

Information concerning RLA instability has not been passed on to their customers because their products have not been analyzed with state-of-the-art enantioselective HPLC. Frequently, supplement companies are relying solely on the manufacturer's C of As or are sending samples to analytical labs whose analysts have limited experience with enantioselective HPLC, which reveals the R/S ratios and total polymer content.

#15 jvalentin

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 04:03 PM

On the Website of Geronova we can also read somewhere that K-R-ALA is 20% K and 80% R-ALA so we lose only 20% on classical R-ALA but have a super quality product that we would have to pay quite much to get a first class classical R-ALA.

Jacques

#16 ejdavis1

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 07:06 PM

I have seen regular R-ALA degrade before my eyes when mixing and cutting the powder under a flourescent desk lamp. In about 30 seconds, the peaks in the powder turned from bright yellow to light grey!

I have obtained Potassium R-ALA from SMI2LE.BIZ (Thanks Rizzer for the fast service!) and will switch over to that soon.

I also noticed from the SMI2LE.BIZ site that they are now hiring employees! Glad to see the business surviving and growing.

#17 nagaki

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 11:33 PM

On the Website of Geronova we can also read somewhere that K-R-ALA is 20% K and 80% R-ALA so we lose only 20% on classical R-ALA but have a super quality product that we would have to pay quite much to get a first class classical R-ALA.

Actually, this is not true. Although Potassium is used to stabilize the RLA, K-RALA is the Potassium salt of RLA, a much better product for bioavailability and shelf life, among other things. It is 100% RLA with added Potassium, not a mix of 80 and 20 to make 100%. So you are not losing anything. In a 100mg cap (or a squirtful of the liquid) you get 100mg of active RLA PLUS potassium. By the way, SMI2LE uses the GeroNova produced K-RALA.

#18 jvalentin

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 08:51 AM

Hi nagaki,

I don't understand you ! OK it's a K salt. If you buy 1g of K-RALA there is 200mg of K to make the salt (according to Geronova). Of course the other 800mg are "real" RALA. It's the same thing that when you make a salt with Vitamin C for exemple with Mg or another mineral. The ratio depends of the mineral used to make the salt and the molecule he is linked with. As K is rather "heavy" and RALA a rather small molecule there is 20% K. I suppose that somebody here could make a more precise calculation of the ratio.

#19 nagaki

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 07:46 PM

Now I see what you mean! Yes, you are correct. Sorry for the confusion and for my misunderstanding.

#20 nootropi

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 04:32 AM

Did you guys know that smi2le gets his K-RALA from Geronova? That's what he told me...what do they sell it for? I am going to check right now...

Posted Image
at geronova it costs A LOT more! (suprised???)

30 vegcaps $24.95 200 mg RALA 300 mg biotin = 6 grams for $24.95

Posted Image

(plus the biotin, which I am unconvinced of its value)...at smi2le K-R-ALA 40 Grams -- $39.99, 120 Grams -- $104.99 .

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Link to geronova so you can compare the price yourself

#21 nootropi

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Posted 27 November 2004 - 05:45 PM

Does anybody know?

searching google gets this

I noted that smi2le has this in, but what are the advantages of this from RALA?  Anybody?


As you may know, "straight" R(+)-lipoic acid has the unfortunate tendency to polymerize unless it is kept cool. It also tends to react when combined in a capsule or tablet with ALCAR -- ironically, granted the importance of the ALCAR/R-LA "cocktail." Moreover, when R-LA is put into a tablet, it has a strong tendency toward sinterization, leading to reduced bioavailability.

All of this severely constrains formulators wanting to use R-LA in their supplements (unless, of course, they just don't know or don't care what they're doing). This is, in fact, why a Bruce Ames-affiliated company has been using the racemate in their ALCAR/lipoic acid pills, despite the fact that Dr. Ames himself is fully aware of the superiority of the R(+)-enantiomer, as he explained at the International Association of Biomedical Gerontology conference in 2003.

Various R-LA salts, including the potassium salt, are to a greater or lesser degree immune from these problems. AOR's current R(+)-lipoic acid supplements use K-R-LA, and (if the results of some formulation work which we have contracted turns out as we anticipate) we will shortly begin using what we anticipate to be an even more stable, versatile salt.
To your health!

AOR


See how forgetful AORsupport can be? Here he clearly states he uses KRALA.

Now, if anybody is interested in Geronova's KRALA for purchase by the kilogram, click here for a direct link to their site. Geronova also sells capsules of this product, and so does Rizzer.

#22 geigertube

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Posted 27 November 2004 - 06:48 PM

See how forgetful AORsupport can be? Here he clearly states he uses KRALA.


You forgot to put the posting date on his quote, which was four and a half months ago. He said they dont currently use it. It might be prudent to ask him when they stopped using it rather than jumping to conclusions.

Steven

#23 nootropi

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Posted 27 November 2004 - 09:43 PM

You forgot to put the posting date on his quote, which was four and a half months ago. He said they dont  currently use it. It might be prudent to ask him when they stopped using it rather than jumping to conclusions.

Steven


It might be prudent...for you to go fish up this data yourself.

Personally, I have many other things to do.

Is is apparent that you feel adequate with the title and honor of "official arbitrator." Wow, what a contribution, Stephen.

Why don't you consider contributing something in the forums other than officiating other people's posts? We already have enough cheerleaders here.

AORsupport asked me when he said he used KRALA. I found the reference. I nominate you to do the time stamp duties, it seems like you have the predisposition to do that kind of clerical work as evidenced by your posting record. Go ahead, make yourself useful. ;)

#24 geigertube

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Posted 27 November 2004 - 11:19 PM


You forgot to put the posting date on his quote, which was four and a half months ago. He said they dont  currently use it. It might be prudent to ask him when they stopped using it rather than jumping to conclusions.

Steven


It might be prudent...for you to go fish up this data yourself.

Personally, I have many other things to do.

Is is apparent that you feel adequate with the title and honor of "official arbitrator." Wow, what a contribution, Stephen.
Why don't you consider contributing something in the forums other than officiating other people's posts? We already have enough cheerleaders here.

AORsupport asked me when he said he used KRALA. I found the reference. I nominate you to do the time stamp duties, it seems like you have the predisposition to do that kind of clerical work as evidenced by your posting record. Go ahead, make yourself useful. ;)



I just wanted to make a point about your post. I'm sure you are a very busy man, and I don't wish to bother you or cause you to waste your valuable time.

I do, however, appreciate your trenchant insights regarding my forum contributions, and I will take them into consideration.

Steven

#25 nootropi

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Posted 27 November 2004 - 11:35 PM

Steve,

I am not trying to be hurtful, I am on your team. Please realize that I am not affiliated with any seller.

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#26 AORsupport

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 08:43 PM

You forgot to put the posting date on his quote, which was four and a half months ago. He said they dont  currently use it. It might be prudent to ask him when they stopped using it rather than jumping to conclusions.


It might be prudent...for you to go fish up this data yourself.

Personally, I have many other things to do.

Is is apparent that you feel adequate with the title and honor of "official arbitrator." Wow, what a contribution, Stephen.

Why don't you consider contributing something in the forums other than officiating other people's posts? We already have enough cheerleaders here.

AORsupport asked me when he said he used KRALA. I found the reference. I nominate you to do the time stamp duties, it seems like you have the predisposition to do that kind of clerical work as evidenced by your posting record. Go ahead, make yourself useful. ;)


To be clear, I never asked you where I had said that AOR had used KRALA (potassium salt of R(+)-lipoic acid). I asked you where you got the impression that we sourced it from Geronova (which we did not). Here is the original exchange from the post to which you were responding:

(if you do not remember, Geronova is the company that manufactures KRALA, and sells it to AORsupport's company)


I'm not sure where you got this impression, but in any case it isn't true. AOR is not currently using K-RALA, and even when we were, we were not buying it from Geronova or their supplier.



All emphasis added.

In response, you quoted a previous post of mine in which I stated that:

AOR's current R(+)-lipoic acid supplements use K-R-LA, and (if the results of some formulation work which we have contracted turns out as we anticipate) we will shortly begin using what we anticipate to be an even more stable, versatile salt..


As has already been noted by others, this was four months ago. And again, AOR never sourced our K-RALA from Geronova or their supplier.

I hope that this puts the issue to rest. Apologies for any confusion.

AOR

Edited by AORsupport, 29 November 2004 - 09:03 PM.





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