<BJKlein> Thanks All for stopping by..
<BJKlein> Official Chat Begins Now..
<EmilG> Yay.
<BJKlein> Topic: Leaders In Immortality
<BJKlein> Who are they, where are they leading us?
<BJKlein> I'll go ahead and open it up now to all comments..
<BJKlein> and we'll start by focusing on one person at a time...
<BJKlein> anyone like to make a suggestion?
<Utnapishtim> First off I think you need to sharply distinguish between immortality cheerleaders/popularisers
<BJKlein> OK... let's do that..
<Utnapishtim> and those who are doing research financially supporting the drive to achieve it
<BJKlein> My definition is someone who's putting their money where their mouth is..
<Utnapishtim> In the first category I would put Guys like Ben Bova
<BJKlein> and their mouth needs to be saying something like physical immortality is possible and good
<BJKlein> Yes... Ben is up there in my mind
<Utnapishtim> My gut instinct tends to agree. There is I suppose something of a question mark over whether researchers should make radical life extension an explicit or implicit goal of the work
<BJKlein> We'll in terms of scientist that depend on grants and credibility, there are probably more out there than we know about...
<Utnapishtim> I think that the situation you have now where the reseachers keep fairly quiet is perhaps not a bad one
<BJKlein> but, the ones working with www.lef.com are probably a good bet
<Utnapishtim> I think Eliezers concept of shock levels is highly useful in this regard
<BJKlein> I would have to disagree Utnapishtim.. in keeping quite
<Utnapishtim> in that they are or that it is a good idea?
<BJKlein> I believe the quieter we are about physical immortality, the more people will die
<Utnapishtim> I understand that point of view
<BJKlein> It's already hard to get funding.. and such..
<BJKlein> yeh
<Utnapishtim> but what I am also concerned about is the negative reaction overt research on immortality may receive from the public and from governments
<BJKlein> We'll if we were to do a mini-shock level assessment... it would probaly look something like this..
<Utnapishtim> I am thinking of the publics reaction to genetically modified foods and cloning
<Utnapishtim> both fairly innocuous developments in comparison to radical life extension
<BJKlein> ISL 1 Believes in an higher power that will take care of ya
<BJKlein> ISL = Immortality Shock Level
<BJKlein> ISL 2 = Does not believe in a higher power but in some sort of higher power
<Utnapishtim> like a natural cycle?
<BJKlein> ISL 3 = does not believe in an after life, or a higher power, but does not believe in physical immortality because it's impossible
<Utnapishtim> we should not violate?
<BJKlein> maybe...
<BJKlein> yeh.. you could lump those into ISL 2
<Nus> ISL 0 = dead :/
<BJKlein> and then ISL 4 would be those that are actively pushing toward physical immortality, have a cryonics policy etc..
<BJKlein> heh.. ISL = Dead!!
<BJKlein> ISL -1 = Reincarnation?
<Nus> what about passive immortalists? are they ISL 3 or 4?
<BJKlein> then ISL 5 would be an actual Immortal
<Utnapishtim> So I guess ISL 3.5 are those who believe it may be theoretically possible but are not actively pursuing it
<BJKlein> passive I would think there would be overlap between ISL 3 and 4
<Utnapishtim> BJK: I'm not sure the last one really is neccessary on the scale since shock levels only refer to attitudes rather than physical states
<BJKlein> Yeh.. I like 3.5
<BJKlein> good point
<Utnapishtim> What you want to avoid is a federal ban on all life extension research
<Nus> Utnap: right, so ISL 5 could describe those who are actually used to the idea of immortality by living for enormously long times themselves
<Utnapishtim> and fgiven the views of the current administration, that is exactly what they will push for if radical life extension shows up on their radar
<BJKlein> Nus, in that case ISL 5's would be an emergent property
<Utnapishtim> so perhaps an effort should be made to keep it off that radar until the political climate is more favorable
<BJKlein> If Leon Kass has anything to do with it.. yeh..
<Utnapishtim> Nus: Yes!
<Nus> Why is everyone calling him Krass?
<BJKlein> but, I believe we must raise awairness, not lower it... if we are to be successful...
<BJKlein> I belive there are many many out there on the edge when it comes to thinking out this idea...
<BJKlein> and as long as we're right.. it will work
<Nus> I agree there, BJKlein
<BJKlein> The reporter got his name wrong
<Utnapishtim> I think we can focus on those aspects of our idea that have the broadest appeal and are least controversial
<Utnapishtim> when talking to Joe average
<Nus> I do think many people would agree with immortalism if it were not seen as a fringe crackpot thing
<BJKlein> Similar fight with Cryonics.. they had to face the law head on..
<Utnapishtim> perhaps there can be a gradiated approach depending on the target audience
<BJKlein> Dora Kent issue.. they had to fight and make a stand.. and now.. they pave the way for the Saul Kents of the world
<Nus> In my experience resistance to such things is more based on "that's ridiculous science fiction" rather than "God doesn't allow it"; but then, my experience may have been selective
<Utnapishtim> If it is sold as 'remain youthful sexy and vital'
<Utnapishtim> rather than becoem immortal
<Utnapishtim> it becomes a lot more appealing for a lot of people
<BJKlein> sure.. we'll I agree about the memetic introduction..
<Utnapishtim> and less likely to raise ethical hackles
<Nus> I do agree the word "immortal" has a B-Movie sound to it :/
<BJKlein> extreme life extension is preferable to immortality .. but this will have to change...
<Utnapishtim> Nus: It also has mythical connotations
<Nus> True
<Utnapishtim> and it is an imprecise term
<Nus> Also true
<BJKlein> I disagree
<BJKlein> but, as they say.. good minds can disagree
<Nus> Immortality could mean, not dying of old age; or, not dying of old age or disease; or, not dying.
<BJKlein> there's a great difference between living a long time and immortality
<Nus> and Immortality could mean living for all time, or for an infinite amount of time.
<Utnapishtim> I am not convinved of even the theoretical possibility of living forever. I think this is also waaay to deep for most people. Remain young indefinitely. is quite a big enough concept to chew on
<Utnapishtim> I like Gregory Stock from UCLA a lot
<BJKlein> Nus, Immortlaity to me means living forever.. when it's used by the media and many writers, they use it to mean extreme life extension
<Utnapishtim> He has a knack for discussing these topics in a reassuring manner
* BJKlein has not read his new book
<BJKlein> would like to though...
<Utnapishtim> BJKlein: I understand what you mean by the term, but it is too much to push for at once
<BJKlein> I know he gives lectures and I think he was at the Forsight Conf.
<Utnapishtim> The first step is ending agingf
<Utnapishtim> Toning down the message is the best way out of the fringe ghetto
<BJKlein> yeh... well, Galileo had the same problem
<BJKlein> until he droped the iron balls
<Nus> Yes. Don't ever mention Galileo though, that's what all the crackpots do.
<BJKlein> ahh thanks Nus
<Utnapishtim> They do
<Nus> Well, not "don't ever"
<BJKlein> On Saul Kent..
<Nus> but "it is better avoided"
<BJKlein> He's putting his money where his mouth is..
<Utnapishtim> Yes
<BJKlein> 180,000,000 of it to be precise
<Utnapishtim> I am a big fan of rich immortalists.
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.o...m...mp;t=410&s=
<BJKlein> a little more on Saul..
<Utnapishtim> And he is making gettign cryonically suspended look like an exciting glamorous adventure into the future rather than a ghoulish enterprise
<Utnapishtim> That is a very positive step
<BJKlein> but you know he basically got into this whole thing because of Robert Ettenger
<Utnapishtim> Perhaos that was a little unclear
<Utnapishtim> I was talking about the timeship project he is funding
<BJKlein> oh, yes.. I agree
<Utnapishtim> Which is basically a huge cryonics and life extension research facility
<BJKlein> http://www.timeship.org/ yeh.. where's Ziana when you need here?
<BJKlein> her*
<BJKlein> and wheres MA?
<Nus> peer reset his connection, and he never came back
<Utnapishtim> BJ: Do you agree that the question of whether it is advisable for life extension researchers to proclaim their goals from the rooftops is a highly debatable one?
<BJKlein> that's Robert Ettinger*
<Utnapishtim> and what do others think?
<BJKlein> we'll I was just talking with my wife about this..
<BJKlein> as you know.. she still believes in an afterlife
<Utnapishtim> does she mind indefinitely postponing it?
<BJKlein> thus, she does not feel the urgency that I do..
<BJKlein> umm, no she'd be ok with living forever.. as long as it wasn't a nightmare
<BJKlein> she's supportive of the site and such...
<BJKlein> but it's sad that I can't even convince my own wife..
<BJKlein> So that's going to be the big problem with the step up from ISL3 to ISL4...
<Utnapishtim> Which perhaps suggests that we shoulf not make the convincing job harder than it needs to be
<BJKlein> getting people to believe that LOA: Life is the Only Alternative
<Utnapishtim> BJ: I don't think you need to do this directly
<Utnapishtim> Attacking peoples belief in mystical gibberish will only anger them
<BJKlein> Well, lets take Saul Kent for example...
<Utnapishtim> It is best to not even address the issue
<Utnapishtim> ok
<BJKlein> He got into life extension because of Robert Ettinger back in the 60's
<BJKlein> Robert wrote a book, went on the talk shows, got his message out there..
<BJKlein> and that sparked Kent.. now we see the fruit of that 40yrs later..
<Utnapishtim> which is fantastic
<BJKlein> I believe that history is with the philosophy...
<BJKlein> as long as it's done in the right way..
<Utnapishtim> I believe that most people are not interested in heavyweight intellectual concepts
<BJKlein> I believe Eliezer and I and others have similar problems... similar to Darwin, Galilao etc..
<BJKlein> opps did I say Galilao?
<BJKlein> well, that's the beauty of physical immortality
<Utnapishtim> but I think most people would be interested in playing golf sleeping with women and watching footballfor another 100 years or so
<BJKlein> it's an extrememly simple concept to understand
<Utnapishtim> and our message is really that basic and trhat appealing
<Utnapishtim> Tell me BJ does your wife buy cosmetics products?
<BJKlein> heh. she's a woman, isn't she?
<Utnapishtim> 90% of that stuff is sold with the promise to preserve youthful appearance
<Utnapishtim> I have seen labels like age defying U-Turn creme
<Utnapishtim> all sorts of nonsense
<BJKlein> This is built on the evolutionary psychology need to be attractive for potential mates,,ye
<Utnapishtim> At a basic level that stuff already represents at least a basic youth extension regime at least
<Utnapishtim> Albeit a probably ineffective one
<Utnapishtim> do you see my point
<BJKlein> yeh
<BJKlein> We're already transhumanizing our bodies
<Utnapishtim> Isn't the 50 year old guy who buys a harley trying to turn back the clock in a silly immature sort of way?
<Utnapishtim> didn't mean that to sound condescending actually
<Utnapishtim> nothing wrong with 50 year olds on harleys
<Utnapishtim> but you get my drift
<BJKlein> sure.. as humans we crave to be perceived as vital, we wish to show fitnes to imaginary mates
<Utnapishtim> Life extension is the ultimate way of remaining vital
<Utnapishtim> to mates imaginary or otherwise;)
<BJKlein> yeh.. well, I don't look at that in total in that light.. but it works
<Utnapishtim> BJ: I don't think that this is the only reason for wanting to stay alive either
<Utnapishtim> but you have to admit that it is a damned attractive sales pitch for the majority of americans
<Utnapishtim> who don't care for high brow debate
<BJKlein> ehh. yeh.. as Max More and Kurzweil would agree
<Utnapishtim> So perhaps we should continue to focus on the shallow rather than the lofty and visionary
<BJKlein> but, I doubt they'd come out and say that physical immortality is important because Life is all there is... and that is what I believe will be the ultimate draw..
<Utnapishtim> We disagree here
<BJKlein> heh, yep..
<Utnapishtim> I do not think that for the majority of people, an intellectual argument will ever be the ultimate draw
<Nus> Utnapishtim, I could maybe understand that strategy if it were just about life extension, but what about Transhumanism in general?
<BJKlein> I'll agree that to get interest extreme life extension is good...
<Utnapishtim> but my point is that is really doesn't matter
<Utnapishtim> Nus: I was sort of focussing on todays topic
<Utnapishtim> I also have to admit that life extension is 'by far' my most immediate concern since it is a prerequisite for any other transhumanist ambitions I may have
<Nus> Alright, but shouldn't immortality be seen in the context of Transhumanism in general?
<Utnapishtim> Nus: I don't think so no...
<BJKlein> Nus, yes
<BJKlein> heh
<Utnapishtim> because the rest of transhumanism is even less immediately palatable to the general public than life extension
<Utnapishtim> and nowhere near as intuitively appealing
<Utnapishtim> Nus BJ: I sharply distinguish between how I see things and how I wish to approach convincing the general public
<Utnapishtim> I am speaking strictly in the latter context right now
<BJKlein> oh.. sure.. I agree Utnapishtim
<Nus> Would you advocate advocating life extension and transhumanism as two completely separate concepts, or?
<BJKlein> consider your audience.. but remember your principles
<Utnapishtim> Nus: I consider life extension 'by far' the most immediately important transhumanist concept right now
<Nus> That's where we disagree, then.
<Utnapishtim> You willhave an endless amount of time to seel folks on the rest of transhumanism afterwards;)
<Nus> Maybe, maybe not
<Nus> Existential risks, and so on
<BJKlein> Biological Extreme Life Extension is precarious..
<Utnapishtim> Nus: Are you a singulatarian?
<Nus> Utnap: yes.
<Nus> But even if I weren't, I would see transhumanism in general as more important and urgent than life extension.
<Utnapishtim> I am still somewhat of a skeptic on this issue. Perhaps this is why our opinions diverge here
<Utnapishtim> oh ok
<Nus> How we deal with transhumanism will affect what direction the future of Earth takes
<BJKlein> Nus, you and Psycho are on the same.. in terms of Trans then Physical Immortality
<Nus> How soon we develop life extension only affects who will be along for the ride.
<BJKlein> But how can you become transhuman is your dead?
<BJKlein> if*
<Utnapishtim> I am pragmatic. My immediate concern is that I and those I care about are along for that ride
<BJKlein> Here's something i'm thinking about...
<BJKlein> Creating a National Immortalist Holiday
<Nus> Utnap: if your concern is about that, and if you think transhumanist developments will still take many years, then that's a consistent position, I guess
<BJKlein> I was talking with Susan about how much I dislike Christmas.. and how I'd like an alternative
<Nus> but I'd disagree with both your goals and your predictions of the future
<Utnapishtim> Nus: Fair enough
<BJKlein> I'm considering a day of the year for the holiday...
<BJKlein> maybe when the first Cryonics patient went under...
<Nus> Well, I don't disagree that it would be a good thing for you and those you care about to be along; but I do think that if what direction we take with transhumanist technologies can effect the further development of the Earth or maybe the Universe, that's even more important
<Nus> *affect
<Shadow> immortality thread on the CoV continues unabated. Bruce has already posted as well. Feel free to add your own two cents. http://virus.lucifer...t=0;boardseen=1
<Utnapishtim> Shadow: Have you been following our own little debate here?
<Shadow> I've come in on the last of it, I think.
<BJKlein> what other Immortalist milestones could we celebrate..
<BJKlein> Artificial Heart
<Shadow> It seems that Nus is saying that Transhumanist goals in general are more important that just life extension . . . .
<Shadow> Was that the gist?
<BJKlein> maybe Ben Franklin's Birthday?
<Shadow> Ben Franklin was a hell of a guy.
<Shadow> in a good way of course.
<Utnapishtim> Shadow: And I was arguing for the primacy of life extension
<BJKlein> he's made some pretty amazing comments about preservations aluding to cryonics..
<Utnapishtim> and the need to dumb ideas down to appeal to the LCD
<BJKlein> lcd.. lower class ?
<Utnapishtim> BJK: I have read them. That was pretty prophetic
<Shadow> what is "LCD"
<Utnapishtim> lowest common denominator
<BJKlein> ahh
<Utnapishtim> BJK: Even I am not THAT much of a snob!
<BJKlein> 1706 Born in Boston, Massachusetts on January 17
<Nus> Utnapishtim: I don't think amount/number of people affected is completely unimportant to importance of goals, and whether or not a Singularity happens could (if you believe in extreme-ish futuristic scenarios) make the difference between 10^50 happy (and superintelligent) person-years of life and planetary extinction
<BJKlein> Jan 17, not bad...
<Nus> Even if you don't believe in extreme-ish futuristic scenarios, it may make the difference for billions.
<Shadow> I think transhumanism puts life entention within some philosophical framework, and so in terms of dealing with LCD, I think it helps not hinder's life extension to generally promote transhumanism.
<BJKlein> Ben Franklin's Birthday.... The New Immortalist Holiday
<Utnapishtim> I think focusing on endless sex football and golf should be enough
<Utnapishtim> lol
<Nus> Shadow: I agree, but do you think they should be promoted separately or as one package?
<Utnapishtim> Nus: I will come back to you on this.. let me chew on it for a while..
<Shadow> Ult, that will probably work for a while, but if you have a practical eternity to deal with these things, then you are going to want something more.
<Utnapishtim> Shadow: Then we can cross that bridge when we come to it
<Shadow> Nus, people like packages.
<Shadow> so especially in LCD terms, you should try making yourself part of one.
<Utnapishtim> I think by far the most universally compelling aspect of the transhumnaist package is the chance to be endlessly young and beautiful
<BJKlein> Shadow...are you Jake?
<Utnapishtim> and so this should be the primary focus
<Shadow> Yes, Bruce!
<BJKlein> ahh great .. nice post
<Shadow> thanks
<Shadow> I think the package works nicely, so I say promote it. I got drawn into transhumansim through my interest in memetics. And now I am in an immortality chat.
<Nus> Utnap, if I told people transhumanism should be supported mainly because people could then stay young and beautiful, I would also be dishonest
<BJKlein> Shadow.. is COV considered a religion..
<BJKlein> in your definition, that is..
<Nus> and I think that would go for many immortalists/transhumanists.
<Shadow> BJK, it tries to become a religion from time to time, but mostly it is a website, a BBS, a mailing list, and the loose community that sticks with it.
<Shadow> David McFadzean started it, and still pokes his head in from time to time.
<BJKlein> ehh.. I had a recent debate with someone who was saying that Atheism was a religion...
<BJKlein> and I had to look up the definition...
<Utnapishtim> Atheism is absence of theistic belief
<BJKlein> from what I understand.. religion is the belief of a higher power.. promoting a higher power..
<Shadow> no, atheism is simply a position about "God" thingies.
<Nus> It's used rather often, but I still like the quote "if atheism is a religion, then health is a disease"
<Utnapishtim> calling is a religion is an oxymoron
<BJKlein> good... thought so
<BJKlein> now, why are not more atheist immortalist?
<Shadow> BJK, we do have occassional arguments about whether an atheistic religion is even possible, on CoV.
<Utnapishtim> BJK: Not all religious systems promote a god as such
<Shadow> I guess it depends on how you define religion as to whether that's possible or not.
<Utnapishtim> and religious systems are actually a subcategory of a broader group of faith based world models
<Shadow> True, some might argue reasonably that Buddhism is an atheistic religion.
<BJKlein> key word there is "faith
<Utnapishtim> Communism confucianism, and psychoanalysis are three more examples of faith based world views
<Utnapishtim> that aren't religions
<Shadow> I have heard many call communism an atheistic religion too.
<Utnapishtim> I think that stretches the definition of religion
<Shadow> But then the Randian Objectivist movement too had some aspects of religions and cults, are they a religion?
<Utnapishtim> but it "is" a faith based belief system
<Utnapishtim> All lingusitic distinctions are ultimately artificial
<Nus> I have heard people call Singularitarianism a religion :D
<Utnapishtim> to the extent that they suggest sharp lines dividing categories
<Shadow> I think most all religions have a mythology of some kind or another, and generally have a faithlike response to that mythology.
<BJKlein> but this doesn't answer my original question.. why aren't more atheist immortalist?
<Shadow> In that regard, Objectivism had mythology, Ayn Rand's novels, and its adherents had faithlike response to that mythology, and so in some sense it is a religion.
<Utnapishtim> I consider religion an attempt to answer metaphysical questions through metaphorical stories
<Utnapishtim> BJK: Some believe that the social consequences of extended life spans are intrinsically undesirable
<Nus> BJKlein: because it's thought of as scientifically implausible, immediate reactions to anything that sounds like religion, and so on
<Nus> and also other things, of course
<BJKlein> but.. if you don't believe in an afterlife..
<BJKlein> why live at all?
<Utnapishtim> Others see the value of anything, including life, as directly tied to its scarcity. Remove the scarcity and you remove the value
<Shadow> BJK, self identified atheists make up a very small percentage of the population in the first place . . . perhaps you are thinking that there are more than there actually are?
<BJKlein> Shadow: it's just that in most all Atheist writings.. there is little consideration about the delima
<Utnapishtim> I had a discussion on BJS boards recently about the atheist versus believer question
<Shadow> BJK, though I find your immortalism memes very interesting, I don't as an atheist necessarily agree that there is nothing to life if I am not immortal.
<Utnapishtim> BJK: The percentagfe of the population that believes death is realistically defeatable is negligible
<BJKlein> Frank Zindler is an exception
<Utnapishtim> therefore most atheists see the need to make peace with it
<Nus> Who is Frank Zindler?
<Utnapishtim> Shadow: I don't agree with that either
<Shadow> Certainly I am interested in having a lasting mark, making a difference, etc, but sometimes a little good sex, and a nice shower can keep me going regardless.
<BJKlein> A prominent Atheist speeker, writer.. etc
<Shadow> Perhaps even in becoming immortal one day.
<BJKlein> speaker*
<Shadow> but I guess I just don't see it as an all or nothing proposition.
<Utnapishtim> Nothing like good sex and a nice shower to convince what nonsense the Buddhist assertion that all existence is suffering is
<Shadow> :-)
<BJKlein> hmm... Shadow... so you don't consider yourself an Atheist?
<Nus> "Sex is the mathematics urge sublimated"
<Shadow> I am an atheist.
<BJKlein> thus doesn't that contradict your previous statement...
<Shadow> which one?
<BJKlein> , I don't as an atheist necessarily agree that there is nothing to life if I am not immortal.
<BJKlein> is that not a belief in a higher power... something we can't understand
<Shadow> I don't see a problem.
<Utnapishtim> I have to admit I don't see where the contradction is
<Shadow> no. Where did I imply a higher power?
<Utnapishtim> either
<BJKlein> well, if there is nothing after life.. what's the point in life now..
<BJKlein> sorry.. ok no higher power..
<Shadow> Life is its own purpose.
<Utnapishtim> I had an interesting atheism vs religion debate on BJs boards recently
<Nus> I don't think amount of life changes the purpose of life, if any.
<BJKlein> just the principle of concept.
<Shadow> or it creates them anyway.
<Utnapishtim> Topic Whats the problem
<Nus> If 100 years of life are meaningless, then so are 10^10 years
<BJKlein> right.. thus immortality has the only meaning
<Utnapishtim> Nus: Indeed the latter may represent the greater loss
<Nus> If 10^10 or infinite years of life are meaningful, then so are 100 years, just a lot less in quantity
<Utnapishtim> BJkein: you are begging the question
<BJKlein> I beg all the time
<Utnapishtim> lol
<Nus> BJKlein: read "infinity" where I said 10^10
<BJKlein> but it doesn't get me anywhere
<Shadow> yes, but immortality at this point exists as an ideal, not a real thing. I of course grant that this may change, but until it does, the universe shall continue as before . . .
<BJKlein> uhh.. Nus, don't do that
<Nus> do what?
<Utnapishtim> Immortality is unachievable. At what point will I be able to say. I have lived endlessly...
<BJKlein> ahh nevermind.. I think I know what your saying..
<Nus> I think meaningfulness of life doesn't change in kind when you become immortal, just in amount
<Nus> and in quality, of course
<BJKlein> yeh.. that's important.. we'll never know if we're immortal..
<Nus> but it's a matter of degree
<Nus> I think it's possible to have lived for an infinite time, though not in normal models of time
<Nus> mathematics is weird like that
<BJKlein> I get triped up on meaning...
<Utnapishtim> I do not think that death makes that life meaningless
<Utnapishtim> I do not think that Shakespeare led a meaningless life
<BJKlein> I think it'll work out with time..
<Utnapishtim> nor did Einstein
<Shadow> I guess on come level, I really don't see the point of dealing in infinities, so to whatever extent immortality means this, I don't really have a use for it. But to whatever extent we simply hold it as a striving point in the present, then I can use that.
<Shadow> some level even.
<Utnapishtim> Shadow: You have just articulated far better than I could, one of my main quibbles with the term immortality
<Shadow> But the present has its own hold regardless of immortality.
<Nus> I don't see why infinities are not important; infinity is a lot more than just any large number
<Nus> Of course, it may not make sense to focus on it when selling the idea
<BJKlein> Shakespeare and Einstein's lives are not meaningless to the living.. but they sure are to the dead
* Nus should go to sleep
<Utnapishtim> BJK: I am not convinced immortality is even theoretically attainable. And frankly I am not sure I am intellectually equipped to deal with the concept of infinity
<Shadow> When taken within some mathematical framework or well defined algorithmic process, I can see the point of using a concept, like infinity, but outside of these, it tends to simply lead to supernatural thinking.
<BJKlein> sure me neither.. but I don't see a way out..
<Utnapishtim> BJK: Maybe its best not to worry about it. Just keep living
<BJKlein> ehh.. my personality doen't allow me to worry to much... but hopefully just enough to stick around
<Utnapishtim> Hope so BJ
<Utnapishtim> A sparsely attended chat tonight
<Utnapishtim> But a good one nevertheless
<BJKlein> non newsletter night
<BJKlein> yeh.. enjoyable.. thanks for making it Utnapishtim, appreciate it
<Utnapishtim> shadow, you still about?
<Shadow> I have to run soon.
<Shadow> I have studying to do.
<Utnapishtim> Nice chatting to you again Jake
<BJKlein> Good luck Shadow
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<Utnapishtim> I can't think of any other context where I could be advocating cryonics radical life extension and still be conservative
<Utnapishtim> See ya shadow!
<Utnapishtim> I see your mirror twin has joined the room
<nielKJB> muhhaha
<Utnapishtim> hold up
<nielKJB> I believe we have duty to die for our fellow man..
<Utnapishtim> lol
<Utnapishtim> I take it you are a deathist
<nielKJB> Humans should not be selfish. Immortalit is impossible.
<nielKJB> What about overcrowing? What about the rich.. what about god???
<Utnapishtim> lol
<Utnapishtim> We would get bored!!!!!!!!!
<Utnapishtim> what about 'human dignity?'
<nielKJB> yeh.. what about that?
<Utnapishtim> You know the idea I was talking about earlier?
<nielKJB> I think immortalism is just a new fad....
<Utnapishtim> seriously now..
<nielKJB> you ever hear of Scientology?
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<Utnapishtim> Boy your twin sure is nasty
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<BJKlein> uhh.. yeh watch em
<Utnapishtim> I think I will organise a new years ever party for 2100
<Utnapishtim> new years eve party
<Utnapishtim> I will set up a site
<Utnapishtim> and look for rich backers to fund the thing
<BJKlein> cool..
<Utnapishtim> Get Kurzweil and Kent on the guest list
<Utnapishtim> the media would love something like this
<BJKlein> i'm there
<Utnapishtim> You better be!
<BJKlein> might even do a www.longbets.com thingy
<Utnapishtim> I bet I will get to attend Utnas party?
<Utnapishtim> I mean. This is a real media friendly concept
<BJKlein> heh
<BJKlein> 97yrs to prepare...
<Utnapishtim> I really think it could catchpeoples attention. It raises the topic of liofe extension in a fun nonthreatening way
<BJKlein> you know.. you may want to say 2101
<Utnapishtim> Hmmm....
<BJKlein> to be mathmaticaly correct
<Utnapishtim> or 2150
<Utnapishtim> I will try to get the interest of at least a couple of the big life extension fish
<Utnapishtim> and figure out which date they think would be good for this purpose
<Utnapishtim> I think it would be cool to put champagne aside NOW
<Utnapishtim> Really have fun with this idea
<Utnapishtim> and get firm commitments from people to attend
<Utnapishtim> hey aloril
<aloril> hi Utnapishtim
<Utnapishtim> wanna come to my new years eve party
<Utnapishtim> on 2102
<Utnapishtim> It is a new idea I am playing with
<Utnapishtim> An enetertaining way to get life extension into the mass media
<BJKlein> you could also make a time capsule
<Utnapishtim> Yes you could
<Utnapishtim> I bet one of the major hotels would let you book
<Utnapishtim> just for the publicity
<Utnapishtim> maybe the Ritz in Paris?
<BJKlein> yepper
<PD> What's up?
<BJKlein> Welcome Back PD
<Utnapishtim> Whats up PD
<Utnapishtim> Just planning my new years eve party
<PD> Heh
<Utnapishtim> for 2102
<PD> At the Ritz?
<Utnapishtim> yeah
<BJKlein> Also...
<BJKlein> planing a new Immortalist holiday
<Utnapishtim> I have decided to start a project to organise a new years eve party in a hundred years time
<Utnapishtim> I will invite Eric Drexler and Ray Kurzweil
<BJKlein> National Immortality Day - Ben Franklins Birthday July 17th
<Utnapishtim> and Saul Kent
<PD> Heh
<PD> Why Ben Franklin?
<PD> National Cryonics Day, maybe.
<Utnapishtim> Ben Franklin made some prophetic comments about cryonics
<Utnapishtim> he wished he lived in an age when a man might be preserved and get a chance to see the future of his new republic
<aloril> Utnapishtim: publicity idea = "new years eve party" ?
<Utnapishtim> aloril: Yes
<aloril> Utnapishtim: and hi
<PD> Zzz
<Utnapishtim> I want to book a banqueting hall at a historuic hotel 100 years in advance
<PD> What if the hotel isn't around then?
<Utnapishtim> put many prominent life extension advocates on the guest list
<Utnapishtim> PD: Doesn't really matter
<PD> Heh
<BJKlein> PD.. so now you can answer me directly..
<Utnapishtim> This is primarily about the media interest that will be generated right here in 2002
<PD> About what?
<Utnapishtim> not that I'm not serious about the party...
<BJKlein> how can you be a good transhuman whilst dead?
<PD> ?
<BJKlein> your forum post.
<Utnapishtim> Futurists plan 2002 new years bash
<PD> Straw man alert ;\
<BJKlein> you placed Transhumanism before physical immortality
<BJKlein> heh
<PD> That just means immortality isn't necessarily advantageous for present day human cultures
* BJKlein bashes the drums
<PD> Have you noticed how many refutations of deathist arguments depend on the idea of transhuman infrastructure?
<BJKlein> yes
<PD> So we don't just want immortality, we want the infrastructure to support it
<PD> That's what I meant
<BJKlein> have you noticed how much transhumanism relies on the concept that living forever is a good idea?
<PD> It doesn't rely on it
<BJKlein> as a core idea... a reason to become transhuman, physical immortality is pretty important to the cause
<PD> That's just something that flows naturally out of it
<BJKlein> so what's driving transhumanism in the first place?
<BJKlein> people want to look good? image?
<Utnapishtim> PD: I agree with BJ here
<PD> The desire to improve.
<PD> ...
<PD> You're saying newbie things now :(
<BJKlein> Or maybe, do they fear non-existance and oblivion?
<BJKlein> I was trying to say newbie things.. heh
<BJKlein> we were discussin this earlier..
<Utnapishtim> People wanting to look permamenetly good and fearing non-existence and oblivion are perfectly legitmimate
<Utnapishtim> they certainly apply to me
<BJKlein> How to make the meme palatable to the general public..
<PD> I should point out that I was thinking about death long before I was thinking about transhumanism
<BJKlein> what did you conclude?
<PD> I concluded that death is not bad, only the absence of good things happening to you is bad. ;\
* BJKlein slumps
<PD> That's Nagel's refutation of the Epicurian deathist argument, actually
<BJKlein> the same thing that happend to you before birth.. will happen after death...
<BJKlein> nada nada nada
<PD> The idea of things happening to you before birth is incoherent ;\
<Utnapishtim> nonexistence is pretty much the worst outcome concievable as far as I am concerned
<Utnapishtim> I guess permanent torure would be worse
<BJKlein> no
<BJKlein> it wouldn't
<PD> So is the idea of things happening to you after death.
<BJKlein> PD you're an atheist..
<BJKlein> right?
<PD> Death isn't a bad state that you are in... Death means that there is no "you" to be in states.
<Utnapishtim> Th e destruction of self is utterly unacceptable
<PD> Well, I basically agree.
<BJKlein> weither we call it good, bad or maybe, death is the last straw in the strawman argument
<PD> I'm just pointing out that death isn't bad in and of itself, but because it deprives you of good things.
<BJKlein> sure.. I can see that
<PD> (even though I shouldn't really put it like that)
<PD> ^^
<Utnapishtim> being is a good thing in and of itself
<BJKlein> but maybe we should sub good... with "all"
<Utnapishtim> the ability to think reflect and remember are the most important things we have
<BJKlein> PD.
<PD> http://www.philosoph...icle.php?id=609
<PD> Interesting article ;\
<BJKlein> do you have a take on the argument for only the rich will be able to be transhuman/imnmortal
<PD> Yes
<PD> But it depends on transhuman infrastructure :D
<BJKlein> what's your gut telling ya will happen..
<PD> That economy as we conceive of it now will cease to exist within a few decades.
<BJKlein> a segmented society?
<PD> Erm
<Utnapishtim> I think a society segmented along fault lines of mortality would find a way to destroy itself
<PD> A society that has more resources than it knows what to do with.
<Utnapishtim> PD: Perhaps we will attempt to institute artificial scarcity
<Utnapishtim> so we ahve something to play our monkey games with
<PD> We already do that, but it's only because of poor organization.
<BJKlein> hmm, I wonder if scarcity will always be a part of life...
<BJKlein> as will the threat of death
<PD> There's enough food and resources in the world for everyone to lead content middle-class lives.
<BJKlein> PD, you're Singularitarian right?
<PD> But people are dying of starvation. ;\
<PD> Because we don't know how to manage our shit.
<PD> I guess
<Utnapishtim> Not entirely
<Utnapishtim> because a central point of resource allocation is to prove who has the biggest dick
<Utnapishtim> we consider this more important than dealing with starvation and hunger
<BJKlein> baha
<PD> Nah, we're more civilized than that now.
<Utnapishtim> really?
<PD> Yeah
<PD> We want to deal with starvation and hunger
<PD> We're just too stupid :(
<Utnapishtim> We also want SUVs
<PD> We could have SUVs and deal with starvation and hunger
<PD> Wait a minute
<Utnapishtim> I think that most of us want Cadillac Escalades more than we want the end of poverty
<PD> "starvation and hunger" sounds kinda redundant ;\
<Utnapishtim> yeah it is my bad sorry!
<PD> lol
<Utnapishtim> You have to admit that a central attraction of wealth for most people is the disparity it creates between themselves and the regular joe
<BJKlein> I think 80% of philosopy is the attempt to come to terms with the finality of death. Similar to religion.. but, in a scientific setting.
<Utnapishtim> whether they admit it or not
<Utnapishtim> BJK: that is part of it. so is the desire to prove reproductive fitness
<Utnapishtim> OMy mistake
<BJKlein> heh.. what did I read recently.... 50% of what we produce it used to cover up 50% of what we produce
<Utnapishtim> I didn't rea your statement thoroughly
<PD> Bruce, that's like 3% of philosophy ;\
<Utnapishtim> Philosophy also doesn't take place in a scientific setting
<PD> I only linked you to that article because it had the two refutations of Epicurian deathism that I use
<BJKlein> we'll if we looked at the underlying reason for writing it... i'd suggest much more.
<BJKlein> no, read Dennett. and Wilson
<BJKlein> it's basis, on the fear of death... the core of it..
<Utnapishtim> Its also showing off
<PD> The overwhelming majority of philosophy doesn't even address the issue of death
<Utnapishtim> The desire to prove positive heritabel attributes whether strength smartness, whatever, motivate A LOT of human behavior
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<Utnapishtim> as some naively suggest they should
<BJKlein> well, I could be wrong... but I doub't it
Thanks for joining us.. see you next week as we discuss "Rationality" with Eliezer and friends* BJKlein afks
<Utnapishtim> PD: Nihilism is intrinsically bad
<Utnapishtim> it contributes to the sum total of human unhappiness
<PD> If nihilism were true, it wold neither be bad nor good. But then again, if nihilism were true, it would neither be true nor false. :D
<Utnapishtim> Did you follow toays discussion?
<PD> Not that I'm a nihilist or anything.
<PD> Which discussion?
<Utnapishtim> the official chat
<PD> I only joined half an hour ago
<Utnapishtim> that only involved me BJ and Nuc lol
<Utnapishtim> You like my New yeas eve party idea?
<PD> Sure why not
<Utnapishtim> Its silly and nonthreatening and it could help in a small way to raise life extensionist thinking in the media
<Utnapishtim> Who do you think I should invite?
<Utnapishtim> I am thinking of people who could be involved in such a project and might be interested in contributing toi it
<Utnapishtim> Saul Kent springs to mind
<Utnapishtim> so is Ray Kurzweil
<Utnapishtim> both of these guys understand the importance of marketing
<PD> Who is Saul Kent?
<Utnapishtim> the head of the Life Extension Foundation
<PD> Ah
<PD> Drexler works I guess
<Utnapishtim> He is also involved in funding the timeship, the most spectacular cryonics facility ever envisioned
<Utnapishtim> Eric Drexler should be on the list you are right
<Utnapishtim> Maybe a few Hollywood types could be persuaded to tentatively committ
<PD> Maybe
<Utnapishtim> I will try to get the Paris Ritz to host
<Utnapishtim> It doesn't really hurt them and they get free publicity
<PD> You could probably get some of the futurist AI types
<Utnapishtim> Yes
<Utnapishtim> Marvin Minsky
<PD> Danny Hillis maybe
<PD> Minsky is probably too old ;\
<Utnapishtim> Hasn't he got an Alcor membership?
<PD> I have no idea
<Utnapishtim> Who is Danny Hillis
<PD> Connection machine guy
<Utnapishtim> Ettinger
<PD> He had some interesting articles on edge.org
<PD> About the singularity and integrating with technology ;\
<PD> The singularity is like a CS cult now
<Utnapishtim> I know!
<Utnapishtim> And Imust confess that I remain a skeptic
<PD> Lanier was whining about it in a recent book
<Utnapishtim> I think the transhumansit debate is substantially narrowed
<Utnapishtim> by the prevalence of CS types in its ranks in my opinion
<PD> Computer scientist Jaron Lanier’s essay, “The Complexity Ceiling,” began on somewhat of a tirade. Complaining about the typical futurist’s tendency for overstatement, Lanier cynically commented on the ‘members of elite computer science departments’ who believe in an inevitably ‘singularity:’
<Utnapishtim> not anones fault but just the way the demographics shake out at the moment
<PD> That reminds me
<Utnapishtim> Do you have a link?
<PD> You should invite rodney brooks ;\
<Utnapishtim> yes
<PD> It's a review on transhumanism.com
<Utnapishtim> This party is starting to seem a little too male
<PD> Yes
<Utnapishtim> You think Hugh Hefner will still be around them
<Utnapishtim> I thought he may be able to bring a few of his friends
<PD> No, but you should still ask him ;\
<Utnapishtim> For some reason I can see him really going for something like Cryonics
<Utnapishtim> It wouldn't surprise me at all if he ended up with Alcor
<PD> Heh
<PD> I dunno
<PD> Wait and see, maybe we'll get spielberg or something
<Utnapishtim> Yes
<Utnapishtim> The science fiction writer Ben Bova
<PD> Broderick
<Utnapishtim> I will contact of couple of the people on that list about the idea this week. It will be interesting to see what sort of respose I get
<PD> Yep
<Utnapishtim> what do you think of the cult accusation toward singulatarians
<PD> It's memetically obnoxious but should be taken as a compliment :D
<Utnapishtim> I am openminded abiout the concept
<Utnapishtim> I find though that nearly everyone I talk to is either convinced of it or dismisses it
<PD> I'm like you
<Mermaid> doh
<Utnapishtim> I do think that for a substantial percentage of believers in 'The Singularity' it is a faith position
<BJKlein> ..
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<BJKlein> hi
