10 replies to this topic

[caruga]

Just wondering. I've been supplementing very heavy doses (2 grams) before sleep and have very dream-filled sleeps as a result. Should I co-supplement with anything?

[chrono]

By my calculation, choline bitartrate is about 41% choline by weight.

Supps that increase or enhance acetylcholine seem to have an effect on dreams for some people. Piracetam does this for me, though I don't know about choline precursors, because they tend to give me insomnia.

I don't think cosupplementation is necessary, unless you're trying to accomplish something specific?

[pamojja]

By my calculation, choline bitartrate is about 41% choline by weight.

Very helpful.

Just got for the first time Alpha-GPC powder send. How much choline does this contain?

Thanks.

[chrono]

^^ Just about the same, conicidentally, since choline bitartrate and alpha GPC have about the same molecular weight. However, keep in mind that many bulk powders are only 50% alpha GPC, the rest being something like maltose or dextrose to prevent excessive moisture being pulled from the air. Alpha GPC also has some slightly different pharmacokinetics and cellular functions, so the amount of choline can't be compared directly to something like choline bitartrate (I'd guess GPC exerts a greater effect on ACh synthesis per 'unit' of choline).

Edited by chrono, 19 October 2010 - 11:49 AM.

[pamojja]

^^ Just about the same, conicidentally, since choline bitartrate and alpha GPC have about the same molecular weight. However, keep in mind that many bulk powders are only 50% alpha GPC, the rest being ...

Thanks for all this information. Find it somehow misleading that bulk powder providers don't mention the actual nutrient percentage...

Is there a simply way to explain to a chemistry nerd how to calculate the actual content of a compound by molecular weight?

As an example with Phosphatidylcholine? ;-)

[chrono]

I imagine that bulk powder suppliers would usually tell you it's only 50%; it seems that both SP and Cerebral Health have this info displayed in the product title, though I had to e-mail to find out what the other 50% was.

I probably don't know any chemistry beyond like, the first two chapters in a high school textbook All you need to do to calculate the % of each compound is this:

• Find the total molecular weight/molar mass of the compound; Wikipedia frequently has this info, but if not, searching google usually finds you a data sheet. In the case of PC, it's 760g/mol (a mole is just a certain number of molecules)
• Find the molecular weight of the portion you want to know the % of. (Choline is 104g/mol, but I had to find this from the weight of choline chloride by subtracting the weight of chlorine)
• Divide to find the percentage of choline in PC: ~13%

The only common snag is if the target compound has more than one of the molecules you want to know about (e.g. like water has two hydrogens). Looking at the various compound names or just the pictures of the molecules should tell you if this is the case.

[pamojja]

.. the percentage of choline in PC: ~13%

Thanks for spelling it out again.

Till now I kept a spreadsheet with my intake of all nutrients - supplemental as well as dietary. How foolish to assume merely insignificant differences, and simply comparing these two (.. with a choline content of, for example, Phosphatidylcholine as little as ~13%!)

Choline (as choline bitartrate) ... 550mg

So a daily dose of Vimmortal actually contains 225mg of choline. And a big capsule with 400mg PC about 50mg only...

[chrono]

Choline (as choline bitartrate) ... 550mg

So a daily dose of Vimmortal actually contains 225mg of choline.

It's probably 550mg of actual choline. When written the way this was, the amount usually refers to the substance before the parentheses, with "(as choline bitartrate)" telling what form it comes in.

Edited by chrono, 20 October 2010 - 10:57 AM.

[pamojja]

Ok, let me try this for example with sulbutiamine:

The only common snag is if the target compound has more than one of the molecules you want to know about (e.g. like water has two hydrogens). Looking at the various compound names or just the pictures of the molecules should tell you if this is the case.

Sulbutiamine has a molar mass of 702.89 g/mol
with the systematic name:
[4-[(4-amino-2-methyl-pyrimidin-5-yl)methyl-formyl-
amino]-3-[2-[(4-amino-2-methyl-pyrimidin-5-yl)methyl-
formyl-amino]-5-(2-methylpropanoyloxy)pent-2-en-3-
yl]disulfanyl-pent-3-enyl] 2-methylpropanoate

Thiamine's mass is 337.27 g/mol
Name:
2-[3-[(4-amino- 2-methyl- pyrimidin- 5-yl) methyl]- 4-methyl- thiazol- 5-yl] ethanol


So the name tells me this is the case and I'm already stuck..

[chrono]

Ok, let me try this for example with sulbutiamine:

This probably wouldn't work with sulbutiamine; it's a synthetic derivative, while the two previous examples were just choline with different stuff stuck onto it. If you look at the picture of the thiamine molecule, it doesn't appear anywhere in the structure of sulbutiamine. I don't know the mechanism without looking, but it would have to be converted to thiamine in the body through a more complex reaction.

[pamojja]

Ok. That's for someone more advanced than me..

For completion sake from this other thread:

How does a typical 250mg dosage of CDP-Choline fit into dietary choline? Just an additional 250mg?

Mol. weight of Choline is ~104. Mol. Weight of CDP-choline is 489.

So dietary choline in 250 mg CDP-choline is 250*104/289 = 53mg

Was just wondering how much phosphate I would get from PC:
Phosphoditylcholine ... 760,09 g/mol
Phosphate ... 94,973
.. about 12,5 % Phosphate.