124 replies to this topic

[Joseph_Dantes]

Lard, is that healthy? Or full of good fats in this form?

Yes, lard (animal fat) is necessary for life on an all meat diet, and is extremely healthy. It is the foundation of our evolved capability to have smaller stomachs and larger brains. Fat is why humans became big game hunters - small animals don't have a high enough fat to protein ratio.

Of course, eating too much lard will make you miserable. Eat to taste.

Yeah, that fish on ice is your best bet, it should be fresher than any other meat you can buy in your supermarket. Go for it!

Again I recommend you go all meat and zero fruit at first, to make sure that fructose or something else in fruit isn't causing problems.

Don't buy that "wheat free, dairy free" @#$. It's still processed food. You should eliminate all processed food and chemicals from your diet with extreme prejudice. If you doubt, watch Food Inc.

[nito]

Since introducing TMG a couple of days ago I am noticing a strange 'buzzing' sensation. I feel a lot more motivated. An energized feeling which is quite pleasant actually. It lasts throughout the day too. This one is a keeper for now.

I currently take TMG with methyl cobalamin, folinic acid (will be switching to cerefolin), P5P, calcium and magnesium (twice daily), zinc and my usual anti-oxidants.

I am also taking perika at the moment just for the serotonin boosting effects. I know the low serotonin is the result of my depression. That's the reason citalopram had such a dramatic effect on my mood. It was like a light switch suddenly flipping on. I became optimistic, almost joyous and the miserable pessism dissapated into dust. It does make wonder what other AD's might be out there that could have such similar effects. I do still have escitalopram on the way. Despite now deciding that I don't want to pursue the SSRI option due to the side effects I will trial low dose escitalopram at some point in the future if all other options become exhausted first (diet, exercise, practical application). Anyway, the effect I am currently getting from perika are not as dramatic but it's all I have for now. Plus I never gave it a proper chance so I am going too keep taking it for a period of weeks to give it a proper go. The side effect profile is definitely good and I am definitely interested in its sleep enhancing qualities.
I would be interested in hearing from people who could recommend any mood stabalizing medications. I'm not going to jump into anything. As discussed above I am going to sort my diet out completely before pursuing pharmaceuticals. I don't think they are bad, I've certainly experienced some beautiful mood states on them but I need to find something that is actually right for me.

Why did you stop citalopram and started perika instead? Did it lose it's effects over time? Btw how much perika do you take and at what times?

[Thorsten3]

Since introducing TMG a couple of days ago I am noticing a strange 'buzzing' sensation. I feel a lot more motivated. An energized feeling which is quite pleasant actually. It lasts throughout the day too. This one is a keeper for now.

I currently take TMG with methyl cobalamin, folinic acid (will be switching to cerefolin), P5P, calcium and magnesium (twice daily), zinc and my usual anti-oxidants.

I am also taking perika at the moment just for the serotonin boosting effects. I know the low serotonin is the result of my depression. That's the reason citalopram had such a dramatic effect on my mood. It was like a light switch suddenly flipping on. I became optimistic, almost joyous and the miserable pessism dissapated into dust. It does make wonder what other AD's might be out there that could have such similar effects. I do still have escitalopram on the way. Despite now deciding that I don't want to pursue the SSRI option due to the side effects I will trial low dose escitalopram at some point in the future if all other options become exhausted first (diet, exercise, practical application). Anyway, the effect I am currently getting from perika are not as dramatic but it's all I have for now. Plus I never gave it a proper chance so I am going too keep taking it for a period of weeks to give it a proper go. The side effect profile is definitely good and I am definitely interested in its sleep enhancing qualities.
I would be interested in hearing from people who could recommend any mood stabalizing medications. I'm not going to jump into anything. As discussed above I am going to sort my diet out completely before pursuing pharmaceuticals. I don't think they are bad, I've certainly experienced some beautiful mood states on them but I need to find something that is actually right for me.

Why did you stop citalopram and started perika instead? Did it lose it's effects over time? Btw how much perika do you take and at what times?

I usually experience a mood lift and elimination of my depression straight away (pretty significantly) when I take any SSRI. Unfortunately after a couple of days of consistent usage, the anxiety and agitation sets in. I remember one time when I was at work, one of my work colleagues commented that he thought I must have had a good weekend as I looked 'coked up'. So after that incident actually realising how weird I must appear on these drugs (certainly felt weird too), I decided that the long term use of SSRI's would not be a benficial move. They are still good though if my mood hots rock bottom and I need something to push me back to where I should be, due to the immidiate reaction I have when I take them. So I now adopt this approach and only take them if I know I am not going to be at work (so, only on days off work and only if I desperately need it which is very rare - but these episodes do hit occasionally).

I am currently awaiting escitalopram and will maybe trial it at a low dose if I exhaust all other possibilities first (overhaul of diet, perika trial, therapy,etc). I want to trial it on the idea that it is one of the better if not the best SSRI and taking it in a low dose could have completely different effects with regards to the side effects. If I am honest I am not overly sure about its promise because I think all of the SSRI's induce agitation in the first few weeks of usage. I would have just tried low dose citalopram (what I currently had) but I ran out as I only had 3 tabs left so I thought if I was going to bring another SSRI in it may as well be one of the reportably better ones (hence escitalopram). But again, it's just going to be another option further down the road that I might try. I won't be in any hurry to try it as I want to give every other option a chance before making my mind up that the pharmaceutical route is the only way to go for me.

Edited by Thorsten, 07 October 2010 - 08:54 PM.

[Thorsten3]

Lard, is that healthy? Or full of good fats in this form?

Yes, lard (animal fat) is necessary for life on an all meat diet, and is extremely healthy. It is the foundation of our evolved capability to have smaller stomachs and larger brains. Fat is why humans became big game hunters - small animals don't have a high enough fat to protein ratio.

Of course, eating too much lard will make you miserable. Eat to taste.

Yeah, that fish on ice is your best bet, it should be fresher than any other meat you can buy in your supermarket. Go for it!

Again I recommend you go all meat and zero fruit at first, to make sure that fructose or something else in fruit isn't causing problems.

Don't buy that "wheat free, dairy free" @#$. It's still processed food. You should eliminate all processed food and chemicals from your diet with extreme prejudice. If you doubt, watch Food Inc.

Cool I'll keep you posted, At the moment I do eat a lot of fish but mainly the stuff out of tins (tuna, mackerel,etc) and the frozen cod, haddock you get out of the packets. I'd imagine there could potentially be quite a difference. I'll be interested in finding out!

Edited by Thorsten, 07 October 2010 - 08:57 PM.

[Joseph_Dantes]

Cool I'll keep you posted, At the moment I do eat a lot of fish but mainly the stuff out of tins (tuna, mackerel,etc) and the frozen cod, haddock you get out of the packets. I'd imagine there could potentially be quite a difference. I'll be interested in finding out!

Tinned fish is worthless in my experience. It's a decent protein source but its micronutrient profile is nil.

I assume you're talking about standard grocery store frozen fish fillets by the "packets" reference... UK English! If so yeah those are good, but I find they're still missing the last mile of micronutrients, which is why live bought or at least on-ice fish is required.

I liked your theory on SSRI's. I had a similar experience with Saint John's Wort, of effectiveness tailing off.

[curious_sle]

Thorsten, you mention low self esteem.

I am not really that much farther on my way out of this (still got bad sleep) but reading all you mention i feel you have to work on self esteem. I would suggest cognitive behaviour therapy but it will result in you having low self esteem beeing the root cause of your depresion.

My 2c as a 15months sick as hell sufferer with all sorts of bad shit happened... (relationship down the drain, job jadda jadda).

Hope this helps. You may PM me if you like. I could mention one or two books in German...

[Thorsten3]

Thorsten, you mention low self esteem.

I am not really that much farther on my way out of this (still got bad sleep) but reading all you mention i feel you have to work on self esteem. I would suggest cognitive behaviour therapy but it will result in you having low self esteem beeing the root cause of your depresion.

My 2c as a 15months sick as hell sufferer with all sorts of bad shit happened... (relationship down the drain, job jadda jadda).

Hope this helps. You may PM me if you like. I could mention one or two books in German...

Yeah I have started CBT, had one session so far. Believe it or not I actually felt comfortable sat there telling a stranger all of this shit. But I was kind of expecting that because I know I'm ready to deal with this stuff. The only reservation I would have is the astronomical price as it would equal £160 p/m. She questioned a lot of my thought processes but I was already ahead of her whilst I was telling her stuff. Before she could say 'well why do you think this way? Is that rational?' I was already expecting her to challenege me on my destructive thought processes, so this kind of didn't have much impact in this respect. I think I am aware of what my issues are and how these thought loops damage me. I am also aware of the outside perspective, I can even be that outsider sometimes - but then I'm at it again and my hyperactive mind kicks in and I get lost in my thoughts once again. I did find the session theraputic but that's what I expected because sharing this stuff that nobody else knows is going to be a relief to some extent. I just wish I was richer and money was no object here. I know there are free agencies out there and I could even go via the route of the NHS but their therapists are less flexible (I was told if I couldn't commit to a certain time each week then therapy wouldn't happen).
I agree that self esteem is the route cause of my issues. It's proabably where my depression stems from to be fair. I'm not afraid to admit that though, life is far too short to runaway from your problems and from where I sit everyone has issues.

Those books in German what are they? Can they be translated to English?

Edited by Thorsten, 17 October 2010 - 08:19 PM.

[Thorsten3]

Since introducing TMG a couple of days ago I am noticing a strange 'buzzing' sensation. I feel a lot more motivated. An energized feeling which is quite pleasant actually. It lasts throughout the day too. This one is a keeper for now.

I currently take TMG with methyl cobalamin, folinic acid (will be switching to cerefolin), P5P, calcium and magnesium (twice daily), zinc and my usual anti-oxidants.

I am also taking perika at the moment just for the serotonin boosting effects. I know the low serotonin is the result of my depression. That's the reason citalopram had such a dramatic effect on my mood. It was like a light switch suddenly flipping on. I became optimistic, almost joyous and the miserable pessism dissapated into dust. It does make wonder what other AD's might be out there that could have such similar effects. I do still have escitalopram on the way. Despite now deciding that I don't want to pursue the SSRI option due to the side effects I will trial low dose escitalopram at some point in the future if all other options become exhausted first (diet, exercise, practical application). Anyway, the effect I am currently getting from perika are not as dramatic but it's all I have for now. Plus I never gave it a proper chance so I am going too keep taking it for a period of weeks to give it a proper go. The side effect profile is definitely good and I am definitely interested in its sleep enhancing qualities.
I would be interested in hearing from people who could recommend any mood stabalizing medications. I'm not going to jump into anything. As discussed above I am going to sort my diet out completely before pursuing pharmaceuticals. I don't think they are bad, I've certainly experienced some beautiful mood states on them but I need to find something that is actually right for me.

Why did you stop citalopram and started perika instead? Did it lose it's effects over time? Btw how much perika do you take and at what times?

I currently take 300mg dosed first thing in the morning and 300mg dosed about 14.00. I can't take any more because it disrupts my sleep. Plus the effects seem to last all day anyway. It's pretty strong stuff. I'm finding it very sedating but also quite stimulating. Not in a pure way, it doesn't feel that clean but it is certainly helping my mood and feels just as strong as a pharmaceutical. There is no euphoria, it just improves your wellbeing and mood. It would be foolish for me to stop now. I intend on seeing this through for a few weeks to see what long term improvements are being made.
As an aside I do notice the photosensitivity issues. It's a real pain for me not being able to enjoy the sunshine as much. Swings and roundabouts.

[RighteousReason]

1. I eat one fresh boiled fish per day, that I bought LIVE at the supermarket that same day. Micronutrients.
2. I mostly eat fatty and lean cuts of meat, usually fried in their own juices. Fatty means > 1/6 lard. Marbling doesn't count.
3. I also eat some fresh fruit.
4. I eat nothing else. No additives, vegetables, chemicals, oils, etc etc etc. Nada. Not even restaurant food.

No vegetables... ???

Broccoli, spinach, onions, garlic... these all seem like good things. Why would you avoid them?

[Thorsten3]

1. I eat one fresh boiled fish per day, that I bought LIVE at the supermarket that same day. Micronutrients.
2. I mostly eat fatty and lean cuts of meat, usually fried in their own juices. Fatty means > 1/6 lard. Marbling doesn't count.
3. I also eat some fresh fruit.
4. I eat nothing else. No additives, vegetables, chemicals, oils, etc etc etc. Nada. Not even restaurant food.

No vegetables... ???

Broccoli, spinach, onions, garlic... these all seem like good things. Why would you avoid them?

Maybe pesticides? Any forms of pollutants can damage brain chemistry I suppose. That would be my guess.

[kreese]

Extreme diets are not for most people. Diet may be irrelevant if your not able to properly digest and assimilate. You may also have metabolic/thyroid issues. How is your digestion, BTW? Do you get a lot of gas? Do you poo regularly, like 1-2 times a day? What consistency is your poo? Seriously, it can tell you a lot about your digestion.

Any physical symptoms? Aches, weakness, or pains? How's your energy? Do you obsess over lots of things? Worry? Do you have a lot of anxiety? How is your sleep? Do you get night sweats? Do you tend to feel hot or cold?

[Joseph_Dantes]

No vegetables... ???

Broccoli, spinach, onions, garlic... these all seem like good things. Why would you avoid them?

I can't be sure they were eaten paleolithically by my genetic ancestors.

I could gradually work them back in. But testing has a high cost, and I'm not that enthusiastic about vegetables anyway.

The meat is enough for health, and the fruit is for indulgence.

[Thorsten3]

Extreme diets are not for most people. Diet may be irrelevant if your not able to properly digest and assimilate. You may also have metabolic/thyroid issues. How is your digestion, BTW? Do you get a lot of gas? Do you poo regularly, like 1-2 times a day? What consistency is your poo? Seriously, it can tell you a lot about your digestion.

Any physical symptoms? Aches, weakness, or pains? How's your energy? Do you obsess over lots of things? Worry? Do you have a lot of anxiety? How is your sleep? Do you get night sweats? Do you tend to feel hot or cold?

Errr yes everything is fine in that department. I can assure you no problems. Forgive, but I don't want to broadcast my bowell movements on Imminst. All I know is that in that department everything is cool. I go once a day at least. No other issues from what you also mentioned in this department. Being bunged up and having that toxic filth linger in your insides is not a good thing for your body or mind. Going for a crap regularly is an anti-depressant in itself. That's why I always eat porridge every day first thing in the morning (it's the only thing that seems to get things moving consistently).

Physical symptons = No aches, weaknesses or pains (I will be pretty intolerable to pain if it presents itself). Physically I'm in top form. I gave up smoking 4 months ago and this has improved all aspects of my health. Anxiety only presents itself when I am out of my comfort zone as it does with everyone so this isn't something I have a major issue with (I used to have big issues with it).
I don't get night sweats. I notice the cold quite a bit and I become very irritable when it is hot. Past a certain temperature and summer time becomes gloomy time for me. That's the reason I was initially looking into the histadelia thing because I thought it might be something to do with histamine (as mentioned earlier in thread I have 90% of the symptons including the intolerance of heat and pain).

Edited by Thorsten, 18 October 2010 - 03:18 PM.

[RighteousReason]

No vegetables... ???

Broccoli, spinach, onions, garlic... these all seem like good things. Why would you avoid them?

I can't be sure they were eaten paleolithically by my genetic ancestors.

I could gradually work them back in. But testing has a high cost, and I'm not that enthusiastic about vegetables anyway.

The meat is enough for health, and the fruit is for indulgence.

Do you have constant diarrhea or constipation like 24/7? lol wouldn't be surprised.

[Joseph_Dantes]

Do you have constant diarrhea or constipation like 24/7? lol wouldn't be surprised.

The fact that you don't know which way to guess demonstrates your ignorance.

An all meat diet will not produce constipation, but dumps will be very infrequent and brick-like.

The more high-fiber fruit you add in, the more regular you become, up to twice daily.

This is the only diet that removed all my digestive problems.

[medievil]

Do you have constant diarrhea or constipation like 24/7? lol wouldn't be surprised.

The fact that you don't know which way to guess demonstrates your ignorance.

An all meat diet will not produce constipation, but dumps will be very infrequent and brick-like.

The more high-fiber fruit you add in, the more regular you become, up to twice daily.

This is the only diet that removed all my digestive problems.

The all meat diet is interesting, ive been on a forum once where ppl started eating a diet consistent of only saturated fat and meat, zero carbs, zero fruit or zero veggies, interesting to note was that they all felt great after their body completely adapted.

It all started after one guy made a thread on a low carb forum how he has been eating meat only for 20 years and beleives that humans actually are carnivorians.

Wheter this is the best diet i dont know, it was definatly interesting.

[Joseph_Dantes]

[The all meat diet is interesting, ive been on a forum once where ppl started eating a diet consistent of only saturated fat and meat, zero carbs, zero fruit or zero veggies, interesting to note was that they all felt great after their body completely adapted.

It all started after one guy made a thread on a low carb forum how he has been eating meat only for 20 years and beleives that humans actually are carnivorians.

Wheter this is the best diet i dont know, it was definatly interesting.

I believe a fresh fish diet is the best possible diet.

Adaptation is much easier when eating whole fresh fish, because you don't have to worry about fat ratio or micro nutrients.

You can indulge in fried lardy fish fillets as a binge food, but don't exceed 1 per day, because frying to a crisp removes a lot of nutritional value.

Indulging fruit also really helps by satisfying the sweet tooth and providing something fattening. All meat makes you very lean.

I'm so absent minded and focused on my work that I frequently skip cooking, so having fruit always on hand helps a lot. If you have a wife or chef who cooks for you, that's ideal.

Edited by Joseph_Dantes, 19 October 2010 - 05:52 AM.

[curious_sle]

I agree that self esteem is the route cause of my issues. It's proabably where my depression stems from to be fair. I'm not afraid to admit that though, life is far too short to runaway from your problems and from where I sit everyone has issues.

Those books in German what are they? Can they be translated to English?

Such was at leaste the case for me (upon applying CBT on myself etc finding the root cause on my own). As for the books... I figured german because of your nickname here which is distinctly german in nature lol ok. Um, there is plenty material on the internet regarding selfesteem... but it boils down to stuff like looking onto the mirror and saying aloud a several times "i like myself" and such and meaning it... some find it hard because heir self esteem is so low others find it ridicule because in essence they have no trouble at all... helps if you are good looking by nature i guess lol.

[Rational Madman]

Do you mind providing a list of drugs that you've tried, and describing your response to each agent? Be sure to include mood stabilizing drugs and antipsychotics, if applicable. Also, could you elaborate on your symptom presentation?

Err I don't know of what it would be described as so I will describe the symptons I have:

Listening to this is probably depressing in itself so you have to love the irony:

1. Dark morbid thought patterns - (anger at myself and other people) - frustration at other people - The thought patterns go around in circles which results in me feeling worse most of the time.
2. Become obsessed by ongoing relationships around me (at work and general life) - where do I fit in? - If I don't fit in this causes me to become distressed, angry, frustrated and I take this out on myself and others around me. I must appear to be a right douche sometimes. I know I can certainly become difficult because of this.
3. In some areas I may appear to be a confident guy as I seem to function fairly normally in everyday society but deep inside I do have very bad self esteem. The idea of picking up girls would scare the hell out of me. For the past few years I have been hoping to meet the love of my life through chance and opportunity. The thing is I am slowly learning that I am not in control of my destiny because of this. I display no signs of assertive behaviour. I know this all about practical application and there are self help books, courses I could go on so might be worth looking into.
4. I don't seem to get anxiety much now but it is still there if I go into uncertain situations. This would be apparant if I did something new. But I know this is the case for everybody. None of us like things that are out of our comfort zone.

I've tried:

1. Citalopram @20mg per day. Severe anxiety/agitation so never got past week two.
2. Paraoxetine @20mg per day. Same as above.
3. Trivastal (can't remember dosage). Made me a bit robotic.
4. Tianeptine @12.5mg thrice daily. Helped mood but didn't stop my thought patterns. If anything probably increased it.
5. Agomelatine @25mg. This kind of worked but I got sick of being in that constant state of arousal. The sleep effect didn't last and I ended up waking many times during the night.
6. SJW Perika @300mg twice daily. I had a postive reaction to it but I lost interest. I am currently giving it another go (gonna trial it properly for a few weeks) as I have decided against going the SSRI route. It does still interest me how each SSRI I have ever taken stops these obsessive damaging thought loops. Is there anything else out there that does this?

Looking at this list I don't think I have really explored much in the way of anti-depressants.

It appears that you have a mood disorder, which is a speculation that should be confirmed through evaluation. And if confirmed, I would start with a mood stabilizer---beginning with a low dose, and titrating until the optimal dose is reached.

What agents would you propose? I have tried Memantine which was a success for a short period. It initially stimulated me and then after a while on it stabalized my mood but I became slightly 'bubble wrapped'. I felt as if I was lacking something in the way of pleasure (or suffering anhedonia) and that's when I started on my dopaminergic drug pusuits which led me into the Trivastal's, Tianeptine's,etc. I still think my anhedonia is probably a sympton of my depression. Not feeling at ease when engaging socially and trying to feel part of the group leads to loss of reward and similar stuff like that. What are your opinions on Lithium Orotate? Is this not a mood stabalizer used for such purposes?
I know for sure that I don't have problems with GABA and acetylcholine. I feel relaxed most of the time and my mind is pretty sharp. My mood though I now know for sure absolutely sucks but I find hope from the people on here who in all fairness probably suffer with a lot worse than me and yet have found things that can work for them.

I would consider either Lamictal, Depakote, or Trileptal.

[Thorsten3]

Do you mind providing a list of drugs that you've tried, and describing your response to each agent? Be sure to include mood stabilizing drugs and antipsychotics, if applicable. Also, could you elaborate on your symptom presentation?

Err I don't know of what it would be described as so I will describe the symptons I have:

Listening to this is probably depressing in itself so you have to love the irony:

1. Dark morbid thought patterns - (anger at myself and other people) - frustration at other people - The thought patterns go around in circles which results in me feeling worse most of the time.
2. Become obsessed by ongoing relationships around me (at work and general life) - where do I fit in? - If I don't fit in this causes me to become distressed, angry, frustrated and I take this out on myself and others around me. I must appear to be a right douche sometimes. I know I can certainly become difficult because of this.
3. In some areas I may appear to be a confident guy as I seem to function fairly normally in everyday society but deep inside I do have very bad self esteem. The idea of picking up girls would scare the hell out of me. For the past few years I have been hoping to meet the love of my life through chance and opportunity. The thing is I am slowly learning that I am not in control of my destiny because of this. I display no signs of assertive behaviour. I know this all about practical application and there are self help books, courses I could go on so might be worth looking into.
4. I don't seem to get anxiety much now but it is still there if I go into uncertain situations. This would be apparant if I did something new. But I know this is the case for everybody. None of us like things that are out of our comfort zone.

I've tried:

1. Citalopram @20mg per day. Severe anxiety/agitation so never got past week two.
2. Paraoxetine @20mg per day. Same as above.
3. Trivastal (can't remember dosage). Made me a bit robotic.
4. Tianeptine @12.5mg thrice daily. Helped mood but didn't stop my thought patterns. If anything probably increased it.
5. Agomelatine @25mg. This kind of worked but I got sick of being in that constant state of arousal. The sleep effect didn't last and I ended up waking many times during the night.
6. SJW Perika @300mg twice daily. I had a postive reaction to it but I lost interest. I am currently giving it another go (gonna trial it properly for a few weeks) as I have decided against going the SSRI route. It does still interest me how each SSRI I have ever taken stops these obsessive damaging thought loops. Is there anything else out there that does this?

Looking at this list I don't think I have really explored much in the way of anti-depressants.

It appears that you have a mood disorder, which is a speculation that should be confirmed through evaluation. And if confirmed, I would start with a mood stabilizer---beginning with a low dose, and titrating until the optimal dose is reached.

What agents would you propose? I have tried Memantine which was a success for a short period. It initially stimulated me and then after a while on it stabalized my mood but I became slightly 'bubble wrapped'. I felt as if I was lacking something in the way of pleasure (or suffering anhedonia) and that's when I started on my dopaminergic drug pusuits which led me into the Trivastal's, Tianeptine's,etc. I still think my anhedonia is probably a sympton of my depression. Not feeling at ease when engaging socially and trying to feel part of the group leads to loss of reward and similar stuff like that. What are your opinions on Lithium Orotate? Is this not a mood stabalizer used for such purposes?
I know for sure that I don't have problems with GABA and acetylcholine. I feel relaxed most of the time and my mind is pretty sharp. My mood though I now know for sure absolutely sucks but I find hope from the people on here who in all fairness probably suffer with a lot worse than me and yet have found things that can work for them.

I would consider either Lamictal, Depakote, or Trileptal.

Thanks.

That was a no to Lithium Oroate then? I have seen you mention in the past that you don't think much of it.

I respect your opinion rol82 but those meds have some horrific sides to them. Out of the three I would be hard pushed to pick one. What is it about lithium that doesn't impress you? Is it the efficiacy? (or lack of)

[Thorsten3]

I agree that self esteem is the route cause of my issues. It's proabably where my depression stems from to be fair. I'm not afraid to admit that though, life is far too short to runaway from your problems and from where I sit everyone has issues.

Those books in German what are they? Can they be translated to English?

Such was at leaste the case for me (upon applying CBT on myself etc finding the root cause on my own). As for the books... I figured german because of your nickname here which is distinctly german in nature lol ok. Um, there is plenty material on the internet regarding selfesteem... but it boils down to stuff like looking onto the mirror and saying aloud a several times "i like myself" and such and meaning it... some find it hard because heir self esteem is so low others find it ridicule because in essence they have no trouble at all... helps if you are good looking by nature i guess lol.

Nah I'm not German mate, Thorsten is my nickname.

I know what you're saying about all of that positive thinking stuff. You have to believe in yourself, this much I know. Err think i'm fairly normal looking - no weird deformaties growing from my head or anything lol
I agree with you up to a point that people who look good seem to get more from life to a certain extent but I think what goes on upstairs counts for a hell of a lot too. I see some right ugly gits with really hot women. They must have something - lots of wit no doubt

[Rational Madman]

Do you mind providing a list of drugs that you've tried, and describing your response to each agent? Be sure to include mood stabilizing drugs and antipsychotics, if applicable. Also, could you elaborate on your symptom presentation?

Err I don't know of what it would be described as so I will describe the symptons I have:

Listening to this is probably depressing in itself so you have to love the irony:

1. Dark morbid thought patterns - (anger at myself and other people) - frustration at other people - The thought patterns go around in circles which results in me feeling worse most of the time.
2. Become obsessed by ongoing relationships around me (at work and general life) - where do I fit in? - If I don't fit in this causes me to become distressed, angry, frustrated and I take this out on myself and others around me. I must appear to be a right douche sometimes. I know I can certainly become difficult because of this.
3. In some areas I may appear to be a confident guy as I seem to function fairly normally in everyday society but deep inside I do have very bad self esteem. The idea of picking up girls would scare the hell out of me. For the past few years I have been hoping to meet the love of my life through chance and opportunity. The thing is I am slowly learning that I am not in control of my destiny because of this. I display no signs of assertive behaviour. I know this all about practical application and there are self help books, courses I could go on so might be worth looking into.
4. I don't seem to get anxiety much now but it is still there if I go into uncertain situations. This would be apparant if I did something new. But I know this is the case for everybody. None of us like things that are out of our comfort zone.

I've tried:

1. Citalopram @20mg per day. Severe anxiety/agitation so never got past week two.
2. Paraoxetine @20mg per day. Same as above.
3. Trivastal (can't remember dosage). Made me a bit robotic.
4. Tianeptine @12.5mg thrice daily. Helped mood but didn't stop my thought patterns. If anything probably increased it.
5. Agomelatine @25mg. This kind of worked but I got sick of being in that constant state of arousal. The sleep effect didn't last and I ended up waking many times during the night.
6. SJW Perika @300mg twice daily. I had a postive reaction to it but I lost interest. I am currently giving it another go (gonna trial it properly for a few weeks) as I have decided against going the SSRI route. It does still interest me how each SSRI I have ever taken stops these obsessive damaging thought loops. Is there anything else out there that does this?

Looking at this list I don't think I have really explored much in the way of anti-depressants.

It appears that you have a mood disorder, which is a speculation that should be confirmed through evaluation. And if confirmed, I would start with a mood stabilizer---beginning with a low dose, and titrating until the optimal dose is reached.

What agents would you propose? I have tried Memantine which was a success for a short period. It initially stimulated me and then after a while on it stabalized my mood but I became slightly 'bubble wrapped'. I felt as if I was lacking something in the way of pleasure (or suffering anhedonia) and that's when I started on my dopaminergic drug pusuits which led me into the Trivastal's, Tianeptine's,etc. I still think my anhedonia is probably a sympton of my depression. Not feeling at ease when engaging socially and trying to feel part of the group leads to loss of reward and similar stuff like that. What are your opinions on Lithium Orotate? Is this not a mood stabalizer used for such purposes?
I know for sure that I don't have problems with GABA and acetylcholine. I feel relaxed most of the time and my mind is pretty sharp. My mood though I now know for sure absolutely sucks but I find hope from the people on here who in all fairness probably suffer with a lot worse than me and yet have found things that can work for them.

I would consider either Lamictal, Depakote, or Trileptal.

Thanks.

That was a no to Lithium Oroate then? I have seen you mention in the past that you don't think much of it.

I respect your opinion rol82 but those meds have some horrific sides to them. Out of the three I would be hard pushed to pick one. What is it about lithium that doesn't impress you? Is it the efficiacy? (or lack of)

Lithium would be a perfectly good choice as a mood stabilizer, and I should have included it in the aforementioned group. The orotate form may have some therapeutic value, but there's a paucity of quantitative evidence to support its use. So perhaps you should try it just for the purpose of ruling it out as an option, and giving yourself some peace of mind. The mood stabilizers are indeed associated with side effects, but in balance, provide patient outcomes superior to those not taking the drugs. And you should remember, you can always start with a low base dose, which would be associated with a much lower incidence of side effects. But you certainly have to do something to stabilize what appears to be mood disorder that's wreaking havoc, and promises long term neurological damage if not brought under control.

Edited by Rol82, 28 October 2010 - 08:56 PM.

[curious_sle]

Nah I'm not German mate, Thorsten is my nickname.

I know what you're saying about all of that positive thinking stuff. You have to believe in yourself, this much I know. Err think i'm fairly normal looking - no weird deformaties growing from my head or anything lol
I agree with you up to a point that people who look good seem to get more from life to a certain extent but I think what goes on upstairs counts for a hell of a lot too. I see some right ugly gits with really hot women. They must have something - lots of wit no doubt

Heh, ok.

another thing... how about trying priming i.e. have a printout of words that describe the way you would like to be feeling etc?
http://en.wikipedia....ing_(psychology)
funny thing eh?

besides... i am not shure if you tried mirtazapin... shure did wonders for my sleep and i "survived" quite horrendous things emotionaly speaking quite well while on it.

(now i just use doxyclamin and ocasionaly some 7,5mg mirtazapin when mind is racing and i can't get to sleep)

cheers mate

[smoothVTer]

I'll just cut to the chase, for what worked for me. In order of efficacy/importance:

(1) Hit the gym. Run 3 miles 3x/week. Lift weights. Go slow and light at first, but force yourself to do it. You'll want to quit, you'll want to cry. Just do it. Purpose: hard physical activity is the #1 anti depressant bar none. And you start to look better which is a confidence booster.

(2) High quality fish oil. Ethyl EPA/DHA if available. There is a product called Lovaza, prescription only, which I convinced my GP to give to me due to eight studies I printed out and gave to him. Lovaza is used for high triglycerides. Purpose: restore you brain cells' membranes to pliability.

(3) 5-HTP, enteric coated if possible. Build back up your serotonin stores. DO NOT take in conjunction with or around SSRI's or SNRI's (it'll mess you up, bad) A little in the morning and more at night. Purpose: the link between serotonin and depression is a fact.

(4) L-glutamine, N-acetyl-glucosamine, aloe juice, probiotics & yogurt. This was particular to me, might be for you also. These substances were used to restore my absorption of food, vitamins, minerals and supplements. Purpose: I cannot tell you why exactly but my depression, which lasted for 4 years, caused my digestive system to go into wack mode and somehow left me damaged. Taking the aforementioned supplements and foods helped my stomach and gut calm down so I could actually assimilate the 'medicines' I was taking.

(5) Vitamin D. Just do it. There's no reason not to. Purpose: studies linking low Vit D to depression, pain symptoms and mental health. Cheap. Get the D3 version. Better yet, get yourself tested. Unless you work outside for 6 hours a day without a shirt on, you're probably deficient/insufficient.

(6) A good multivitamin with zinc.

(7) Phosphatidylserine + vitamin C at night. Depression made me tired as hell but on edge all the time especially while trying to sleep or trying to stay asleep. Purpose: These two supplements lower cortisol and might help you relax somewhat, as well as possibly repair the damage done to nerve and brain cells by the depression.

[Thorsten3]

Nah I'm not German mate, Thorsten is my nickname.

I know what you're saying about all of that positive thinking stuff. You have to believe in yourself, this much I know. Err think i'm fairly normal looking - no weird deformaties growing from my head or anything lol
I agree with you up to a point that people who look good seem to get more from life to a certain extent but I think what goes on upstairs counts for a hell of a lot too. I see some right ugly gits with really hot women. They must have something - lots of wit no doubt

Heh, ok.

another thing... how about trying priming i.e. have a printout of words that describe the way you would like to be feeling etc?
http://en.wikipedia....ing_(psychology)
funny thing eh?

besides... i am not shure if you tried mirtazapin... shure did wonders for my sleep and i "survived" quite horrendous things emotionaly speaking quite well while on it.

(now i just use doxyclamin and ocasionaly some 7,5mg mirtazapin when mind is racing and i can't get to sleep)

cheers mate

Remeron was indeed a consideration of mine. Interesting you mention that. If it came with the same level of 'depression elimination' capabilities as the SSRI's and without the anxiety - I for sure would be very interested. Would it have that capability? Not sure. It is described on there as being the opposite to SSRI's and can be used to try and stop serotonin syndrome. Good for apetite, mood, libido and has positive effects on memory. Sounds pretty dopaminergic to me. Even so, pretty interesting. Infact the way it is described on wiki actually makes it sound like something I would very seriously consider. Thanks for bringing this back to my attention.
My current approach is following a certain diet and a low dose of lithium orotate each day. It has had some positive impact but I am still waking each day with my mind in overdrive. SSRI's so far are the only thing that stop this completely. But yeah I can't tolerate the sides. I'm giving lithium a try for 2/3 weeks if I don't notice benfits (with the diet as well) I may decide to go with mirtzapine or a different mood stabalizer.

[Thorsten3]

I'll just cut to the chase, for what worked for me. In order of efficacy/importance:

(1) Hit the gym. Run 3 miles 3x/week. Lift weights. Go slow and light at first, but force yourself to do it. You'll want to quit, you'll want to cry. Just do it. Purpose: hard physical activity is the #1 anti depressant bar none. And you start to look better which is a confidence booster.

(2) High quality fish oil. Ethyl EPA/DHA if available. There is a product called Lovaza, prescription only, which I convinced my GP to give to me due to eight studies I printed out and gave to him. Lovaza is used for high triglycerides. Purpose: restore you brain cells' membranes to pliability.

(3) 5-HTP, enteric coated if possible. Build back up your serotonin stores. DO NOT take in conjunction with or around SSRI's or SNRI's (it'll mess you up, bad) A little in the morning and more at night. Purpose: the link between serotonin and depression is a fact.

(4) L-glutamine, N-acetyl-glucosamine, aloe juice, probiotics & yogurt. This was particular to me, might be for you also. These substances were used to restore my absorption of food, vitamins, minerals and supplements. Purpose: I cannot tell you why exactly but my depression, which lasted for 4 years, caused my digestive system to go into wack mode and somehow left me damaged. Taking the aforementioned supplements and foods helped my stomach and gut calm down so I could actually assimilate the 'medicines' I was taking.

(5) Vitamin D. Just do it. There's no reason not to. Purpose: studies linking low Vit D to depression, pain symptoms and mental health. Cheap. Get the D3 version. Better yet, get yourself tested. Unless you work outside for 6 hours a day without a shirt on, you're probably deficient/insufficient.

(6) A good multivitamin with zinc.

(7) Phosphatidylserine + vitamin C at night. Depression made me tired as hell but on edge all the time especially while trying to sleep or trying to stay asleep. Purpose: These two supplements lower cortisol and might help you relax somewhat, as well as possibly repair the damage done to nerve and brain cells by the depression.

Thanks, this is solid advice. I do take D3. I am going to join the gym pretty soon, also going to start swimming. Lovaza? I wonder if prescription fish oil is any different to the stuff you can buy on the net? I wouldn't know to be fair. For the record I have found the most success for mood to be from the higher EPA based supplements. I recently switched to a more balanced EPA/DHA combination but I may go back to the higher EPA concentrate.
Phosphatidylserine was something I was considering a while back but decided against it because with the amount of fish I eat I am sure I must get enough of it.
I have actually ditched all vitamin supplements recently. I eat a few superfoods daily which I am sure contribute to a already fairly balanced diet. I'm not convinced that high dosing of vitamins is good for the body and based on human evolution it could be somewhat damaging to the body. There are a couple I have kept though. D3 and K2 I supplement based on a cronometre I have recorded the past few weeks.
I could never tolerate 5HTP it made me irritable and aggresive. Weird how this stuff can effect us all differently

[nito]

I read inositol (vitamin b) could work for depression too.

[Thorsten3]

I read inositol (vitamin b) could work for depression too.

I'm thinking of combining it with Lithium.

[24 Is Ours]

Hello Thorsten.

I've suffered from mood problems for a long time myself. Moods can have a lot to do with what you eat and this was especially the case for me. Cutting out Gluten and Casein might be a really good idea. I'm currently on a gluten-free, dairy-free diet and its been about a month now and the improvement is life changing. It's not easy, and it's very stressful but I'm getting through. If I eat gluten I know right away because repetitive thoughts and depression sets right back in. If you're sensitive to Gluten like I am you'll know right away after cutting it out TOTALLY for even just a few days!


"The peptides from gluten and casein are important because they can react with opiate receptors in the brain, thus mimicking the effects of opiate drugs like heroin and morphine"
This explains my withdrawal tendencies..

--Check out this site: http://www.greatplai...eng/peptide.asp

Checking you're thyroid levels is also very important. You're thyroid releases hormones that are responsible for stabilizing our moods. I personally take some iodine everyday and that seemed to help me out quite a bit!! Iodine is very important because it always flushes out "Bromine, Fluoride, and other heavy metals" in the body. High levels of any of these can result in mood instability/negative thoughts.

http://findarticles....y/ai_100767875/


This is really interesting about bromine:
http://www.breastcan...ancetheory.html

I went through the detox for a month and it wasn't pretty but I've now recovered and I feel wonderful.


Always be careful with Iodine if you supplement it because it could make you hyperthyroid if you take too much. Make sure to get you're levels checked before/after supplementation, if you decide to.

Oh and one more thing...
If you're worried about chemicals and toxic metals in food, there is something called Sodium Alginate. I take 2 capsules about 20 minutes before every meal. This stuff literally binds to chemicals and toxins in our food and helps it pass through our stool. It's very very useful!

If theres anything else I could help you with you could message me!

Dennis

Edited by 24 Is Ours, 31 October 2010 - 10:59 PM.

[Thorsten3]

Hello Thorsten.

I've suffered from mood problems for a long time myself. Moods can have a lot to do with what you eat and this was especially the case for me. Cutting out Gluten and Casein might be a really good idea. I'm currently on a gluten-free, dairy-free diet and its been about a month now and the improvement is life changing. It's not easy, and it's very stressful but I'm getting through. If I eat gluten I know right away because repetitive thoughts and depression sets right back in. If you're sensitive to Gluten like I am you'll know right away after cutting it out TOTALLY for even just a few days!


"The peptides from gluten and casein are important because they can react with opiate receptors in the brain, thus mimicking the effects of opiate drugs like heroin and morphine"
This explains my withdrawal tendencies..

--Check out this site: http://www.greatplai...eng/peptide.asp

Checking you're thyroid levels is also very important. You're thyroid releases hormones that are responsible for stabilizing our moods. I personally take some iodine everyday and that seemed to help me out quite a bit!! Iodine is very important because it always flushes out "Bromine, Fluoride, and other heavy metals" in the body. High levels of any of these can result in mood instability/negative thoughts.

http://findarticles....y/ai_100767875/


This is really interesting about bromine:
http://www.breastcan...ancetheory.html

I went through the detox for a month and it wasn't pretty but I've now recovered and I feel wonderful.


Always be careful with Iodine if you supplement it because it could make you hyperthyroid if you take too much. Make sure to get you're levels checked before/after supplementation, if you decide to.

Oh and one more thing...
If you're worried about chemicals and toxic metals in food, there is something called Sodium Alginate. I take 2 capsules about 20 minutes before every meal. This stuff literally binds to chemicals and toxins in our food and helps it pass through our stool. It's very very useful!

If theres anything else I could help you with you could message me!

Dennis

I have eradicated dairy and wheat from my diet recently and I attribute all of my recent improvements down to this. There is still a lot of scope for improvement for me. Each day I have tempting food thrust under my nose and it is hard to say no (also must appear rude sometimes!). I've also noticed how hard it is to eat food that doesn't contain wheat and dairy. If you can't have bread, pasta, spaghetti, milk, cheese and all the foods that contain these in small amounts it doesn't leave a lot. Don't eat red meat, don't eat processed foods, don't consume large amounts of sugar - seriously you don't have much to choose from.

How do you get by? What sort of foods/diets/meals would you recommned? This would be very beneficial if you have any ideas. I try really hard with trying to stay militant and focused with this but sometimes I crumble and part of this is down to the fact that I just don't have enough meal choices that are enough to satisfy me.

Thanks for the links about opioid peptides. I have been aware for some time about that link with dairy and wheat. Food for the zombies!

Interesting what you mention about iodine.

I've never heard of sodium alginate. Something I'll have to look into, thanks. I was using NAC for such purposes - Also zinc for getting rid of mercury but now I don't take any supplements. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in stuff that could still potentially help me though. Thanks again.

Edited by Thorsten, 31 October 2010 - 11:41 PM.