109 replies to this topic

[tunt01]

http://omega-6-omega...our-health.aspx

Worth your time to watch for 40 mins. download the video and handouts. watch and follow along. You will be redirected to iamplify.com to download the file (requires quick sign up). but well worth it, i think.


Follow-up information/materials are available at: http://efaeducation.nih.gov/

Edited by prophets, 13 April 2010 - 02:23 AM.

[niner]

I didn't have the time to watch the video, but I did poke around at the efaeducation site. My takehome message from there was that diet can dramatically alter your membrane fatty acid composition, and this can have a dramatic effect on CVD risk. They seem to focus on n-6/n-3 ratios, and these seem to be very predictive of CVD risk, according to their presentation. I don't think this is entirely consistent with all epidemiological evidence, but I might be missing something. At any rate, it's a very interesting site.

[Forever21]

http://omega-6-omega...our-health.aspx

Worth your time to watch for 40 mins. download the video and handouts. watch and follow along. You will be redirected to iamplify.com to download the file (requires quick sign up). but well worth it, i think.


Follow-up information/materials are available at: http://efaeducation.nih.gov/

"Omega-6 bad, Omega-3 good"

Thanks for the summary.

[Jay]

I didn't have the time to watch the video, but I did poke around at the efaeducation site. My takehome message from there was that diet can dramatically alter your membrane fatty acid composition, and this can have a dramatic effect on CVD risk. They seem to focus on n-6/n-3 ratios, and these seem to be very predictive of CVD risk, according to their presentation. I don't think this is entirely consistent with all epidemiological evidence, but I might be missing something. At any rate, it's a very interesting site.

I'm not aware of any epidemiological regarding people with balance n-6 and n-6 intakes. That is, unless you count the "primitive peoples" studies (kitavans, etc) and they all indicate no CVD disease... Is there any evidence inconsistent with the proposition that 6/3 balance prevents CVD?

[nushu]

Just make sure you don't take more than 3 grams of omega 3s per day, Dean Ornish says so!

[oehaut]

Is there any evidence inconsistent with the proposition that 6/3 balance prevents CVD?

I've not read them, but this could probably answer the question

http://www3.intersci.../84501958/issue

Look at the second part of the issu, called Dossier.

A lot of papers are discussing the role of the ratio there.

[TheFountain]

I want to get to the point where Omega 3s are the only kind of PUFAs I consume. And MUFAs are the only Omega 6s I consume. I am close enough now but I want to micro-manage it to perfection because I think it's not as simple as 0-3 versus 0-6. But of the kinds of omega 6s being consumed. THose with more Oleic acid versus those with more Linoleic acid.

Edited by TheFountain, 16 April 2010 - 02:19 PM.

[oehaut]

And MUFAs are the only Omega 6s I consume.

Aren't MUFAs omega-9? Such a oleic acid.

[oehaut]

I think it might worth saying again that, based on this

Polyunsaturated fatty acids and inflammatory processes: New twists in an old tale.

PUFA-6 can stimulate both pro and anti-inflammatory cytokines.

I don't think one must aim for 0% PUFA-6, nor that we can say things like PUFA-6=bad, PUFA-3=good.

I think what they will express (pro or anti) depends on many other factor and the metabolic context.

[Jay]

Thanks, Oehaut. Can anyone PM me the full text of this article?

Fountain:

I want to get to the point where Omega 3s are the only kind of PUFAs I consume. And MUFAs are the only Omega 6s I consume. I am close enough now but I want to micro-manage it to perfection because I think it's not as simple as 0-3 versus 0-6. But of the kinds of omega 6s being consumed. THose with more Oleic acid versus those with more Linoleic acid.

You've got a few thing wrong here. Both omega 6 and omega 3 are kinds of PUFAs. You can't only have omega 3 because we all need omega 6 too. On a practical level, don't worry too much about getting enough omega 6 since unless you have a really strange diet, you get enough anyway. Oleic acid is a MUFA and is not an omega 6 fat.

[oehaut]

Thanks, Oehaut. Can anyone PM me the full text of this article?

I'm PMing you the paper, Jay.

It's only kind of an editorial tho. You might want to look at the others paper from the issue.

Edited by oehaut, 16 April 2010 - 02:42 PM.

[tunt01]

Just make sure you don't take more than 3 grams of omega 3s per day, Dean Ornish says so!

i've averaged 3.3g per day over the last week (against 5.0g of n-6), so maybe he's not far off. IDK what the optimal # is though.

[oehaut]

i've averaged 3.3g per day over the last week (against 5.0g of n-6), so maybe he's not far off. IDK what the optimal # is though.

Opinions greatly differs, but some say 6:1, other 3:1, and other 1:1 (6:3)

[tunt01]

Opinions greatly differs, but some say 6:1, other 3:1, and other 1:1 (6:3)

yea but you can download the spreadsheet here and perform the calculation yourself according to his math. I get closer to 1:1 as being protective (Japan/Greenland area).

[oehaut]

What tears me up is that, i'm left listening to secondary opinion on the issue, as on many others, because i don't have the time to review all the evidence myself, and even if I had, my skills absolutly s*ck (i'm working on this tho, (link) (link)

So, to say the truth, i'm highly influenced by MR who feels like PUFA-6 are beneficial. (What a shame to make an authorative call like this!)

BUT

I'm wondering why he thinks DHA is bad, on the basis that it can be incorporated in the membrane composition and enhanced the risk of perixidation, when, based on what Skot presented in another thread, PUFA-6 can do exactly the same thing.

As he told me tho, epidemiological finding trumps any mechanistical speculation we can have about the issue, so this should close the discussion.

Hummmm...

Edited by oehaut, 16 April 2010 - 03:40 PM.

[ajnast4r]

I don't think one must aim for 0% PUFA-6

yea not unless they want to die. pufa-6 is the primary fat needed by the human body. eating below the DRI for n6 is a horrible idea and trying to phase out n6 is a great way to end your life quicker.

[Skötkonung]

I don't think one must aim for 0% PUFA-6

yea not unless they want to die. pufa-6 is the primary fat needed by the human body. eating below the DRI for n6 is a horrible idea and trying to phase out n6 is a great way to end your life quicker.

n-6 is actually needed to reduce inflammation.

The importance of the ratio of omega-6/omega-3 essential fatty acids
"Several sources of information suggest that human beings evolved on a diet with a ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 essential fatty acids (EFA) of 1 whereas in Western diets the ratio is 15/1–16.7/1. Western diets are deficient in omega-3 fatty acids, and have excessive amounts of omega-6 fatty acids compared with the diet on which human beings evolved and their genetic patterns were established. Excessive amounts of omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) and a very high omega-6/omega-3 ratio, as is found in today's Western diets, promote the pathogenesis of many diseases, including cardiovascular disease, cancer, and inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, whereas increased levels of omega-3 PUFA (a low omega-6/omega-3 ratio) exert suppressive effects. In the secondary prevention of cardiovascular disease, a ratio of 4/1 was associated with a 70% decrease in total mortality. A ratio of 2.5/1 reduced rectal cell proliferation in patients with colorectal cancer, whereas a ratio of 4/1 with the same amount of omega-3 PUFA had no effect. The lower omega-6/omega-3 ratio in women with breast cancer was associated with decreased risk. A ratio of 2–3/1 suppressed inflammation in patients with rheumatoid arthritis, and a ratio of 5/1 had a beneficial effect on patients with asthma, whereas a ratio of 10/1 had adverse consequences. These studies indicate that the optimal ratio may vary with the disease under consideration. This is consistent with the fact that chronic diseases are multigenic and multifactorial. Therefore, it is quite possible that the therapeutic dose of omega-3 fatty acids will depend on the degree of severity of disease resulting from the genetic predisposition. A lower ratio of omega-6/omega-3 fatty acids is more desirable in reducing the risk of many of the chronic diseases of high prevalence in Western societies, as well as in the developing countries, that are being exported to the rest of the world."

I've said this before, but I wouldn't consume too many PUFA (no more than 10% of fats consumed) lest you introduce risk of ALEs / fatty acid oxidation, and high degree of cellular membrane unsaturation. Consider human evolution and the availability of PUFA in wild-type foods. Except for perhaps seasonally available nuts / eggs, it just wouldn't have comprised a large portion of the human diet (meat and vegetables are quite low in PUFA). I also think that n-3 is important, but an exact 1:1 ratio isn't necessary with n-6 to remove disease risk. As the above study shows, asymmetrical ratios favoring n-6 still produce reductions in inflammation. Furthermore, in wild-type foods, n-6 usually presents itself at slightly higher levels than n-3.

[tunt01]

RDI PUFA-6

http://efaeducation....ov/sig/dri.html

[Jay]

What is MR's argument against fish oil? Anybody have a good link?

Also, and this is a bit off topic, check out this information on Neptune Krill oil I found. Any NKO supplement that lists vitamin A says it has 100IU per gram of NKO. However, the information I linked to says otherwise.

A gram of NKO contains .3 grams of omega 3s, so you would need about 5 grams of NKO to get about 1.5 grams of omega 3s, a decent target of omega 3 intake IMO. That should be about 500IU of retinol, right? That's a bit more than I might want (which is zero), but not too bad... However, look at table 2 and tabel 3 in the link I provided above. It indicates that NKO has on average about 300IU of retinol per gram and can range from 100IU to 450 IU. At 300IU, the average amount, you would get 1500IU of retinol for 1.5 grams of omega 3, which is a way too much for a big dairy/egg eater like myself. And, if you get a batch with 450IU, you would get 2,250 IU of retinol. Is NKO mislabelling their product? I emailed them but got no response.

Edited by Jay, 16 April 2010 - 04:36 PM.

[TheFountain]

Thanks, Oehaut. Can anyone PM me the full text of this article?

Fountain:

I want to get to the point where Omega 3s are the only kind of PUFAs I consume. And MUFAs are the only Omega 6s I consume. I am close enough now but I want to micro-manage it to perfection because I think it's not as simple as 0-3 versus 0-6. But of the kinds of omega 6s being consumed. THose with more Oleic acid versus those with more Linoleic acid.

You've got a few thing wrong here. Both omega 6 and omega 3 are kinds of PUFAs. You can't only have omega 3 because we all need omega 6 too. On a practical level, don't worry too much about getting enough omega 6 since unless you have a really strange diet, you get enough anyway. Oleic acid is a MUFA and is not an omega 6 fat.

I don't have it wrong. Reread what I typed please.

EDIT: Oh I see where you are confused about what I said. But what I meant was that foods containing MUFAs also contain Omega 6 and the oleic acid in the MUFAs (or O-9 rich fatty acids) offset the pro-inflammatory effect of the 0-6 content (or linoleic acid composition) of these sources.

I actually see how I did not fully explain this and how it seemed Like I might have confused some issues.

Edited by TheFountain, 16 April 2010 - 04:50 PM.

[Jay]

I don't have it wrong. Reread what I typed please.

I see you posted an edit so I am deleting my response.

Edited by Jay, 16 April 2010 - 05:16 PM.

[oehaut]

What is MR's argument against fish oil? Anybody have a good link?

Might be outdated, this is all I could find

http://www.crsociety...9335#msg-119335

[oehaut]

How do you guys get your DRI intake of vitamine E while avoiding PUFAs as much as possible? The only sufficient source of vit E that I could find to make the gap was almond, which are also very rich in PUFA.

How do you do this? Supplement with mixed tocopherols?

Also, if most source of PUFA-6 are also good source of vitamine E, which is supposed to be a good antioxidant at the cell membrane level, couldnt that explain that even if more PUFA are incorporated into the membrane, you're probably getting more E too and hence not having any problem? That could explain why the mechanistic speculation does not hold when tested with epidemiology.

Edited by oehaut, 16 April 2010 - 05:33 PM.

[Jay]

How do you guys get your DRI intake of vitamine E while avoiding PUFAs as much as possible? The only sufficient source of vit E that I could find to make the gap was almond, which are also very rich in PUFA.

How do you do this? Supplement with mixed tocopherols?

Also, if most source of PUFA-6 are also good source of vitamine E, which is supposed to be a good antioxidant at the cell membrane level, couldnt that explain that even if more PUFA are incorporated into the membrane, you're probably getting more E too and hence not having any problem? That could explain why the mechanistic speculation does not hold when tested with epidemiology.

Thanks for the link. I take Country Life vitamin E drops -- only 12 IU per drop. People who have more PUFA generally have lower serum vit E, despite consuming more dietary vit E. That's because PUFAs are the main substrate for vit E. See this:

In the Lyon study, patients in the experimental group consumed more vitamin C, more fiber,^{7, 21} and probably more trace elements and flavonoids than control patients did. The experimental group, however, consumed less polyunsaturated fats and less vitamin E, the major lipid-soluble antioxidant vitamin.^{7, 21} The paradoxical consequence of that in terms of plasma levels was that plasma levels of both vitamins C and E were higher in experimental patients,⁷ suggesting that adoption of Mediterranean dietary habits also results in better antioxidant defenses and lower catabolism of vitamin E. This is not surprising, because the nature of the substrate for lipid peroxidation, mainly the polyunsaturated fatty acids, and not only the antioxidants, is a dominant influence in determining the rate of lipid peroxidation.²⁶ The importance of the fatty acid composition of lipids, in both plasma and cell membranes, in determining their susceptibility to oxidation was impressively demonstrated by recent studies comparing lipids enriched in either linoleic acid or oleic acid in animal models as well as in humans^27-28: lipids enriched in oleic acid were remarkably resistant to oxidation. Mediterranean patients thus had fatty acid profiles in their diet and plasma extremely favorable for protecting circulating and tissue lipids against oxidation, as oleic acid level was increased, whereas linoleic acid level was decreased.^7, Future trials with the purpose of reinforcing antioxidant defenses to protect against cancer should take this important point into consideration.

Edited by Jay, 16 April 2010 - 05:49 PM.

[tunt01]

How do you guys get your DRI intake of vitamine E while avoiding PUFAs as much as possible? The only sufficient source of vit E that I could find to make the gap was almond, which are also very rich in PUFA.

How do you do this? Supplement with mixed tocopherols?

Also, if most source of PUFA-6 are also good source of vitamine E, which is supposed to be a good antioxidant at the cell membrane level, couldnt that explain that even if more PUFA are incorporated into the membrane, you're probably getting more E too and hence not having any problem? That could explain why the mechanistic speculation does not hold when tested with epidemiology.

I think there may be more to the PUFA story. It may be a situation where not all PUFA are the same -- that n-6 PUFA from almond (with vitamin E) is not the same as n-6 PUFA from grains (oatmeal, etc.). I'm not sure we have all the facts or data to know. I think do-no-harm is the best policy, so I've cut back on nuts.

So far today, I've gotten about 50% of my RDI in Vitamin E from Collards, raw (200 g) and Pomegranate Juice (0.5 cup).

I do typically have a cup of almond milk, which is basically my biggest PUFA source in the day (1.5-2g) but is like 70% of the Vitamin E RDI. I typically have it with an omega-3 food source (salmon, sardines) of 1-1.5g. So it's pretty balanced...

I also had 1 walnut half this morning with my pomegranate juice. so my nut consumption is there, but tiny.

I used to have this huge bowl of oatmeal (reasonably high in n-6) in the AM and a pile of nuts, blueberries and all kinds of crap on it. That's gone..........

Edited by prophets, 16 April 2010 - 05:51 PM.

[Jay]

Interesting link. MR's concerns are all mechanistic speculation, no? I'm sure he's smart, but very smart people used to believe a lot of crap about cholesterol too.

I don't know if we should have

(i) balanced (between 1:4 and 1:1) omega 3/6;

(ii) balanced 3/6 and reduced amounts of both; and/or

(iii) Only natural sources of 3/6, which generally contain various antioxidants to keep the oils from spoiling, probably in balance to the risk of spoilage (i.e., unsaturation, heat, and oxygen exposure).

I know that the people (e.g., Lyon Diet Heart Study, Kitavans, Tokelauans, Inuit, Masia, and others) that have achieved (i), (ii), and (iii) seem to fare very well (i.e., little or no CVD or cancer) . On the other hand, the !Kung achieved only (iii), with their high nut intake, and also fared well.

I go for all three.

Edited by Jay, 16 April 2010 - 07:03 PM.

[Jay]

Anybody give much thought to the fact that fish oil pills have a lot of elongated n-3's (EPA and DHA) while most dietary n-6 consumption is linoleic acid, which requires elongation by D6D to become arachidonic acid. Many things can interfere with that elongation process (CLA to name one that I know applies to me), with the result that little linoleic acid may get converted to arachidonic acid. My dietary intake of arachidonic acid is almost entirely from eggs and is probably less than my dietary intake of EPA and DHA. I'm not sure that's a good thing.

Edited by Jay, 16 April 2010 - 06:20 PM.

[tunt01]

I go for all three.

that's my guess too. low total pufa, reasonably balanced from natural sources. I am probably going to take like 1g of fish oil a day, but that's about it.

one thing i noticed in playing w/ the NIH Lands's excel model is that when you move n-3/n-6 up at higher absolute levels, but still maintain a 1:1 ratio, it progressively predicts a worse outcome. higher PUFA even at 1:1 ratio is not desirable, according to the model. maybe it's all wrong. maybe this model is useless. my guess is that if there is a problem w/ this model it is at the low-end of the intake curve, like say only 100mg of n-3/n-6. most essential nutrients provide a U-shaped response, and this model doesn't conform to that notion.

nonetheless, the model suggests a lower total PUFA intake is desirable.

What is MR's argument against fish oil? Anybody have a good link?

i've not had time to look into this issue that MR raises. but here is a possible refutation of this inner membrane, lipid peroxidation issue.

http://www.crsociety...9401#msg-199401

[oehaut]

Interesting link. MR's concerns are all mechanistic speculation, no? I'm sure he's smart, but very smart people used to believe a lot of crap about cholesterol too.

Yes, but here's what he says at the end for this

I'm operating on the precautionary principle. A weaker standard of evidence is required to get me to AVOID something, on the basis that it might be BAD, than is required to get me to EMBRACE something, on the basis that it might be GOOD. Of course, strong evidence outweighs weaker evidence in all cases; here, however, we have no strong evidence (direct intervention study) to trump this weaker (correlational) evidence.

Interesting link. MR's concerns are all mechanistic speculation, no? I'm sure he's smart, but very smart people used to believe a lot of crap about cholesterol too.
(i) balanced (between 1:4 and 1:1) omega 3/6;

(ii) balanced 3/6 and reduced amounts of both; and/or

(iii) Only natural sources of 3/6, which generally contain various antioxidants to keep the oils from spoiling, probably in balance to the risk of spoilage (i.e., unsaturation, heat, and oxygen exposure).

I'd say probably ii, but, if 'm trying to keep PUFAs low, and that mean that I must skip on food regards as beneficials (nuts, oats) and need to use a supplement, such a vit E, which, using the precautionnary principle, are most of the time regards as bad, because not much supp. have huge amount of data backing them up as safe, i'm not sure this is a wise choice.

Edited by oehaut, 16 April 2010 - 06:42 PM.

[Jay]

Anybody give much thought to the fact that fish oil pills have a lot of elongated n-3's (EPA and DHA) while most dietary n-6 consumption is linoleic acid, which requires elongation by D6D to become arachidonic acid. Many things can interfere with that elongation process (CLA to name one that I know applies to me), with the result that little linoleic acid may get converted to arachidonic acid. My dietary intake of arachidonic acid is almost entirely from eggs and is probably less than my dietary intake of EPA and DHA. I'm not sure that's a good thing.

As I work through MR's doubts about fish oil, I realize that over-consumption of elongated n-3s is at the root of his concerns. It's all speculation and his is better than mine. However, consuming vegetabel oils should satisfy his concerns and that doesn't seem to work so well in actual people.

Let's look at what successful people ate: the Inuit (fish, seal, caribou), Kitavans (sweet potatoes, coconut, fish, fruit), Tokelauans (coconut, fish, fruit), Masai (cow), Lyon Cohort (olive oil, whole grains, pasta, fish, lean meat, fruits and vegetables). It seems likely that all these people got more elongated n-3s than ALA (except maybe the Lyon cohort) and more elongated n-3s than elongated n-6s.

I think my (i), (ii), (iii) thing is a pretty good target. It might make sense to try to reduce fish oil pill consumption as much as possible, relying more on grass fed dairy, omega 3 eggs, olive oil, and perhaps less than 1 gram from fish oil pills, taken with vit E or some other fat soluble antioxidant.

Edited by Jay, 16 April 2010 - 07:54 PM.