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Hibernation versus cryonics


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#1 Luke Parrish

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:53 AM


The prospect of being deep-cooled after legal death and later reanimated by speculative technology is what is technically called cryonics. It is a frightening prospect, in fact it is sometimes called the second worst thing that could happen to you -- after death.

Hibernation is something we see in animals, where the metabolic rate is lowered (depressed) for a long period of time. According to this abstract, it also slows the aging process in hamsters.

If we could induce long-term hypothermia (hibernation) in humans it could be a huge leap in anti-aging medicine in my opinion. It wouldn't be the same thing as reversible cryonics, but a very important breakthrough against aging from the realm of depressed metabolism. Furthermore, as science in cryonics advances and science in human hibernation advances, the two kinds of knowledge could easily be complementary and overlap considerably.

However we should bear in mind that these are separate technologies with different optimal strategies. Cryonics works by using cryoprotectants -- vitrifying tissues (preventing, or at least reducing, ice formation) so that they can be lowered to low sub-zero temperatures of -135C and below. Hibernation works by the principle of ensuring that metabolism can be wound down a considerable degree, without necessarily stopping. Even though a hibernating animal has a reduced body temperature, it keeps itself well above freezing.

In my cryonics advocacy I see people confusing these two approaches frequently, and coming to false conclusions as a result. They may think that cryonics companies are promising they will get to LN2 temperatures in a hibernation-like pristine state, or they may not realize how important of an advance vitrification is because it's not relevant to hibernation. Cryonics relies heavily on the idea of being able to fix damage in the future. Yes it is a reasonable expectation that we can someday do this, but it is a large and significant expectation that many people do not quite seem to realize exists. Often they are so shocked to find it exists that they become antagonistic towards cryonics.

Lately I have been wondering if part of the reason for hostility is that they see the two approaches in competition, and cryonics is getting all the attention. Could it be jealousy of a sort? Perhaps we should pay more attention to long-term human hibernation as a form of aging prevention in its own right -- and spend more time talking about it as a legitimate strategy, even if it is not quite here yet. There is a common enemy that both can be used against, and that is Death.

Is long-term human hibernation a nearer term goal than reversible cryonic suspension by vitrification at -135C? I don't know for sure, but as an activist I have to consider the fact that the existing medical community seems more likely to take it seriously in the near term -- NASA is even interested in it as a method of keeping astronauts alive for long voyages. And it is an incremental advance on hypothermic medical procedures used surgically today. It is the sort of thing reasonable people would have no problem using on living patients, provided it proves to be safe.

Despite the fact that whole-brain vitrification is my highest priority, I'm seriously considering whether the idea of whole-animal long-term hibernation is an idea that will attract more attention, funding, and ultimately more practical short-term results. Anyone have any thoughts on this topic? (Note: I'm a layman on both topics, so apologies in advance if I made any mistakes in terminology or technical details.)

Edited by Luke Parrish, 06 December 2010 - 04:57 AM.

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#2 nanothan

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 02:45 AM

Since there isn't a forum for human hibernation, I thought this would be the most appropriate place to discuss human hibernation and collect links.

some questions to answer:
1. What are the current problems with inducing human hibernation?
2. How long could human hibernation extend lifespan?
3. Does the hibernation state have risks?
4. What is the state-of-the-art research in the subject?
5. Would the progression of diseases such as cancer be slowed with hibernation?

#3 Elus

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 03:44 AM

Since there isn't a forum for human hibernation, I thought this would be the most appropriate place to discuss human hibernation and collect links.

some questions to answer:
1. What are the current problems with inducing human hibernation?
2. How long could human hibernation extend lifespan?
3. Does the hibernation state have risks?
4. What is the state-of-the-art research in the subject?
5. Would the progression of diseases such as cancer be slowed with hibernation?


This video may be relevant to the thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVAaZVz9pDs


#4 JLL

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 09:19 AM


The Curious Case of Human Hibernation


#5 nanothan

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:21 PM

See I don't understand this, human hibernation is extremely promising and exciting, yet it is hard to find real research on it potential use for anti-aging. I think I might be using the wrong search terms, there has got to be research out there.

Specifically, the most important thing that needs to be found out is what exactly hibernation on a molecular level, and how much life extension this will lead to in theory.

As well as research on using hibernation to extend life in animals, (the only thing I have found so far was about using hibernation to extend some worms lifespan by 70%), which I don't know if it is really worth it, but if like 500% life extension could be achieved, that would be amazing, and definitely worth it.

I came across a lot more interesting hits when searching for "hibernation organ preservation".


http://archives.drug...Ibernation.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15551654
http://ats.ctsnetjou...tract/61/5/1488
http://jtcs.ctsnetjo...tract/102/2/224 (from 1991)

A new autoperfusion multiorgan preparation was studied in which the heart and lungs were removed with the liver, pancreas, duodenum, and both kidneys en bloc while being perfused by the heart and oxygenated by the lungs. A respirator with 50% oxygen was used for ventilation. Fresh blood, glucose, electrolytes, mannitol, and antibiotics were given through the portal vein. Fifteen mongrel dogs were used. In the study group (seven dogs), 10 ml of plasma containing hibernation induction trigger, obtained from deeply hibernating woodchucks, was given intravenously 2 hours before the operation, and 4 ml was given every 4 hours during the preservation period. In the control group (eight dogs), no hibernation induction trigger was used. Survival time in the study group ranged from 33 to 56 hours (mean 43.4 +/- 4.1 hours), longer than that of the control group, which was 9 to 31 hours (mean 16.2 +/- 2.6 hours, p less than 0.001). In the study group aortic systolic pressure ranged from 64 +/- 5 to 92 +/- 7 mm Hg, arterial oxygen tension from 180 +/- 35 to 285 +/- 66 mm Hg. Urine output ranged from 15 to 70 ml/hour. Blood urea nitrogen declined from 15.6 +/- 2.5 to 6.6 +/- 1.3 mg/dl (p less than 0.01); creatinine declined from 0.8 +/- 0.03 to 0.3 +/- 0.01 mg/dl (p less than 0.01). Severe liver congestion and premature renal failure occurred in the control group but did not occur in the study group. In the study group one lung was transplanted after 33 hours of preservation with simultaneous contralateral pulmonary artery ligation. Good lung function was maintained after transplantation. Although the exact mechanism by which hibernation induction trigger extends tissue survival time is still not clear, its effect on organ preservation is profound. This study also produced one of the longest average survival times for organ preservation.


COME ON, DO MORE RESEARCH!

#6 nanothan

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:47 AM

As you can probably tell from my other thread, I am in support of human hibernation.

There are several reasons why I think it is a superior approach to achieving the same aim as cryonics:

1. It is far more close, in terms of technology. Scientists have sent animals which don't normally hibernate into hibernation states. Scientists have even sent single organs into hibernation states.

2. It is far more close in terms of practicality. There are no animals which can naturally survive -196 C. There are lots of animals which are quite similar to humans which do hibernation on a regular basis, and genes required for hibernation have been found in humans. We know it can be done, its just a matter of perfecting it to maximize life-extension.

3. There appears to be far more interest from the mainstream academic community in hibernation.

4. We simply don't need preservation for 1 million years. We only need to make it 100 years or so until SENS-style technologies exist. Lets say hibernation technologies can slow aging processes to 20% of normal. That means that if someone was put in the hibernation state at age 30 in the year 2020, and then woken in the year 2100, they would only be the equivalent of 46 years old, vs 110 years old otherwise.

5. Since life is still going when in hibernation, treatments can be applied during hibernation. The cardiovascular system is still working, so life-extending drugs, vitamins, optimal nutrition, ect, can be sent directly into the blood-stream.

6. It avoids the philosophical issues that would come with what is essentially death for all practical purposes. If someone has had their cells filled with glycerol and been vitrified at -196 C for 1000 years and then is "repaired" with nanotechnology, are they the same consciousness that they were before, or are they just a somewhat similar replica of the person they were before? Did the consciousness that they once had die when their cells stopped? These types of questions lead to other philosophical questions, questions that we do not know the answers to today, because we don't understand physics and consciousness.

Edited by nanothan, 14 December 2010 - 12:48 AM.


#7 benbest

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 06:46 AM

Despite the fact that whole-brain vitrification is my highest priority, I'm seriously considering whether the idea of whole-animal long-term hibernation is an idea that will attract more attention, funding, and ultimately more practical short-term results. Anyone have any thoughts on this topic? (Note: I'm a layman on both topics, so apologies in advance if I made any mistakes in terminology or technical details.)


There is a section in my webpage "Cryopreservation as a means of
Suspended Animation" that deals specifically with hibernation.
Here is the link, Luke, in case you haven't seen it already:

http://www.benbest.c....html#hibernate

-- Ben Best

#8 xlifex

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 06:35 PM

Despite the fact that whole-brain vitrification is my highest priority, I'm seriously considering whether the idea of whole-animal long-term hibernation is an idea that will attract more attention, funding, and ultimately more practical short-term results. Anyone have any thoughts on this topic? (Note: I'm a layman on both topics, so apologies in advance if I made any mistakes in terminology or technical details.)


There is a section in my webpage "Cryopreservation as a means of
Suspended Animation" that deals specifically with hibernation.
Here is the link, Luke, in case you haven't seen it already:

http://www.benbest.c....html#hibernate

-- Ben Best


There is an extensive discussion of the topic here, too:

http://www.depressed...sed-metabolism/

#9 mikeb80

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 11:20 AM

I post in this old thread, because what I am about to write is very related.

Suspended animation isn’t science fiction anymore... even if at the moment we can keep a patient in this state just for a relatively short time.
Since 2010 Dr. John Elefteriades at Yale University New Haven Hospital has successfully used hypothermia for hearth transplants.
http://singularityhu...-massachusetts/

The patient is suspended ("dead" using the traditional definition) for 35 / 40 minutes.
Dr. Hasan Alam of Harvard Medical School is planning to extend this time (60 to 190 minutes) cooling patients as low as 50°F (10°C),

Another pioneer in this field is Dr. Peter Rhee, chief of Tucson, Arizona’s trauma center.
The Food and Drug Administration has already approved (2011) his technique for human trials, and he has secured funding from the Army to conduct the feasibility phase.

http://singularityhu...linical-trials/

Edited by mikeb80, 25 August 2012 - 11:21 AM.





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