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#1 Guacamolium

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:08 AM


I first noticed this with the synergistic (for meant my best friend and his girl and the girls I was seeing) addition of pyritinol and NALT, which I simply called PyritiNalt over a year ago. But, because of the bad batch of COGNITIVE NUTRITIONS pyritinol capsules last year, the libido went. Has to do with dopamine receptors obviously, but maybe HAHA or someone more proficient in the mechanisms can explain why. Pyritinol is definitely out of the picture now leaving NALT. Since I haven't taken pyritinol in several months.

Anybody proficient enough to explain the loss of libido with a highly dopaminergic aganist? Maybe haha or another brazen biochemist? I'm confused why this has happened repeatedly with me and another person over the course of of a year. Drop in testosterone? D subtype blockage, what?

Edited by somethingtoxic, 29 April 2010 - 08:11 AM.


#2 haha

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 11:32 AM

Im definitly not a biochem, i only really know a couple of systems.
The chemistry of the brain is insane, there are so many pathways and variable peptides, theres 2000 g-protien coupled receptors.....
Pyridoxine seems to be a carry molecule in energy pathways, it will activate and supply energy, to effect mulitpule outcomes. This is mainly achieved via Pyridoxal phosphate but also Pyridoxal Sulfate(notice pyritinol is two of these molecules bound together). Sulfates behave very similarly to phosphates but are probally lower energy, with slower kenetics and potential act on completely different systems.
I would assume that your use of Pyridoxal distruped your system maybe through competitive inhibtion of pyridoxal phosphates, but it could be a down regulation of the production pyridoxal sulphate, it could also be over production of pyridoxal phosphates during the acute phase of use(neuropathy). The effects will be mediated downstream maybe in....or downstream of these respective systems.
Wikipedia, effects of pyridoxal phosphates
3.2Gluconeogenesis
3.3 Lipid metabolism
4.1 Amino acid metabolism
4.2 Neurotransmitter synthesis
4.3 Histamine synthesis
4.4 Hemoglobin synthesis and function
4.5 Gene expression

Furthermore there is strong evidence that while pyridoxine at low doses is safe and benefical, there is also strong evidence that it can cause acute neuropathies that usually fix on cessation. That is why it is recommend to not to take more than 100mg of B6, I assume your dose of pyritinol was much higher? It might be a bad idea taking one and not the other, and i would assume you shouldnt take more than 100mg for both pyrindoxines.

Some Ideas about what to do about it,
D2 agonist are used for libido enhancement
Go see an endocrinologist, get fully hormone tests and maybe start testosterone therapy.
Get lots of really challenging exercise
New Girl?
Experiencing novelty is really good for everybody, it increase intelligence quickly, so try something new whether its job,friends,personality,location,learning...... Become a Yes man(That movie has alot of truth in it)
It could also be caused by something else random

I couldnt think what NALT was, Definitly the first and last time Im going to help some guy with his libido

Edited by haha, 29 April 2010 - 11:34 AM.


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#3 Guacamolium

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 12:22 PM

Im definitly not a biochem, i only really know a couple of systems.
The chemistry of the brain is insane, there are so many pathways and variable peptides, theres 2000 g-protien coupled receptors.....
Pyridoxine seems to be a carry molecule in energy pathways, it will activate and supply energy, to effect mulitpule outcomes. This is mainly achieved via Pyridoxal phosphate but also Pyridoxal Sulfate(notice pyritinol is two of these molecules bound together). Sulfates behave very similarly to phosphates but are probally lower energy, with slower kenetics and potential act on completely different systems.
I would assume that your use of Pyridoxal distruped your system maybe through competitive inhibtion of pyridoxal phosphates, but it could be a down regulation of the production pyridoxal sulphate, it could also be over production of pyridoxal phosphates during the acute phase of use(neuropathy). The effects will be mediated downstream maybe in....or downstream of these respective systems.
Wikipedia, effects of pyridoxal phosphates
3.2Gluconeogenesis
3.3 Lipid metabolism
4.1 Amino acid metabolism
4.2 Neurotransmitter synthesis
4.3 Histamine synthesis
4.4 Hemoglobin synthesis and function
4.5 Gene expression

Furthermore there is strong evidence that while pyridoxine at low doses is safe and benefical, there is also strong evidence that it can cause acute neuropathies that usually fix on cessation. That is why it is recommend to not to take more than 100mg of B6, I assume your dose of pyritinol was much higher? It might be a bad idea taking one and not the other, and i would assume you shouldnt take more than 100mg for both pyrindoxines.

Some Ideas about what to do about it,
D2 agonist are used for libido enhancement
Go see an endocrinologist, get fully hormone tests and maybe start testosterone therapy.
Get lots of really challenging exercise
New Girl?
Experiencing novelty is really good for everybody, it increase intelligence quickly, so try something new whether its job,friends,personality,location,learning...... Become a Yes man(That movie has alot of truth in it)
It could also be caused by something else random

I couldnt think what NALT was, Definitly the first and last time Im going to help some guy with his libido


Did you not read? NALT was the sole factor not pyritinol. N-Acetyl -L-Tyrosine = NALT. Your main focus was on pyritinol - which is NOW determined not to be the culprit - and it doesn't have to do with girls in my life. My libido is as normal as any guy whether a girl is there or not, but on NALT, it strangely goes away. Weird for a dopaminergic supp to do that wouldn't you say? Definite alternate mechanisms going on...

EDIT: Although now that I think about it - cocaine from years ago would kill libido faster than anything and it's the king of DA agonists - recreationally at least, but GHB is a DA agonist as well and has libido enhancing effects. Well I'm puzzled. Dopamine - you;ve done it again, confused the living fuck out of me.

Edited by somethingtoxic, 29 April 2010 - 12:30 PM.


#4 LabRat84

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 03:54 PM

Im definitly not a biochem, i only really know a couple of systems.
The chemistry of the brain is insane, there are so many pathways and variable peptides, theres 2000 g-protien coupled receptors.....
Pyridoxine seems to be a carry molecule in energy pathways, it will activate and supply energy, to effect mulitpule outcomes. This is mainly achieved via Pyridoxal phosphate but also Pyridoxal Sulfate(notice pyritinol is two of these molecules bound together). Sulfates behave very similarly to phosphates but are probally lower energy, with slower kenetics and potential act on completely different systems.
I would assume that your use of Pyridoxal distruped your system maybe through competitive inhibtion of pyridoxal phosphates, but it could be a down regulation of the production pyridoxal sulphate, it could also be over production of pyridoxal phosphates during the acute phase of use(neuropathy). The effects will be mediated downstream maybe in....or downstream of these respective systems.
Wikipedia, effects of pyridoxal phosphates
3.2Gluconeogenesis
3.3 Lipid metabolism
4.1 Amino acid metabolism
4.2 Neurotransmitter synthesis
4.3 Histamine synthesis
4.4 Hemoglobin synthesis and function
4.5 Gene expression

Furthermore there is strong evidence that while pyridoxine at low doses is safe and benefical, there is also strong evidence that it can cause acute neuropathies that usually fix on cessation. That is why it is recommend to not to take more than 100mg of B6, I assume your dose of pyritinol was much higher? It might be a bad idea taking one and not the other, and i would assume you shouldnt take more than 100mg for both pyrindoxines.

Some Ideas about what to do about it,
D2 agonist are used for libido enhancement
Go see an endocrinologist, get fully hormone tests and maybe start testosterone therapy.
Get lots of really challenging exercise
New Girl?
Experiencing novelty is really good for everybody, it increase intelligence quickly, so try something new whether its job,friends,personality,location,learning...... Become a Yes man(That movie has alot of truth in it)
It could also be caused by something else random

I couldnt think what NALT was, Definitly the first and last time Im going to help some guy with his libido


Did you not read? NALT was the sole factor not pyritinol. N-Acetyl -L-Tyrosine = NALT. Your main focus was on pyritinol - which is NOW determined not to be the culprit - and it doesn't have to do with girls in my life. My libido is as normal as any guy whether a girl is there or not, but on NALT, it strangely goes away. Weird for a dopaminergic supp to do that wouldn't you say? Definite alternate mechanisms going on...

EDIT: Although now that I think about it - cocaine from years ago would kill libido faster than anything and it's the king of DA agonists - recreationally at least, but GHB is a DA agonist as well and has libido enhancing effects. Well I'm puzzled. Dopamine - you;ve done it again, confused the living fuck out of me.


First off, check to see if there was anything else in your NALT formulation. For example, Source Naturals includes B6 and folate.

And by libido, do you mean your desire or your physical response to stimulation?

Dopamine release is modulated by different mechanisms in different areas of the brain. For example, in the midbrain, D2 autoreceptors produce feedback inhibition. Other parts of the brain rely on dopamine uptake. In the cortex, dopamine is broken down without feedback inhibition.

The role of dopamine in sex drive is still not entirely understood. It likely involves reward pathways (mesolimbic system) and hormonal regulation (the hypothalamic/pituitary axis).

D3 receptors have been implicated in hypersexuality: http://neuro.psychia...t/full/20/4/496
Ropinirole and pramipexole, both D3 agonists, are reported to have side-effects of hypersexuality and are used to counter decreased libido from other medications. However, they're also implicated in compulsive behaviors like gambling.

Administration of levodopa (the intermediate between tyrosine and dopamine) will increase libido, so it's surprising that tyrosine decreases it. It's a good possibility that part of the n-acetyl-l-tyrosine is turned into tyramine in the brain, which would make it act like amphetamines.

#5 chrono

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 09:02 PM

My feeling is that D1/D2/D3 are involved in sexual function. Pramipexole is a D2/D3 agaonist. Bromocriptine is D2, and also has pro-sexual effects. The paper Dopamine and sexual function has some interesting agonist/antagonist experiments involving D1/D2 which suggest both of these are modulatory as well. But many other neurotransmitters (5-HT, NE, NO, oxytocin) contribute to sexual function too. Though from personal experience I'd say that DA and perhaps NE are most obviously implied in mental libido.

Tyrosine isn't a dopamine agonist, it's a dopamine precursor which (potentially) increases DA release. L-DOPA (another DA precursor) has been shown to sometimes be pro-sexual in PD patients. Methylphenidate and amphetamine, a DA/NE reuptake inhibitor and RI+releaser, respectively, can also increase libido. The few times I've tried NALT so far, effect on my libido (which is decreased due to tramadol) has been pronounced.

Did NALT increase your libido when you first started? How often have you been taking it? I'm just starting research into tyrosine, but I found this in one of your old posts:

I actually have to separate the two sometimes because the build-up of NALT starts depleting dopamine due to the sharp bell curve, which I can definitely feel.

It sounds like the decreased libido you're describing is probably due to lowered dopamine. Not sure how tolerance works with this, but if you're taking it too often, maybe you're depleting tyrosine hydroxylase and creating a bottleneck for endogenous dopamine production? Or if it's been a long course of frequent use, maybe some down-regulation of the actual receptors is going on?

Edited by chrono, 29 April 2010 - 10:49 PM.


#6 haha

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 11:00 PM

Im pretty sure i read your post disambigiously,can you not read what you wrote. Why would you take a supplement that decreases your libido?

#7 chrono

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 11:26 PM

^^ original post did state that libido went because of bad batch of pyritinol. It was a little ambiguous, but I assumed from the title that he thinks NALT is now the causation because pyritinol has been removed and libido is still low?

Re-reading your reply, it sounds like your libido is only low while actually on NALT? Not after? Are there any other paradoxical reactions going on, or do you still get the right mental effects from it?

Edited by chrono, 29 April 2010 - 11:33 PM.


#8 Guacamolium

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 12:02 AM

Im pretty sure i read your post disambigiously,can you not read what you wrote. Why would you take a supplement that decreases your libido?


Yeah, I was rushed and could've clarified that last year I was taking pyritinalt and this year I'm taking NALT and have always had no real sex urge while on both and just NALT - best friend noticed the effects too. Pinned it down to NALT but really can't understand why, as it increases dopamine to all 5 receptor subtypes. Don't really mind the side-effect as long as it's not involved with lowered testosterone or DHT levels.

#9 Guacamolium

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 12:12 AM

My feeling is that D1/D2/D3 are involved in sexual function. Pramipexole is a D2/D3 agaonist. Bromocriptine is D2, and also has pro-sexual effects. The paper Dopamine and sexual function has some interesting agonist/antagonist experiments involving D1/D2 which suggest both of these are modulatory as well. But many other neurotransmitters (5-HT, NE, NO, oxytocin) contribute to sexual function too. Though from personal experience I'd say that DA and perhaps NE are most obviously implied in mental libido.

Tyrosine isn't a dopamine agonist, it's a dopamine precursor which (potentially) increases DA release. L-DOPA (another DA precursor) has been shown to sometimes be pro-sexual in PD patients. Methylphenidate and amphetamine, a DA/NE reuptake inhibitor and RI+releaser, respectively, can also increase libido. The few times I've tried NALT so far, effect on my libido (which is decreased due to tramadol) has been pronounced.

Did NALT increase your libido when you first started? How often have you been taking it? I'm just starting research into tyrosine, but I found this in one of your old posts:

I actually have to separate the two sometimes because the build-up of NALT starts depleting dopamine due to the sharp bell curve, which I can definitely feel.

It sounds like the decreased libido you're describing is probably due to lowered dopamine. Not sure how tolerance works with this, but if you're taking it too often, maybe you're depleting tyrosine hydroxylase and creating a bottleneck for endogenous dopamine production? Or if it's been a long course of frequent use, maybe some down-regulation of the actual receptors is going on?



Wow, you pulled up an old post of my NALT usage. Yeah, I usually just dose once a day now - seems to do the same job anyway, but back at that time I was on some heavy CE'ing stacking. Usually around 200-300mgs once a day now, but strangely no libido I would notice. I don't think I'm taking too much because I usually take a day or two off of almost every cerebral enhancer I take, except Fish Oil and B complex. Been kinda sticking with MPH experiments while I have the script. I wish I could see if NALT lowers testosterone binding in the brain or something. Eh, I guess it'll remain a mystery.

#10 chrono

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 12:38 AM

ha! Not stalking you or anything, but I just started taking NALT this week and you're one of like two people who mentioned anything about tolerance (was in my notes). I don't have any good papers yet, but discussion here has pointed to tyrosine hydroxylase (which converts NA/L-tyrosine into the next precursor) being the rate-limiting factor in how quickly it can be used to manufacture more dopamine.

If you've been taking this for over a year, one day off a week is probably not doing much to prevent tolerance, or replenish the TH. I'd think about taking at least a week off from this, and seeing if it restores normal functioning. And especially if you're using something else which increases DA, build a little more time off in each week.

Could be something to do with testosterone, but I really think long-term usage and two possible systems of tolerance/depletion might explain this more easily.

#11 Guacamolium

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 03:32 AM

ha! Not stalking you or anything, but I just started taking NALT this week and you're one of like two people who mentioned anything about tolerance (was in my notes). I don't have any good papers yet, but discussion here has pointed to tyrosine hydroxylase (which converts NA/L-tyrosine into the next precursor) being the rate-limiting factor in how quickly it can be used to manufacture more dopamine.

If you've been taking this for over a year, one day off a week is probably not doing much to prevent tolerance, or replenish the TH. I'd think about taking at least a week off from this, and seeing if it restores normal functioning. And especially if you're using something else which increases DA, build a little more time off in each week.

Could be something to do with testosterone, but I really think long-term usage and two possible systems of tolerance/depletion might explain this more easily.


Yeah, you'll see me as a person here that stands by NALT - despite this thread. I have taken actually a couple months off of it with no withdrawals, but I honestly don't think my usage is overboard enough to create this loss of sexual desire. I searched pubmed before this, sorry about the shitty amibiguity and unprofessional clarification beginning it, but there is some sort of unexamined pathway that is being exploited to turn off libido - not ED. I swear we'll eventually find the answer in testosterone being blocked by the GABA receptors because of some sort of contraindication with NALT. Again, it doesn't really bother me that much, just if I get a smoking hot GF sometime soon I might want to go light on the NALT and moderate on the HGW. :p

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#12 chrono

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 04:35 AM

I have taken actually a couple months off of it with no withdrawals, but I honestly don't think my usage is overboard enough to create this loss of sexual desire.

Were you getting the libido suppression before you took this break, and did it help? Did you find the effects of NALT stronger when you came back? And what about now, do you find your libido to be normal if you take a day off?

I don't think your usage is overboard, just that it's been going on for so long, and it affects a transmitter which is pretty hard to modulate sustainably. Whether it's dopamine, tyrosine hydroxylase or some f-ed up testosterone thing, I think more days off per week would help fix it. Just keep in mind if girls show up.

I'm actually finding 350mg NALT makes me a little "foggy" in my higher reasoning. Compared to piracetam/ALCAR (or in addition to), I have a lot harder time writing eloquently, or reasoning out replies. But I have found it pleasantly motivating and socializing, which is really what I'm going for with dopaminergics right now anyway.

Do you ever get headaches from it? I did the second day I took it, but took a day off and it was fine today. And do you ever take a double dose, or another dose later in the day?




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