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Can We Live Forever?


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Poll: Can We Live Forever? (130 member(s) have cast votes)

Can We Live Forever?

  1. Yes, we can live forever. (64 votes [52.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.03%

  2. No, we can't (20 votes [16.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.26%

  3. Maybe (39 votes [31.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.71%

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#1 Bruce Klein

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Posted 22 August 2002 - 08:02 AM


<-from bjklein.com

Just a quick poll to get a feel for the sentiment of the group. Thanks!

#2 caliban

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Posted 23 August 2002 - 02:32 AM

It would of course be immediately necessary to ask for a specification.

so since someone has to do the deed :

What do you mean by "live"?
What do you mean by "we"?
What do you mean by "forever"?
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#3 Bruce Klein

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Posted 23 August 2002 - 04:19 AM

Ugg, you had to ask that ;)
I'm sure you've had a chance to read the Immortality FAQ, but if not, that's where I'm coming from.

Basically, I'd suggest that there are no physical laws that say humans can't live for billions of years.

For people that want to keep their biobodies, simply relpace the broken body parts and freshen up the dna with super nanotech.

For those that want to upgrade, transhumanization for the posthuman set. And then there's uploading for the more adventerous, and there you have it, a perfectly good vehicle, or new substrate to get us to the year 20,000,000,001 and beyond. Happy New Year 20 Billion & 1!

The only question in my mind is the one of heat death and cosmic expansion (entropy). Is the universe infinite? (this question could be whole new topic, but we can discuss this here)

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#4 rick45

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Posted 01 September 2002 - 08:36 AM

There's got to be a way. The basic phenomenon of being alive and concious as a reasoning, cognitive creature has been demonstrated-- as we speak. We need to discover the universal physical principles of life and human cognition, so demonstrated, and then change the universe to suit our physical immortalist desire.

The only disappointing aspect to this program is that I've been born too early-- that technology and civilization won't be advanced enough to permit my life-system hardening and redundancy before I run out of time. Hopefully, my cryonics membership will be of value in this case.

#5 Bruce Klein

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Posted 01 September 2002 - 08:54 AM

Rick said:

The only disappointing aspect to this program is that I've been born too early-- that technology and civilization won't be advanced enough to permit my life-system hardening and redundancy before I run out of time. Hopefully, my cryonics membership will be of value in this case

It's great to hear that you have a cryonics membership... hopefully you won't need to use it. I know the current technological advancements don't appear to be going fast enough, however, we may be pleasantly surprised in the near future as such advancements in AI may be our "blessing". I'm referring to the exponential increase in computing speed and storage capacity. I'd be interested to know if you've stumbled across the concept of The Singularity yet? Thanks..

#6 DeltaVee

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Posted 22 October 2002 - 06:53 PM

I would only want to live forever if the quality of that living is within certain parameters.... I would want to be able to mobilise, breathe, think and be creative in that extended life.... this is not a simple question to give a response to in a poll...

#7 Lazarus Long

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Posted 22 October 2002 - 10:35 PM

I am excited to meet someone that has chosen the name DeltaVee. I invented a nickname for a young female character in my novel seven years ago when I began it, Her name was to be Delia Valeria but she gets known by Deltavee as a hot shot gamer and space kid (skid) pilot.

Do you like flying?

Welcome aboard DeeVee ;)

#8 caliban

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Posted 25 October 2002 - 06:34 PM

DeltaVee:
I would only want to live forever (...)


Maybe we should have a poll:

Do you WANT to live forever?

But I got a feeling that the results here might not be very representative [sleep]

#9 Guest_Still Kicking_*

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Posted 24 November 2002 - 11:19 PM

Yes.

Under any circumstances.

#10 Mr. Genesis

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Posted 18 December 2002 - 05:27 PM

We are biological, biochemical beings of light. Genetically speaking, it is our heritage and our inheritance to become 'immortal'. It is an ancient process and is not really part of the 'modern madness' being persued today. Within ever human cell resides over three billion icons of information. Less than 1% of those codons of intelligence are being used by Life to maintain the typical, death conscious, human organism. There are very specific guidelines laid down by Life that are designed to bring man into a real and tangible daily existence that 'equates to' incrementally becoming that which humans are genetically inclined to be...'immortal'. But it is nothing like what any of us might debate or argue. This is a reality that must be lived in order to understand Its Nature. It is a state of being that will never again experience illness of any kind (emotional or mental as well as physical), it will never see disease. It will eventually 'connect' a person into what scientists are calling the Zero Point Field Energy Continuum. And it will bring with it untold human powers for 'calling upon' the elements of the Earth. The 'science of' immortality has been around for millenia...'hidden away' within the 99% of our inactive genetic codes simply awaiting our willingness to submit to its Requirements for Activation. Although the Universal processes associated with this biological transmutation of the human organism are infintiely complex and incomprehensible to our present 'death conscious' existence, its acitvation is fundamentally simple and available to anyone willing to 'do the work'. Its mysterious ways are locked within a truth whose time has come...you are...you become what you eat! As a person truthfully examines this simple reality an infinte world of cause and effect opens to human understandings. Ancient metaphors such as 'being born of the water' and 'being born of the Spirit' take on new meaning. Do you 'Eat the flesh of the Son fo God...Do you drink the blood of the Son of God'? These ancient cryptograms of information carry within their message a whole new world of human exploration. It is a 'final fronteir' of existence and it is within each of us awaiting our willingness to unravel its riddle.

#11 fruitimmortal

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Posted 25 December 2002 - 07:33 AM

Dynamic Post Mr. Genesis! Diet is extremly immortant but also the enviroment must be life supporting. what kind of diet do you eat?

#12 Bruce Klein

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Posted 21 January 2003 - 11:59 PM

Relivant to this topic.. an exchange from CoV.. by Jake Sapiens & Bruce J. Klein

Jake says:
I find this a somewhat baffling attitude. Why all or nothing? Even if you don't achieve absolute immortality

Bruce Says:  
To talk about the future strength of the gene pool is great.  I support the future well being of your children and the children of all other humans.

However, that does not preclude us from wanting the best for ourselves as well.  Our grandfathers and grandmothers may have resigned themselves to die, but we don't have to also.  

The point i'd like to make is that if one believes there is nothing after death, then death should be avoided at all cost.  



Hmmm, this is an interesting dillemma. I believe there is nothing after death also, and yet for some reason I don't feel like Death is something to be avoided at ALL costs. Obviously atheists have emotionally survived in times when physical immortality seemed as impossible as a supernatural afterlife.

BJKlein says: If one believes that oblivion is the result of the loss of information and connections within the brain, then one should get  cryonics policy and avoid flying

.

Well, I haven't seriously considered a cryonics policy yet, but I would think immortality ought not to serve as an excuse to avoid living. Living an enjoyable life generally entails a certain amount of risk. Yes we may engineer and manage some of the risks, but unintended consequences will still materialize. As I told a few people after 9/11/01 I am willing to live in a world where a few madmen can kill thousands. Not that I want that to happen, but I feel willing to take those risks.


BJKlein: If one believes that religion is a myth and there is no God to take care of us after death, one should embrace heaven on earth and strive for immortality.


I agree that we should strive for heaven on earth, and that we should embrace longevity as a practical goal. But to me these conclusions do not have anything significant to do with there not being a God, or religion being a myth.

I think immortality can provide an ideal, and from a memetic PoV it helps to have ideals, but I think Longevity makes for more practical discussions. Besides we will never really know when we have actually achieved immortality since it requires that we live forever in order to fulfill it. We can think we have achieved immortality after a few hundred years only to get wiped out with the rest of humanity by the next asteroid collision. Perhaps we can talk about more practical kinds of immortality. For example if a person lives to be 400 years old, we can say that person has practically achieved a certain kind of immortality, in that he or she will not actually belong to some particular historical time the way that we think of nomal humans, even particularly old ones.

Sometimes I think spending to much time concentrating on things like overcoming the heat death of the universe, can make one's ideas sound impractically radical. Perhaps it can make a good armchair discussion for those already converted to the idea of Longevity/immortality. As far as the universe's end, however, as much as I appreciate the heat death scenario, it doesn't make for a practical point of concern, except in our ongoing efforts to figure out how the universe works. By the time we get it all figured out, we may be looking at an entirely different scientific escatology.

-Jake

Original CoV Thread >>

#13 Bruce Klein

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Posted 22 January 2003 - 12:15 AM

Jake Said:

Obviously atheists have emotionally survived in times when physical immortality seemed as impossible as a supernatural afterlife.

Heh.. Atheist have survived emotionally, but the had to die physically because there was no other option. Ben Franklin lamented: I wish it were possible... to invent a method of embalming drowned persons, in such a manner that they might be recalled to life at any period

Doesn't sound to me like he was completely, emotionally happy with the current options. He went on to say, : But... in all probability, we live in a century too little advanced, and too near the infancy of science, to see such an art brought in our time to its perfection..." - Ben Franklin (Apr 1773)

Heat Deat
Immortalist are not totally fixated on the problem of heat death, it's simple one of the risks within a galaxy of potential life ending sceanrios. We simply wish to tag an answer, a real physically possible answer to the question, "Can we survive heat death?"... as of yet, there's only a small number of people interested in this research.

Plus, it's be a big plus for an immortalist to know that heat death does not mean an absolute end to life.

We're making some progress: note this article: http://www.imminst.o...ST&f=1&t=587&s=

#14 garners

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 05:08 PM

[quote]As far as the universe's end, however, as much as I appreciate the heat death scenario, it doesn't make for a practical point of concern, except in our ongoing efforts to figure out how the universe works.

Absolutely!

I see no evidence that the 'universe' has not always existed or that it will not exist forever. After all, existence exists, always has and will, and we (and the universe) are part of existence. That sort of rules out the need for a creator. [wacko]

As to living forever, it seems to be a no brainer that biological immortality is within our grasp today, so you may be one of the first to live in perpetual, youthful health instead of the last to die of old age. ;)

Physical immortality is a tougher nut to crack, because if you step in front of a speeding bullet or train, all bets may be off. However, since we have the ability, through technology, to make reality do our bidding, physical immortality will just take a little longer.

Since I hate the cold, cryonics just doesn't have much appeal to me, especially since during that cold spell, I wouldn't be alive, would I? I prefer the living in perpetual, youthful health and just avoiding them speeding trains and bullets.

gene

#15 caliban

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 05:25 AM

Basically, I'd suggest that there are no physical laws that say humans can't live for billions of years.

So the topic is about heat death.

No hard feelings, but I SO do not care about discussing heat death. [wacko]

Why is it that people -even those not remotely interested in personal life extension- so fascinated about wether the Universe will come to some form of "end" ?

But to answer the question:
I don't know enough about he law of physics, and how we might be able to use or bend them. I know even less about the law of probability but I see that it clearly suggests that death is very close to an inevitability.
My feeling: Nothing and no one will ever "live" forever.

Now who did you define "live" again?

Oh. btw. the other poll suggested back in October is finally open:
[>] Do you WANT to live forever?

#16 Dyrwen

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Posted 13 February 2003 - 10:39 PM

We can live forever, but we just have yet to create the technology and biological helpers to make it work. Otherwise, I don't see how it could occur. Stopping the aging process seems very difficult considering the fact that we break down so early in life. It would take much research and many new technologies to make all of this work. If we can, I'd love to. ;) If not, big deal? Nothing all the world hasn't experienced before.

#17 Bruce Klein

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Posted 13 February 2003 - 10:45 PM

We can live forever...If we can, I'd love to. ;) If not, big deal? Nothing all the world hasn't experienced before.

This is true, however, It's probably not a very good justification for death. If the whole world decided to jump off a cliff, I wouldn't follow.. A good justification for death would be a plausible explanation for an afterlife. No one has come up with this yet. Therefore, I think it's a rather big deal. lol

Welcome Dyrwen!

#18 Dyrwen

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Posted 14 February 2003 - 08:05 PM

Well, as an atheist. I do not fear my own death because I have seen no evidence of any afterlife to fear nor look foreward to. If we cannot live forever, we will just continue to die. No one would notice the difference, if none of us were able to live that long. We all know we will die, but some choose to stop that from happening. This site appears to want to try and find a way to logically do it in physicality. Others feel that when they "die" they will have a soul and that will live on forever in an afterlife of many varieties. Not a big deal, if no one makes it into one. Those with an afterlife perception shall make it a big deal, but if you've got no perception of that. Things remain the same and the quest for immortality in life continues.

Glad to read around the site you've got here.

#19 garners

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Posted 14 February 2003 - 09:43 PM

[quote]We all know we will die, but some choose to stop that from happening.


Well, I have convinced myself that biological immortality is possible. Right now we are at that time in history when we will be either the last to die of old age or the first to live in youthful, perpetual health.

It will be done through technology. It is just a matter of time before the 'biological immortality pill' will be perfected. Your task then, is to just be there when it happens!!!
Lots of stuff you can do to add the few years to your life neccesary to make it.

As I said in my previous post here, physical immortality is a tougher nut to crack, since it's tough to constanly dodge all the speeding trains and bullets out there. Technology and awareness will eventually solve that problem too. ;)

gene

#20 Luna

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 08:09 PM

We all know we will die, but some choose to stop that from happening.


Well, I have convinced myself that biological immortality is possible. Right now we are at that time in history when we will be either the last to die of old age or the first to live in youthful, perpetual health.

It will be done through technology. It is just a matter of time before the 'biological immortality pill' will be perfected. Your task then, is to just be there when it happens!!!
Lots of stuff you can do to add the few years to your life neccesary to make it.

As I said in my previous post here, physical immortality is a tougher nut to crack, since it's tough to constanly dodge all the speeding trains and bullets out there. Technology and awareness will eventually solve that problem too. ;)

gene


Let's do this :)
Challange fate and win.

#21 mattbrowne

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 05:21 PM

<-from bjklein.com

Just a quick poll to get a feel for the sentiment of the group. Thanks!


"Forever" requires infinity. Is the universe infinite? We are not sure yet. We can extend lives, yes. See my recent post
"Life extension" might be a better term than "immortality".

Matt Browne
My webpage is at http://www.meet-matt-browne.com

"As a race, we survive on planet Earth purely by geological consent." Bill McGuire

#22 srhasdtjhymjxfy

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 03:38 PM

I have to gape at the suggestion that "there are no physical laws that say humans can't live for billions of years". Firstly, humanity needs comparable tolerances of radiation (i.e light and heat), oxygen, gravity, nutrition and water to even exist. These are considered physical prerequisites for life (i.e. laws). If, for example, our sun swelled to a red giant, the heat emitted from it would vaporize the earths rocks, never mind the seas and our bodies!!
Even if some "immortals" managed to flee the dying earth, the spaceships would have to be pretty damn robust to withstand super-velosity meteor impact and the supercool temperatures of intersteller space (and what about the food rations, since the nearest star Proxima Centauri is 4.3 light-years away?). Also gravity plays an important role in bone strength and muscle mass. Take away gravity (as on a spaceship), and you'll have a recipe for disaster.

I don't agree with your statement "people that want to keep their biobodies, simply relpace the broken body parts and freshen up the dna with super nanotech." Personally, I believe humans will evolve into something more "plant-like". I don't mean plant-like as in cabbages -heaven knows there's enough of them already- but rather, we'll evolve to breath in CO2 instead of oxygen (oxygen is as much a killer as it is a life-giver), and convert solar-energy into stored-energy within our own bodies. Consider for a moment how long a tree lives...its plant cells essentially live forever already, without tinkering with its genetic structure. And what better way to keep our planet green, than to turn ourselves green??

Edited by giantnads, 06 January 2008 - 03:39 PM.


#23 bacopa

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 05:22 AM

I think we can live forever, but due to stupid people doing stupid things all throughout history, immortality might not happen within our lifetimes...Think of the wars, religious oppression, disease, and existenial disasters that have plagued humanity throughout the ages. Unfortunetly we elect stupid politicians who would rather go to war and get their thrills thinking they are doing the country a great service by interfering with other countries problems. We could easily be living 500 years by now if the medieval ages never happened. The library of Alexandria, for instance, was burned down thus destroying important documents and books that could have progressed science much earlier than one would think.

#24 Mind

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 01:41 PM

Here is a great video to give you a little optimism. The world is actually a lot less violent than in years past (although there are still hotspots). It seems like world-wide violence might be greater nowadays, but this is mainly due to the global nature of communication. We can see the violence up close like never before. The recent military crackdown in Mynmar or in Pakistan might have been much worse if it were not for international media coverage. Thus, with a more connected world, we should continue to see lower levels of violence.

#25 maestro949

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 12:30 PM

Firstly, humanity needs comparable tolerances of radiation (i.e light and heat), oxygen, gravity, nutrition and water to even exist.


Today we do but humans will evolve away from this such that we're remade from diamond-like polymers and our minds will run within synthetic neural networks that can withstand significant punishment from the environment.

These are considered physical prerequisites for life (i.e. laws). If, for example, our sun swelled to a red giant, the heat emitted from it would vaporize the earths rocks, never mind the seas and our bodies!!


We have 5 billion years to engineer a solution to that problem. I think we can table this and focus on some of the shorter term issues.

Even if some "immortals" managed to flee the dying earth, the spaceships would have to be pretty damn robust to withstand super-velosity meteor impact and the supercool temperatures of intersteller space (and what about the food rations, since the nearest star Proxima Centauri is 4.3 light-years away?). Also gravity plays an important role in bone strength and muscle mass. Take away gravity (as on a spaceship), and you'll have a recipe for disaster.


Future humans with billions of years of advanced technology on the timescales you're speaking will not resemble modern humans in any fashion. Extreme temperatures, gravity, meteor impacts and food will be of little concern to us by then. They are a concern to us because we are a fragile collection of goo-like cells evolved for a very specific environment. That can be remedied.

Personally, I believe humans will evolve into something more "plant-like". I don't mean plant-like as in cabbages -heaven knows there's enough of them already...


Too bad. Eternal life as a cabbage sounds pretty interesting.

#26 vyntager

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 09:14 PM

Forever

Maybe. But there's always a non zero chance for something to screw up, that and an infinite amount of time ... I mean, even if you're an upload running on shielded computronium and you have a googleplex redundant copies of yourself, having cannibalized the entirety of the observable universe into yourself, isn't there still a certain probability for all your protons to spontaneously self-decay at the same time (if you don't believe in proton decay, any other similar misshap will do) ? Not likely ? Everything's likely to happen given enough time.

How long would you need to live until an accident of some sort irrecoverably induces your information-theoretical death ? Can you avoid, protect yourself against any, all of those accidents, or are there some of them you won't ever be able to avoid ? I talked about multiple redundant copies, maybe it could be possible to grow that number of copies faster than the probability buildup to die of an accident ?

Edited by vyntager, 03 March 2008 - 09:15 PM.


#27 brokenportal

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 05:38 PM

Given that our vocabulary of the 2002 era hadnt really evolved yet, (because nobody talked about this stuff in those days, until this place came along,) I take "live forever" to mean live indefinently, so I voted for that. Better to err on the side of optimism I suppose. Time is running out.

#28 immortallight

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 04:52 PM

Such is the nature of human beings,what they seek is in front of them ,yet they do not want to see it because they want to continue to search for the thing that they can never find!

Edited by shepard, 08 September 2008 - 05:38 PM.
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#29 Sir Shagsalot

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 05:38 PM

Hi,

For the best we know the universe in which we exist is not endless in time, so we cannot live forever.

Of course, from the view of our lifepans as biological beings now - even 1,000 years (for arguments sake) is "forever".

I think nanotechnology may eventually lead to techniques that can repair or reshape DNA in vivo, essentially abolishing traditional aging, which is basically primarily down to cell replication errors.

That said, it may also be possible to capture what we call conciousness and "run it" in a mechanical (okay, electronic/light based) computer, which while still not eternity, would allow life extension till the end of the universe, or the lack of energy that can be procured, whichever comes first. Of course, it would also allow you to keep "backups" of self.

The technology on both seems feasible in principle now, but require a quantum leap in tech to make it practical and another to make it widespread.

Okay, back to nootropics for now.

Greez SSAL

Edited by Sir Shagsalot, 14 April 2015 - 05:40 PM.


#30 Antonio2014

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 09:34 AM

For the best we know the universe in which we exist is not endless in time, so we cannot live forever.

 

What? The current most accepted model of the Universe is endless in time.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ambda-CDM_model


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