• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans


Adverts help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.


Photo
- - - - -

Election 2004


  • Please log in to reply
117 replies to this topic

#61 123456

  • Guest
  • 295 posts
  • 0

Posted 27 October 2004 - 04:52 PM

I was watching "CNN" two or so nights ago and they were doing a biography on Nader. Nader seems to be a good guy. CNN told of the guy fighting big coperation such as the food companies to list the exact ingredients they use in their products. I can see why people still vote for him although he has a nearly impossible chance of winning the election. Such a waste of a good person, Nader will live and die without making a large mark in politics.

#62 DJS

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 5,798 posts
  • 11
  • Location:Taipei
  • NO

Posted 28 October 2004 - 12:18 AM

Hey 123456,

I also caught the Nader biography on CNN. I thought it was a fair portrayal of Nader as the archetype of consumer advocates. The seat belt and the air bag are the two biggies of course... Nader has changed our world for the better in many ways.

So yeah, he's a great consumer advocate, but I've never found him appealing as a Presidential candidate. And no, I'm not just saying this because I support Kerry. [tung] This is completely subjective opinion, but during the biography Nader reminded me of my Mom's second husband (Chris) -- inflexible in thought and life style. Now granted, Nader is on the exact opposite side of the spectrum from Chris, but his mannerisms and "quirks" are the same. Like wearing the same combat boots for 30 years. [wis]

On a more serious note, my main objection with the Greens and Naderites is their support of the Precautionary Principle

#63 jaydfox

  • Guest
  • 6,214 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Atlanta, Georgia

Posted 28 October 2004 - 12:27 AM

Such a waste of a good person, Nader will live and die without making a large mark in politics.

I disagree, he has already made a mark. He may not have changed the outcome of elections (perhaps in individual states, but as far as I know he hasn't changed the victor in an election), but he changed the way the politics were played, even if only a little. He made his mark. It could have been a much bigger one, but let's not downplay the mark he's made.

That said, I think he's becoming obsolete in the face of newer independent challengers. It'll be interesting to see what effect those newcomers make.

But until we get a new electoral system, change won't ever really reach the highest levels, nor will we ever fully break free of the shackles of this ludicrous two-party system.

We need to get rid of the electoral college, so that Presidential candidates listen to the needs of the whole country, and don't just pander to the swing states. Not all votes are equal under the electoral college, and that's just ludicrous, whether you're Libertarian or not: Democrats and Republicans alike should be demanding the elimination of the electoral college, or at a minimum, a dividing of electoral votes based on the ratios of the popular votes within the state. (But since many of the states have only 3 to 5 votes, the rounding involved would likely result in lawsuits and skewed representation: eliminating the electoral college is really the only feasible option.)

Second, we need something other than the "first-past-the-post" system. The system is one of the least fair systems, the most open to strategic voting and the least representative in the rare occurance when there are lots and lots of candidates.

I don't necessarily care what replaces the first-past-the-post system: almost all of the alternatives are better. We should of course try for the "best", but I'd settle for "better" in a heartbeat.

sponsored ad

  • Advert

#64 Lazarus Long

  • Life Member, Guardian
  • 8,116 posts
  • 242
  • Location:Northern, Western Hemisphere of Earth, Usually of late, New York

Posted 01 November 2004 - 02:57 PM

Last day to think about it before *doing the deed* though my wife has already voted in Palm Beach County under Florida law. So let's see what has unfolded in this last week:

Bin Laden subtly comes out for Bush by implying he is for Kerry but really he is just thumbing his nose at all America and telling us to shove it. Most serious foreign policy analysts don't spin this for the public but figure we (the US) will respond like idiots and finish destabilizing the Mideast as per bin Laden's plans by getting us to do his worst dirty work.

A report is released demonstrating that the invasion and subsequent occupation has cost 100 thousand Iraqi lives.

The Iranians have said they are going ahead with their nuclear fuel enrichment program and a separate report has been issued, I believe by the IAEA and the State Department, that no apparent work is proceeding at the known unclear sites in Iran. Huh? [huh]

In other words the work is going on deeply *underground* and no longer makes a reasonably soft target, or is in fact now going on at *whereabouts unknown.* [glasses]

Oil has reached all time record highs and retreated from this peak price but as T-Boone says:

*We will never see oil below 40 dollars a barrel again".

The deficit has is accelerating at unprecedented levels and growth is flat with a great likelihood of fuel prices driving a serious inflation rate in the near future.

They are still *officially* counting the ballot in Afghanistan and the violence on the ground in Iraq is approaching the same level as *during* the invasion but now is also laying waste to the interim governments' fragile level of confidence among the population and provoking us to escalate our engagement.

The Bush administration may have shot itself in the foot as the IRS has ordered the evaluation of the NAACP's legal status as *tax exempt*. This may be a legitimate claim, but in the quest for the majority of African American vote, it couldn't have been more poorly timed.

Pharmaceutical supply/cost and Stem Cells along with Insurance Reform (what most mistake for Health Care Reform) have become important issues of debate between the two major parties that have become highlighted for *elderly voters* by the combined failure of the markets and government to *secure* the supply of Flu vaccine from both questions of quality control and inadequate production to drive scarcity driven profit.

The Gallop (as well as most other poler's) Poll is showing the closest election in US history with the most divided population since the Civil War and the most new voters since teh Vietnam War era. Both parties have taken the unprecedented preemptive step of sending phalanxes of lawyers with lots of money (and perhaps a few guns (sic)) into every probable *battleground State* and many more with the idea that they must prepare for a post election *legal contest* of voting qualifications, the outcome, and whether or not widespread conspiracies are in effect in numerous states to have prevented tens of thousands of people around the nation from voting.

Hey, these are just some highlights for our historical record and I will come back later and tag some links to my comments but here is one example of how hotly contested the race is becoming.

Have fun, read (watch) it and weep. [tung]

Liberation

Interesting times we live in ehh? [wis]

Oh and the biggest surprise in October was that there was none.

Or perhaps so many that everybody is numb and doesn't notice.


drumroll........................................................................
..................

#65 Lazarus Long

  • Life Member, Guardian
  • 8,116 posts
  • 242
  • Location:Northern, Western Hemisphere of Earth, Usually of late, New York

Posted 01 November 2004 - 03:24 PM

Oh and I almost forgot; paleontologists have formally announced they have found us a long lost brother/sister in the form of *little people*.

http://story.news.ya...ence_hominid_dc

Science Online
Evolutionary Shrinkage: Stone Age Homo find offers small surprise
http://www.sciencene...041030/fob1.asp

I am sure there will much bragging and contention before this issue is settled and while I consider it, along with many other juicy stories of real significance, it has no direct play in the electoral process, just the long term *scheme of memes.*

#66 jaydfox

  • Guest
  • 6,214 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Atlanta, Georgia

Posted 01 November 2004 - 05:22 PM

Geez, Lazarus, after all that stuff you pointed out, if I didn't know better, I'd say the shit's hit the fan... No wait, maybe it has...

Does anyone else get a foreboding sense of oil industry collusion to keep gas prices down? Oil hit $35 a barrel a while back, and gas jumped to $2.39 for the cheap stuff in my home town in California. I was just back there for my dad's funeral, and gas prices are at $2.45 a gallon, with oil prices over 60% higher than before!!! The oil industry must be crappin' their pants in fear that Kerry's going to win, and they're willing to sacrifice what should be "record profit season" for their future bottom line.

That's how I see it anyway. Maybe there's a logical reason that gas hasn't hit $2.80 or $2.99 a gallon yet...

#67 DJS

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 5,798 posts
  • 11
  • Location:Taipei
  • NO

Posted 02 November 2004 - 05:22 PM

Oh that's just too rich. Electoral-vote.com currently has it at Kerry 262 Bush 261 with one state remaining official tied -- New Jersey. Hehe, of course these numbers mean nothing. :p

#68 123456

  • Guest
  • 295 posts
  • 0

Posted 02 November 2004 - 08:49 PM

Hopefully Kerry wins today.

#69 DJS

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 5,798 posts
  • 11
  • Location:Taipei
  • NO

Posted 02 November 2004 - 08:52 PM

I wasn't aware that you were supporting Kerry 123...

#70 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,042 posts
  • 2,001
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 02 November 2004 - 09:02 PM

Last day to think about it before *doing the deed* though my wife has already voted in Palm Beach County under Florida law


I heard about the electioneering attempt by New York voters a couple months ago. I am sad to hear your wife is participating. Legal, but definitely violating the spirit of the law and constitution.

So much for the constitutional protection against the "tyranny of the majority".

So much for deciding the future of your local area. What about referenda? What about local school district decisions? Your wife could be voting for a bunch of buffoons "down the ticket" who are running in Palm Beach county.

....but it is legal, so that makes it all good, Right? Remember, once you set this precedent (not voting where you live) it could come back to haunt you big time.

I am proud to vote in my district and for Badnarick.

#71 123456

  • Guest
  • 295 posts
  • 0

Posted 02 November 2004 - 09:30 PM

Well who else to support out of the two who have a chance of winning? Nader does not have much of a chance, therefore Kerry is the best choice out of the remaining two. Ah, I can't vote, lol, me live in Canada.

#72 DJS

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 5,798 posts
  • 11
  • Location:Taipei
  • NO

Posted 02 November 2004 - 09:44 PM

Hey Mind,

I strongly disagree. :p The electoral college system is a flawed institution which needs to be dismantled. Any means by which the system can be subverted legally is, in my mind, a good thing. It is only through a major, undeniable (and well publicized) subversion of the system that we can hope to casting the light of day on the stupidity of the electoral system and the urgent need for REAL reform.

DonS

#73 DJS

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 5,798 posts
  • 11
  • Location:Taipei
  • NO

Posted 02 November 2004 - 09:48 PM

As expected, I pushed the button for Kerry.

Anyone else here at ImmInst care to reveal their decision??? Curious, very very curious [!]

#74 jaydfox

  • Guest
  • 6,214 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Atlanta, Georgia

Posted 02 November 2004 - 10:42 PM

The electoral college system is a flawed institution which needs to be dismantled. Any means by which the system can be subverted legally is, in my mind, a good thing. It is only through a major, undeniable (and well publicized) subversion of the system that we can hope to casting the light of day on the stupidity of the electoral system and the urgent need for REAL reform.

Hey, see my similar thoughts in the presidential election poll thread. In that thread I discuss how I voted as well.

Last day to think about it before *doing the deed* though my wife has already voted in Palm Beach County under Florida law


I heard about the electioneering attempt by New York voters a couple months ago. I am sad to hear your wife is participating. Legal, but definitely violating the spirit of the law and constitution.

So much for the constitutional protection against the "tyranny of the majority".

So much for deciding the future of your local area. What about referenda? What about local school district decisions? Your wife could be voting for a bunch of buffoons "down the ticket" who are running in Palm Beach county.

....but it is legal, so that makes it all good, Right? Remember, once you set this precedent (not voting where you live) it could come back to haunt you big time.

Mind, could you clarify? I think you might be confusing the issue. The tactical voting that some are engaged in, wherein they "swap" votes with voters in other states, is not the same as actually voting in those states. The only candidates which voters in different states could swap are the national ones, and at present, the President is the only national candidate; all others are state and local. I can't vote for local officials in Florida. But if I were a Kerry supporter, I could vote for Nader in California in exchange for a Nader-supporter living in Florida voting for Kerry in Florida.

And it's a GOOD thing if it sets a precedent. If it sets a precedent, then it means we need to close the loophole, not decry the precedent. I was willing to vote this way as much for the effect of casting a vote of protest against the electoral college as for the effect of casting a vote of protest against the Bush administration.

"Tyranny of the majority", you say? What about the fact that a handful of states, representing a small fraction of the people living in this country, have the privilege of being the ones who TRULY decide who the next President is? Why should undecided voters in Colorado, Florida, Ohio, or any other state be the ones whose minds and hearts the candidates need to win in order to gain the Presidency?

Perhaps they ARE more critically thinking individuals than the masses, and maybe they ARE trying harder to understand the issues and not merely be sheep led by blind party affiliation. But perhaps they're just indecisive morons. The point is, I live in a non-swing state, and I think my vote is WAY more informed than that of most voters in swing states, and my vote counts for precisely DICK when it comes to deciding the outcome of this election. That, my friend, is tyranny! I'll subvert such a system any day of the week in order to cast my vote of protest!

#75 DJS

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 5,798 posts
  • 11
  • Location:Taipei
  • NO

Posted 02 November 2004 - 10:43 PM

5 PM; Zogby predicts big win for Kerry 311-213. Looking over his methodology... [glasses]

ZOGBY

hhmm, I don't understand how Zog can have Bush up by 2.5% in Ohio, but because things are "trending Kerry" he throws the electoral votes to Kerry. That seems extremely sloppy. [ang]

#76 lemon

  • Guest
  • 389 posts
  • -2

Posted 02 November 2004 - 10:45 PM

My assumption is that 80-90% of the ImmInst members are pulling for Kerry. Bush makes decisions that stunt scientific study, stem cell research as a prime example, based on rigid religious idiology.

#77 DJS

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 5,798 posts
  • 11
  • Location:Taipei
  • NO

Posted 02 November 2004 - 10:49 PM

4 PM exit polls from over at Slate

Afternoon Exit Polls
The latest batch.
By Jack Shafer
Updated Tuesday, Nov. 2, 2004, at 2:29 PM PT

Florida
Kerry 52
Bush 48

Ohio
Kerry 52
Bush 47

Michigan
Kerry 51
Bush 48

Pennsylvania
Kerry 58
Bush 42

Iowa
Kerry 50
Bush 48

Wisconsin
Kerry 53
Bush 47

Minnesota
Kerry 57
Bush 42

New Hampshire
Kerry 58
Bush 41

Maine
Kerry 55
Bush 44

New Mexico
Kerry 49
Bush 49

Nevada
Kerry 48
Bush 49

Colorado
Kerry 49
Bush 50

Arkansas
Kerry 45
Bush 54

#78 jaydfox

  • Guest
  • 6,214 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Atlanta, Georgia

Posted 02 November 2004 - 11:15 PM

Graphs please, I'm an impatient youth.

#79 DJS

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 5,798 posts
  • 11
  • Location:Taipei
  • NO

Posted 03 November 2004 - 01:07 AM

World votes Kerry 77% to 9%

The total global votes are as follows:
Candidates Votes Percentage
Bush 10221 9.0%
Kerry 87446 77.1%
Cobb 4347 3.8%
Nader 7622 6.7%
Brown 2292 2.0%
Peroutka 345 0.3%
Badnarik 1279 1.1%

The region specific votes are as follows:
Region Bush Kerry Other Total
Africa 192 (12.1%) 1146 (71%) 259 (16.9%) 1559
Asia 1324 (14.8%) 6778 (75.9%) 819 (9.3%) 8921
Australia 681 (8.5%) 5725 (76.2%) 1103 (15.3%) 7509
Canada 780 (9.1%) 6377 (74.2%) 1430 (16.7%) 8587
Central & South America 565 (9.8%) 4599 (79.5%) 622 (10.7%) 5786
Europe 6378 (7.9%) 62466(77.8%) 11506 (14.3%) 80350
Middle East 296 (37%) 365 (45.6%) 139 (17.4%) 800

The top-voting countries were:
Country Votes
Germany 32315
United Kingdom 17641
Canada 8587
Poland 7829
Spain 3932
Japan 3885
New Zealand 3105
Netherlands 2582
France 2269
Switzerland 2235

#80 DJS

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 5,798 posts
  • 11
  • Location:Taipei
  • NO

Posted 03 November 2004 - 01:09 AM

Just saw a few interesting exit polls...Badnarick seems to be showing stronger than expected in some battle ground states...could hurt Bush.

#81 jaydfox

  • Guest
  • 6,214 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Atlanta, Georgia

Posted 03 November 2004 - 01:24 AM

Now I know Libertarians may appeal to some Republicans, but I thought typically the third parties hurt the Dems more...

Actually, there's a guy at work who's strongly pro-Bush, and he's so caught up in the anti-terrorism mania that he would like to see way MORE money spent on Homeland Security. Another $200 billion to potentially save a few thousands lives, and more likely, only a few hundred, a few dozen, or none at all. Essentially, a cost per life saved of tens or hundreds of millions of dollars.

I asked whether he thought this should come at the expense of social programs and research which could save lives at a much lower cost per life, and he said he felt the ONLY things the government should be spending money on are the military, homeland security, intelligence, and the federal justice system (and at least a minimal bureaucracy to run them, I suppose). No social programs (e.g. no Medicare, no Social Security, no food stamps, no welfare, no education spending, etc.), no medical research, no tax loopholes which effectively fund certain types of activities. I don't know, is that sort of Libertarian? It seems so on the surface, though I'm sure a true Libertarian could tell me the differences and the nuances.

#82 DJS

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 5,798 posts
  • 11
  • Location:Taipei
  • NO

Posted 03 November 2004 - 01:32 AM

Ah, I know I'm being overly optimistic, but all of the exit polls in the swing states (FL, OH, PA) have Kerry up big. Since, I must call it a night I will be bold and call this race now for Kerry - decisively. [lol] Maybe the pollsters should have called some people on their cell phones...

#83 eternaltraveler

  • Guest, Guardian
  • 6,471 posts
  • 155
  • Location:Silicon Valley, CA

Posted 03 November 2004 - 08:30 AM

I will be bold and call this race now for Kerry - decisively.


big mistake on that one.

#84

  • Lurker
  • 0

Posted 03 November 2004 - 08:54 AM

Doesn't look like Kerry can pull this one out... unfortunate.

#85 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,042 posts
  • 2,001
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 03 November 2004 - 01:52 PM

I think the exit poll companies forgot to take into account the party affiliation of the interviewees. My guess is that a lot of Democrats voted early because there was a lot of pent up hatred. They couldn't wait to vote. They were the ones in line early in the day. Voters of other parties got their votes in, they just weren't in such a hurry.

#86 jaydfox

  • Guest
  • 6,214 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Atlanta, Georgia

Posted 03 November 2004 - 03:56 PM

I think the exit poll companies forgot to take into account the party affiliation of the interviewees.

dailykos.com is alleging fraud, most likely due to the diebold machines. The exit poll numbers in EVERY state EXCEPT Ohio and Florida were accurate to within a couple points, and both of those states were WAY off. Either a vast number of people in those states lied, or the exit polls were right and there was election tampering.

Personally, I wouldn't put it past people in those states to lie, since they are swing states and they might have wanted to hype up the election (wait, it would mean that the liars were predominately Bush-supporters!). So maybe it wasn't election tampering. Still, one blog raised an interesting set of questions:

Who can you trust?
-Ohio/Florida voter reports to exit pollsters.
-Ohio/Florida polling station results via Diebold.

Another interesting thing to think about: Bush seems to have overwhelmingly brought his supporters to the voting booths based on moral values, not his handling of the war. In states where the war in Iraq was considered the key issue (California, New York, etc.), Kerry won. In states where moral values were considered the key issue (most of the midwest), Bush won.

So, Bush is pandering to "moral values". Ban gay marriage, right?

Massachusetts, where gay marriage is legal, where the state went heavily to Kerry: Lowest divorce rate in the country!

The Bible Belt states, such as Georgia where I live, went not only heavily to Bush but even in the state and House races. For the first time since the Reconstruction over 130 years ago, Georgia has elected both chambers of the legislature with a majority of Republicans.

But the Bible Belt states have divorce rates 50% higher than the rest of the country on average!

So let's see, Bush supporters have higher divorce rates, they lie at exit polls in Ohio and Florida (assuming the election wasn't rigged), and yet they claim that THEY are the ones who care about moral values. A bit hypocritical, don't you think? This country is pretty damn sad, that's all I've got to say.

#87 scottl

  • Guest
  • 2,177 posts
  • 2

Posted 03 November 2004 - 04:56 PM

Uhhh the exit polls said the same thing last time. The explanation I heard said something about the early polls coming from the cities where dems usual do better.

A democratic colleague said he could not vote for Kerry. PLEASE give us a better dem choice next time.

oh and Cosmos is this really true: voting in canada is not anonomyous?

"Your votes are anonymous? Another reason you guys are lucky. Here in Canada we use mostly paper ballots. Each ballot has a number and each number corresponds to a name on a list. A couple of years ago a veteran wrote a letter to his Member of Parliament asking for help dealing with a government agency. The MP?s written response was ?why should I help you when you supported my opponent during the last election.? The claim was that this info was based this on a yard sign the veteran had. As I recall the MP (a Liberal) apologized but was not disciplined. Pretty sick huh? "
"

#88 123456

  • Guest
  • 295 posts
  • 0

Posted 03 November 2004 - 07:56 PM

Kerry conceded defeat, not a good day for the U.S. It leads me to wonder once again what if he were president? I do not think Bush will ever run the country better than Kerry even after this election. I do not think Bush will change his arrogance, ignoring the constant violence in everyday Iraq and such; Overall being a more efficient leader than Kerry would be of the most powerful nation in the world. Well the people have spoken. Hmm, in one way I would like him to screw up more so I can laught at the ones who voted for him, Still, I do not wish any terrorist attacks etc. on the U.S Citizens due to Bush's inability to lead.

#89 jaydfox

  • Guest
  • 6,214 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Atlanta, Georgia

Posted 03 November 2004 - 08:13 PM

Kerry conceded defeat, not a good day for the U.S.

In my opinion, California's Proposition 71 was more important than the Presidency. Kerry had only promised a third of the funding of Prop 71, and that would have been subject to voter review in 2008. Prop 71 locks in funding for 10 years. The lives saved by the cures will far outweigh the lives lost in Iraq, and short of massive wars in Iran and/or North Korea (which are more likely under Bush, in my opinion, and more to the point, they're likely), possibly involving nukes, I think we come out ahead in terms of human lives. Now the precendents and the effects on the coming century may be more profound than I can understand, so this could still be a huge loss when we look back from 2050 or 2104.

#90 kevin

  • Member, Guardian
  • 2,779 posts
  • 822

Posted 03 November 2004 - 09:47 PM

It is a dark day for the world that will last four more years.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users