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What to take for alertness or wakefulness?


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#1 lepiricus

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 07:46 PM


I am wondering what would be the best to stack for energy or alertness and wakefulness. I just feel kind of listless and unmotivated all the time. I am not "depressed" but I have tried effexor and paxil at the request of my Doc. Both these were ineffectual and only gave me the negative side effects.

I recently got my pyritnol from smi2le and I can definately feels something just being on it for 2 days at 400mg/day split into 2 doses. It is like I am just more aware of everything around me and I like that and want even more!! My curent stack is:

Alpha gpc: 225mg /day
Aniracetam: 1300mg / day
Pyritinol: 400mg /day
Vinpocetine: 30 mg /day
Picamilon: 150mg /day

I am thinking the Picamilon might be making me too mellow, I might replace it completely with the Vinpocetine. I really like ephedra back when it was legal. I felt super awake on that stuff, but did not like the anxiety and nervousness it brought.

I am not really looking to boost my smarts or cognition ( already graduated college). I am really interested in having the feeling like I am "with it" and motivation. I am waiting to get sulbutamine from smi2le to try, from what I read this is the stuff that will really get you going. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to try? Perhaps centrophenoxine? ALCAR? deprenyl? (if i can find a good source). Please post suggestions and dosage reccomendations. Thanks. Peace

#2 lepiricus

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 07:54 PM

Ohh, forgot too add my interest in pramiractem. I hear that is getting alot of attention lately and 1fast400 might be carrying it soon. Don't know about smi2le carrying it, but I assume he would not let bulknutrition beat him too the punch. Is it just a more powerful acetem? or does it have different aspects too?

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#3 nootropi

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 08:49 PM

For alterness: modafinil! You can get this cheap at drugs-one.com

#4 lepiricus

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 08:54 PM

I agree, it looks like modafinil is the win. I have also read that prolonged use should be accompanied with liver enzyme tests. Is there anyone on this that takes it regularly that notices any side or long term effects?

#5 nootropi

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 10:22 PM

I agree, it looks like modafinil is the win.  I have also read that prolonged use should be accompanied with liver enzyme tests.  Is there anyone on this that takes it regularly that notices any side or long term effects?


No liver tests necessary for modafinil. That is for adrafinil.

#6 pinballwizard

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 10:30 PM

Here are some leads. I call them leads because the complexity of human brain coupled with how little I know. I am trying to find out these answers myself.

How about modafanil, aka adrafanil, aka provigil? It's not quite an amphetamine like ephedra, so you don't get the unpleasant side-effects. Do some advanced searches. Nootropi likes this prescription.

I used to take ephedra too as a self-medication for lack of motivation. I read on a google search that someone took ephedra for ADD. What I found with ephedra was adaptation to the drug, addiction and then burnout. So, while it was great for a while, it hurt me in the end. Ephedra is still available in chinese herbal shops and is not illegal, you just cannot buy it for weight loss anymore for weightloss. I have a huge bag somewhere. Another problem with stimulants is that caffeine and nicotine and I bet epehdra is not easily combined with some of the nootropics... it is just too much on the brain chemistry. Some noots intensify the stimulants way too much for example. My advice is not to use them or be carefule. I drink tea instead of coffee for example.

http://www.latimes.c...1502sleep.story
http://www.modafinil.../off-label.html

Seems like no one knows how this drug works. Gosh we are pretty ignorant.

Some other drugs (actually herbs) I consider are from the adaptogens. In the Book, "Natural Highs" by Hyla Cass, which (a book which I specifically recommend to you), Cass says the adaptogens actually don't throw your body out of wack like the stimulants (feeling good, downregulation, addiction, burnout) , they help your body find homeostasis.

Adaptogens include the ginsengs (Siberian, Asian, American), ashwaganda, licorice (I dont take cuz it increases cortisol), reishi mushroom, rhodiola.

Other things you might want to consider is green tea.

From Cass's book, the doctor recommends D,L-phenylalanine (its in chocolate), tyrosine and vitamin B5.

The neurotransimitters it seems you need work on is the dopamine and adrenalines.
Posted Image

I am not sure why your doctor had you on Paxal... that increases serotonin, the feel-happy neurotransmitter, when you need the "get off your butt" dopamines and adrenalines.

I am experimenting with the adaptogens right now. I am noticing subtle differences.

consider reducing cortisol and increasing DHEA
In other books I am reading, the authors say people get burned out because their cortisol levels are too high and that is caused by increase stress from lifestyle and things like caffeine, nicotine and stimulants. Cortisol makes you binge on food, it shrinks the hypocampus that is needed for memory imprinting. Some authors suggest testing cortisol levels and DHEA levels. They suggest boosting DHEA who have low levels who are usually older. you see, Cortisol reduces DHEA which is precursor to steroids/hormones. Careful taking DHEA, being related steroids, it can have steroidlike effects. In order to figure out how much DHEA you need, you should get tested for your levels (according to the authors).

What do I know works now?

1. Exercise... it increases energy more than anything else...cardio everything. Do it in the morning.

2. Here is one thing my family takes including myself everyday. My mother swears by it. It is very low glycemic--your insulin levels might be messed up.

http://www.energyfirst.com/ <--on that website take 2 scoops of whey protein from the proenergy whey protein (it gets you off the insulin rollercoaster), a table spoon of the omega oil blend (it increases neuro reception of all neuros), one scoop of the greenergy(it has green tea extract, ginseng Coq10, algae and all sorts of other stuff) and mix it with a cup of frozen fruit. My mother swears by this. You will need a blender. I take at least one everyday. The omega oils might probably can convert some of its stuff to EPA or DHA which should improve your neurol reception...I am thinking about omega-3 fish oils as opposed to flaxseed because it already contains EPA and DHA.)

3. Take a strong multi-vitamin.

4. Sunlight...winter blues even effects me if I am the freaking equator.

5. Adaptogens, but I am still experimenting.

6. Protein heavy diets--Get off the carbs, get in the zone

7. Coffee.

8. My nootropic stack--however, if I change the dosage too much or add alcohol, nicotine or too much caffeine I get some unsettling mood.

Get the book Natural Highs... cross check that book with some of the experts in here which might be able to debunk some of the stuff.

Pinball

#7 lepiricus

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 12:40 AM

Thanks Pinball, That was a very thoughtful response.

I have to check out that book you reccomended. As far as the adaptagens you recommended, I have tried all those at one point in time or another. I reallly liked the way rhodiola felt, but I was only taking 200mg per day. I was buying from GNC at the time and getting ripped off. I noticed many people take rhodiola at 1g or higher per day and I have not read any side effects associated with it whatsover.

The cortisol connection you refer too might be dead-on in my case. At one time 3 years ago I came down with panic disorder. The doc put me on a script for paxil for 3 mos before I finally kicked it. From what I have read about "panic attacks" it is a fight or flight response that is initiated by a spike in cortisol levels. Cortisol is the trigger for the panic reaction and when these cortisol levels are not reduced effectively one becomes prone to more panic attacs, general anxiety disorder, weight gain/lose, and lethargy, just to name a few. It seems cortisol is very undesireable, but necesary for normal biological activity. I am very curious about my own cortisol levels. I have seen saliva tests available over the web that are supposed to be able to detect cortisol levels, but I am skeptical on how accurate these will be. I must definately look into reducing cortisol and think high dosages > 1gram/day of rhodiola would be a good first step. Rhodiola looks like it is include with many cortisol reducing supps, but at low dosages, about 300-400 mg a day. Theanine might be worth a look too.

From your box flow chart it looks like DL phenylalinine is a pre-cursor. I am taking 1 gram/day of chocamine. This provides DL-phenylalinine as well as many other activeschocamine info

I have tried to supplement DHEA, but I think that is not the way to go. I read that if you supplement DHEA when you dont have too your body will raise cortisol levels to bring DHEA down. This may be counter productive in some cases.

Your sunlight recommendation is spot on too. I love sun, and tanning. It makes me feel better and also kills my acne as well. I will continue to explore this and let you guys know what I find. Thanks for your help Pinball and nootropi. Peace

#8 pinballwizard

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 04:18 AM

Thanks Pinball, That was a very thoughtful response.

I have to check out that book you reccomended.  As far as the adaptagens you recommended, I have tried all those at one point in time or another.  I reallly liked the way rhodiola felt, but I was only taking 200mg per day.  I was buying from GNC at the time and getting ripped off.  I noticed many people take rhodiola at 1g or higher per day and I have not read any side effects associated with it whatsover.


What about http://www.beyond-a-century.com/?

The cortisol connection you refer too might be dead-on in my case.  At one time 3 years ago I came down with panic disorder.  The doc put me on a script for paxil for 3 mos before I finally kicked it.  From what I have read about "panic attacks" it is a fight or flight response that is initiated by a spike in cortisol levels.  Cortisol is the trigger for the panic reaction and when these cortisol levels are not reduced effectively one becomes prone to more panic attacs, general anxiety disorder, weight gain/lose, and lethargy, just to name a few.  It seems cortisol is very undesireable, but necesary for normal biological activity.  I am very curious about my own cortisol levels.  I have seen saliva tests available over the web that are supposed to be able to detect cortisol levels, but I am skeptical on how accurate these will be.  I must definately look into reducing cortisol and think high dosages > 1gram/day of rhodiola would be a good first step.  Rhodiola looks like it is include with many cortisol reducing supps, but at low dosages, about 300-400 mg a day.  Theanine might be worth a look too.


Well, my girl-friend has anxiety disorder and has had panic attacks. http://www.stresscen...om/cts/21347898 If your anxiety is so bad it is scary then I suggest the link... It took her a long time to get rid of obsessiveness and anxiety. It was really serious. I think it is great what that link provides and it has a free trial. She said that it is much cheaper than a psychologist/psychiatrist where you get one hour a week. This is more intense and thorough.

I have to remark on how bad Cafeine and Ephedra are for panic attacks. You should not take them, in my novice opinion. Perhaps the ephedra even sparked the panic attacks in the first place.

From your box flow chart it looks like DL phenylalinine is a pre-cursor.  I am taking 1 gram/day of chocamine.  This provides DL-phenylalinine as well as many other activeschocamine info


I don't have any opinions about DLPA yet. Probably because I take a lot of stuff...its new in my regimen. It is too hard to give an opinion. DLPA is supposed to be taken on an empty stomach in the morning.

I have tried to supplement DHEA, but I think that is not the way to go.  I read that if you supplement DHEA when you dont have too your body will raise cortisol levels to bring DHEA down.  This may be counter productive in some cases.


Hmmm... that is what the saliva tests are for. Pretty expensive though.

Hey check out this site I found on DHEA. http://www.quackwatc...opics/dhea.html It is always good to get an contrary opinion. This quackwatch.org is a great all around site for that. Based upon all the warnings I have, you need to be older and watch your DHEA levels closely. Based upon my age (30) I would have to have some relatively pretty darn low DHEA levels.

sidenote
www.quackwatch.org is a great site. Everyone should check it out.

Pinball

#9 scottl

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 04:25 AM

www.quackwatch.org is a great site. Everyone should check it out.

The very name of the site should give you a clue this guy has a humongous axe to grind. By all means be critical and skeptical, but I can imagine what he would say about nootropics....

#10 lepiricus

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 05:19 AM

It is funny how you remark on using caffiene and ephedra. I was indeed taking insane amounts of both of these when I was struck with my 1st panic attack. I was just starting my 2nd semester of my Junior year of my chemical engineering degree. I used these as a crutch becuase of my intense need for studying and getting homework and laboratories in. I was taking a full days dose of "ripped fuel" and washing it down with a coke for breakfast while not eating lunch and sometimes skipping dinner. I had done this about 2 straight weeks when I got my 1st panic attack. I went to see a doc immediately because I thought I had a heart attack or was going crazy. He diagnosed me with panic disorder after many tests that came up negative, except for an ulcer which I had somehow gotten too. Yay Ephedra [ang]
I have since kicked my panic attacks, but still have occasional anxiety issues, but its very tolerable compared to a couple of years ago when I was having full blown attacks.

I appreciate the links too. Beyond a Century looks like they have alot to offer and good prices. I noticed they had Relora powder at a decent price and that is a reputed killer of cortisol
Relora

I am thinking I still might try Rhodiola 1st becuase of its proven adaptagen and mood stabilizing properties. These alone should reduce high cortisol levels over time. I have also read that Rhodiola should be cycled so it does not lose its effect with daily use. Have you notice this phenomenon in your experiences?

Anything that would help me kick this "blah" attitude would be fantastic. Modafinil looks very inticing, but I would rather get a script for it becuase me insurance is fantastic. I just dont know how to bring it up w/ my family practioner. He has put me on paxil and effexor at different times but both these did absolutely nothing for me (besides side effects) and I really dont like the withdrawl associated with SSRI's. Thanks again for your help. Peace

#11 pinballwizard

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 05:24 AM

www.quackwatch.org is a great site. Everyone should check it out.

The very name of the site should give you a clue this guy has a humongous axe to grind.  By all means be critical and skeptical, but I can imagine what he would say about nootropics....


Well, thinking critically with supplements is often difficult. People want solutions to problems so badly. There are a lot of slimy people out there to take advantage of that clouded judgment. I think this is totally worthy of discussion. Scott you are doctor, I am all ears. Why does he have an axe to grind?

While we are at it, Here is another axe to grind regarding noots and DHEA.

For the record, I have not made up my opinion of DHEA. I am actually considering it. My weightlifitng buddy says, "two things bro, you can take supplements, but no hormones and no stimulants...It is a rule I have always lived by".

More links
http://www.quackwatc...pics/signs.html
http://www.quackwatc...pics/avoid.html

Causing drama,

Pinball

#12 scottl

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 11:32 AM

Pinball,

e.g.

"The discoverer says that a powerful establishment is trying to suppress his or her work."

Do you know what homocysteine is? (if not google it). The medical establishment tried to supress it and the guy putting it forward lost all his grant funding. Why? Because it did not fit the cholesterol model. Same with H. pylori which is now known to cause ulcers. A famous physicist(?) once commented something to the effect that you will never convince established scientists of anything new. The way new discoveries are accepted, is that the older generation of scientists die out and the new generation grow up accepting it as true.

"Why does he have an axe to grind?"

I think you would need a psychoanalyst to answer that one.

DHEA? If you are under 40 and healthy I would not bother. It is controversial, and should not be taken without monitoring of your hormone levels (see LEF.org).

Edited by scottl, 08 November 2004 - 11:48 AM.


#13 faust

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 04:17 PM

I feel very, very, very, very, very, very anxious, depressive, lack of motivation and paranoia with Modafinil.

The first time, is very cool. But after, the days afters, I feel very bad (end of the world)

#14 geigertube

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 02:26 AM

For alterness: modafinil!  You can get this cheap at drugs-one.com



Nootropi,

Is Modafinil really worth the extra cost? The website says it doesnt outperform caffeine for performance
during sleep deprivation.

http://www.modafinil...fvcaffeine.html

Also, Hi. First post, been enjoying/learning from this forum for a week or so now. Trying to get a good stack built up. ;)


Steven

#15 nootropi

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 12:14 PM

For alterness: modafinil!  You can get this cheap at drugs-one.com



Nootropi,

Is Modafinil really worth the extra cost? The website says it doesnt outperform caffeine for performance
during sleep deprivation.

http://www.modafinil...fvcaffeine.html

Also, Hi. First post, been enjoying/learning from this forum for a week or so now. Trying to get a good stack built up. ;)


Steven


Steve: that study you cited I strongly disagree with. Try 200 mg modafinil on an empty stomach and then tell me you agree with the findings of that review.

#16 geigertube

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 03:44 PM

Steve: that study you cited I strongly disagree with.  Try 200 mg modafinil on an empty stomach and then tell me you agree with the findings of that review.




I can't counter a study with an antecote. ;)

But I might give it a whirl at some point.

Thanks!

Steven

#17 jolly

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 12:14 AM

Anyone else have any information on modafinil and depression? Ive been taking it for a few months now, and have been fairly down - but I attributed those to outside causes rather than modafinil. Anyone have any more information?

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#18 icarusfalling

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 11:01 AM

well since no one has brought this up i might as well. the drug is ussually used for narcolepsy. They do not get naturally enough of something and modafinil replenishes this. studys done on normal people have shown to stay up all night if taken late at night... this literly replenishes whatever chemical it is that causes you to feel refreshed in the morning(you hardcore nootropys can look that up). In the morning, after you have awaken fully if you are not able to concentrate and you do not feel alert modafinil probably won't work for you as other factors are in play. If you do feel great and can think clearly when you wake up then modafinil will work GREAT. I believe the military is studying this for pilots and such to keep alert and awake during long hours of combat. I've also read a long artical a guy made that did a 1 week test run on it. Apparently he felt alert, got more done, felt great. It is something that i will definitely try out if i want to pull an all nighter some time (say an event that is once in a life time deal so i can stay alert and awake all night).

Besides that for alertness i work out a lot and after awhile your body just adjusts and gives you that much more energy. After you workout you feel like you can just go and go all day and you also get this relaxed calm which is very good. Because of this i think exercise is the best way for energy and diet. I believe that where nootropics may shine are the cognitive and memory areas of the brain along with getting rid of free radicals and other such things. When you combine these with learning skills you will increase your abilitys time and time again. Besides that there is probably other things you can do to make yourself feel great than just poping a bunch of pills.




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