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do vegetarians look younger and why


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#31 Skötkonung

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 02:42 AM

Ha ha, have you seen any of those older paleo guys lately? They are lookin pretty damn good for their age.


I haven't seen too many examples of this, unless you're talking about bodily appearance. The OP is talking about facial appearance I do believe.

As the issue currently stands, there is no definitive evidence proving vegetarians look younger than omnivores. We can only rely on subjective observation that hasn't undergone any kind of meaningful data correction. If you could hypothetically quantify youthful appearance, the data would need to be corrected for smoking / drinking habits, lifetime UV exposure, genetics, facial products used, facial expressions, and level of affluence.. not to mention, you'd need to account for things other than just meat intake like glycemic index / load, total protein intake, total carbohydrate, total fat, wheat or no wheat, soy or no soy, etc. Such a study would be very difficult to conduct.

My pointing is that simply picking a handful of paleo bloggers and a handful of vegetarian celebrities and making comparisons about their respective diets based on their appearance is totally worthless for drawing meaningful conclusions. So what if Vin Diesel looks older than David Duchovny, there are so many confounding factors involved that we will never know if the variance can be primarily attributed to diet.

Okay... now that I've made that disclaimer...

If we are just playing hypothetical, I would argue that there is no reason why a Paleo type diet would make someone look younger than any other healthy person. A paelo diet is neutral. Consider that in many indigenous pre-western cultures, age is attributed to superiority (rank) within a group. According to a book I recently finished on the Mek culture (hunter-gatherers) of West Papua, Elders are allowed to work less, lead more, and procreate more. Then there is the current hypothesis that male pattern baldness was selected for in early human history as a way of distinguishing age, or superiority, within a group. Male pattern baldness also seems to be rare in hunter-gatherer cultures (see below link) which indicates their androgen hormones are not elevated (see below discussion on mechanism). My point here is that there isn't much evidence that a meat based, paleolithic diet will keep a person looking young. On the contrary, in paleolithic times, looking older (in the face?) might have been adventageous. At any rate, I don't think people living on the fringe of exitense were at all concerned with preserving a youthful appearance. In fact, I can't image that they even saw their own face very often... Vanity as it exists today was probably completely alien to paleolithic peoples.

As for whether meat is inherently pro-DHT... I would argue that 1.) DHT is not bad within normal parameters. 2.) SHBG probably has more to do with balding and physical aging that DHT, and 3.) unpolluted meat consumed in moderation has never been shown to increase SHBG.

SHBG (or sex hormone binding globulin) is responsible for binding testosterone and preventing its bioavailability and conversion to DHT. It is typically lower in individuals with high DHT. SHBG is also downregulated by insulin. The insulinogenic properties of a diet seem to correlate the most with large changes in SHBG (although proportion of fat, protein, and carbohydrate also play a role).

Since meat is not insulinogenic, there is no reason why it would increase DHT if consumed in reasonable amounts. On the contrary, a vegetarian diet that is low in fat might restrict DHT by not allowing adequate fat for production of the sex hormones. Furthermore, a diet high in isoflavones seems to supress DHT. In my opinion, meat is at best a great suppressor of excess SHBG. At worst it is netural.

Consider the following studies:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3573976
Testosterone concentrations in seven normal men were consistently higher after ten days on a high carbohydrate diet (468 ± 34 ng/dl, mean ± S.E.) than during a high protein diet (3.71 ± 23 ng/d1, p<0.05) and were accompanied by parallel changes in sex hormone binding globulin (32.5 ± 2.8 nmol/1 vs. 23.4 ± 1.6 nmol/1 respectively, p<0.01).

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10424753
Vegetarians and vegans had lower mean body mass indices (BMI) and lower plasma cholesterol concentrations than meat-eaters, but there were no statistically significant differences between meat-eaters, vegetarians and vegans in pre- or post-menopausal plasma concentrations of oestradiol or SHBG.

But when you replace meat with soy, it favorable changes the sex hormones as opposed to their 'normal' counterparts:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11103227
SHBG was 3% higher (P = 0.07), whereas the FAI was 7% lower (P = 0.06), after the tofu diet compared with the meat diet.

But the difference in SHBG seems to be small (not statistically significant), and the major area of influence seems to be on levels on the other androgen hormones via isoflavones. This corroborates nicely with data on male pattern baldness in Japan. After the introduction of Western goods, baldness increased substantially despite meat intake remaining relatively the same.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14527633
Compensatory hyperinsulinemia stemming from peripheral insulin resistance is a well-recognized metabolic disturbance that is at the root cause of diseases and maladies of Syndrome X (hypertension, type 2 diabetes, dyslipidemia, coronary artery disease, obesity, abnormal glucose tolerance). Abnormalities of fibrinolysis and hyperuricemia also appear to be members of the cluster of illnesses comprising Syndrome X. Insulin is a well-established growth-promoting hormone, and recent evidence indicates that hyperinsulinemia causes a shift in a number of endocrine pathways that may favor unregulated tissue growth leading to additional illnesses. Specifically, hyperinsulinemia elevates serum concentrations of free insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) and androgens, while simultaneously reducing insulin-like growth factor-binding protein 3 (IGFBP-3) and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). Since IGFBP-3 is a ligand for the nuclear retinoid X receptor alpha, insulin-mediated reductions in IGFBP-3 may also influence transcription of anti-proliferative genes normally activated by the body's endogenous retinoids. These endocrine shifts alter cellular proliferation and growth in a variety of tissues, the clinical course of which may promote acne, early menarche, certain epithelial cell carcinomas, increased stature, myopia, cutaneous papillomas (skin tags), acanthosis nigricans, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) and male vertex balding. Consequently, these illnesses and conditions may, in part, have hyperinsulinemia at their root cause and therefore should be classified among the diseases of Syndrome X.

So... I guess what I'm saying is that meat isn't bad, isoflavones skew things benefically (at least where appearence is concerned), superficial observations are worthless, and insulin sensitivity is what the immortalist should be concerned about.

Edited by Skötkonung, 19 December 2010 - 02:48 AM.


#32 TheFountain

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 09:24 AM

Ha ha, have you seen any of those older paleo guys lately? They are lookin pretty damn good for their age.


I haven't seen too many examples of this, unless you're talking about bodily appearance. The OP is talking about facial appearance I do believe.

As the issue currently stands, there is no definitive evidence proving vegetarians look younger than omnivores. We can only rely on subjective observation that hasn't undergone any kind of meaningful data correction. If you could hypothetically quantify youthful appearance, the data would need to be corrected for smoking / drinking habits, lifetime UV exposure, genetics, facial products used, facial expressions, and level of affluence.. not to mention, you'd need to account for things other than just meat intake like glycemic index / load, total protein intake, total carbohydrate, total fat, wheat or no wheat, soy or no soy, etc. Such a study would be very difficult to conduct.

My pointing is that simply picking a handful of paleo bloggers and a handful of vegetarian celebrities and making comparisons about their respective diets based on their appearance is totally worthless for drawing meaningful conclusions. So what if Vin Diesel looks older than David Duchovny, there are so many confounding factors involved that we will never know if the variance can be primarily attributed to diet.

Okay... now that I've made that disclaimer...

If we are just playing hypothetical, I would argue that there is no reason why a Paleo type diet would make someone look younger than any other healthy person. A paelo diet is neutral. Consider that in many indigenous pre-western cultures, age is attributed to superiority (rank) within a group. According to a book I recently finished on the Mek culture (hunter-gatherers) of West Papua, Elders are allowed to work less, lead more, and procreate more. Then there is the current hypothesis that male pattern baldness was selected for in early human history as a way of distinguishing age, or superiority, within a group. Male pattern baldness also seems to be rare in hunter-gatherer cultures (see below link) which indicates their androgen hormones are not elevated (see below discussion on mechanism). My point here is that there isn't much evidence that a meat based, paleolithic diet will keep a person looking young. On the contrary, in paleolithic times, looking older (in the face?) might have been adventageous. At any rate, I don't think people living on the fringe of exitense were at all concerned with preserving a youthful appearance. In fact, I can't image that they even saw their own face very often... Vanity as it exists today was probably completely alien to paleolithic peoples.

As for whether meat is inherently pro-DHT... I would argue that 1.) DHT is not bad within normal parameters. 2.) SHBG probably has more to do with balding and physical aging that DHT, and 3.) unpolluted meat consumed in moderation has never been shown to increase SHBG.

SHBG (or sex hormone binding globulin) is responsible for binding testosterone and preventing its bioavailability and conversion to DHT. It is typically lower in individuals with high DHT. SHBG is also downregulated by insulin. The insulinogenic properties of a diet seem to correlate the most with large changes in SHBG (although proportion of fat, protein, and carbohydrate also play a role).

Since meat is not insulinogenic, there is no reason why it would increase DHT if consumed in reasonable amounts. On the contrary, a vegetarian diet that is low in fat might restrict DHT by not allowing adequate fat for production of the sex hormones. Furthermore, a diet high in isoflavones seems to supress DHT. In my opinion, meat is at best a great suppressor of excess SHBG. At worst it is netural.

Consider the following studies:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3573976
Testosterone concentrations in seven normal men were consistently higher after ten days on a high carbohydrate diet (468 ± 34 ng/dl, mean ± S.E.) than during a high protein diet (3.71 ± 23 ng/d1, p<0.05) and were accompanied by parallel changes in sex hormone binding globulin (32.5 ± 2.8 nmol/1 vs. 23.4 ± 1.6 nmol/1 respectively, p<0.01).

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10424753
Vegetarians and vegans had lower mean body mass indices (BMI) and lower plasma cholesterol concentrations than meat-eaters, but there were no statistically significant differences between meat-eaters, vegetarians and vegans in pre- or post-menopausal plasma concentrations of oestradiol or SHBG.

But when you replace meat with soy, it favorable changes the sex hormones as opposed to their 'normal' counterparts:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11103227
SHBG was 3% higher (P = 0.07), whereas the FAI was 7% lower (P = 0.06), after the tofu diet compared with the meat diet.

But the difference in SHBG seems to be small (not statistically significant), and the major area of influence seems to be on levels on the other androgen hormones via isoflavones. This corroborates nicely with data on male pattern baldness in Japan. After the introduction of Western goods, baldness increased substantially despite meat intake remaining relatively the same.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14527633
Compensatory hyperinsulinemia stemming from peripheral insulin resistance is a well-recognized metabolic disturbance that is at the root cause of diseases and maladies of Syndrome X (hypertension, type 2 diabetes, dyslipidemia, coronary artery disease, obesity, abnormal glucose tolerance). Abnormalities of fibrinolysis and hyperuricemia also appear to be members of the cluster of illnesses comprising Syndrome X. Insulin is a well-established growth-promoting hormone, and recent evidence indicates that hyperinsulinemia causes a shift in a number of endocrine pathways that may favor unregulated tissue growth leading to additional illnesses. Specifically, hyperinsulinemia elevates serum concentrations of free insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) and androgens, while simultaneously reducing insulin-like growth factor-binding protein 3 (IGFBP-3) and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). Since IGFBP-3 is a ligand for the nuclear retinoid X receptor alpha, insulin-mediated reductions in IGFBP-3 may also influence transcription of anti-proliferative genes normally activated by the body's endogenous retinoids. These endocrine shifts alter cellular proliferation and growth in a variety of tissues, the clinical course of which may promote acne, early menarche, certain epithelial cell carcinomas, increased stature, myopia, cutaneous papillomas (skin tags), acanthosis nigricans, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) and male vertex balding. Consequently, these illnesses and conditions may, in part, have hyperinsulinemia at their root cause and therefore should be classified among the diseases of Syndrome X.

So... I guess what I'm saying is that meat isn't bad, isoflavones skew things benefically (at least where appearence is concerned), superficial observations are worthless, and insulin sensitivity is what the immortalist should be concerned about.


Is it possible that SHBG is indirectly responsible for raised DHT through the presence of elevated IGF-1 decreasing its levels and raising testosterone/DHT? And if so, doesn't the fact that vegan diets have been shown to lower IGF-1 have a bearing on this outcome?

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#33 Skötkonung

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 06:10 AM

Is it possible that SHBG is indirectly responsible for raised DHT through the presence of elevated IGF-1 decreasing its levels and raising testosterone/DHT? And if so, doesn't the fact that vegan diets have been shown to lower IGF-1 have a bearing on this outcome?

That's an interesting supposition. Check out this study:

http://joe.endocrino...stract/124/2/R1
It is concluded that IGF-I is an additional regulator of SHBG secretion by these cells and that it may be involved in regulating SHBG secretion in vivo in response to dietary factors.


But that's only in a lab, not in actual humans. The two do seem to be connected though, just as insulin is also connected to SHBG. This study in humans looks at hormones and response to diet but doesn't seem to indict meat intake:
http://www.worldhair...arch.com/?p=162
The whole study is available to read if you're curious.

Everything I've read seems to indicate that meat doesn't increase IGF1, but a vegetarian diet seems to lower it slightly. This difference might be due to the quantity and quality of protein or other dietary factors, not source. Even though vegetarians might take in a comparable amount of protein as omnivores, the lower quality might be enough to lower IGF1. So if you're a vegetarian trying to go anti-aging, the benefit might be in excluding all protein isolates and eggs / dairy / fish.

At any rate, I haven't seen any evidence indicating that the exclusion of meat changes SHBG. In the studies above comparing vegetarians to omnivores, they found no statistical difference in SHBG, which seems to indicate that any changes in IGF1 weren't affecting that particular hormone.

What I'm curious about is the following (maybe someone can post some studies about this):
1. Do isoflavones lower IGF1? 2. Do lacto-ovo vegetarians have higher IGF1 than vegans? 3. How much does protein content in the diet affect SHBG and IGF1? And 4. How much does IGF1 have to change to influence SHBG?

#34 JLL

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 11:23 AM

1. Do isoflavones lower IGF1?


Maybe it's tissue-specific, but isoflavones increase IGF-1 in the skin.

As for serum levels:

Relationship of dietary protein and soy isoflavones to serum IGF-1 and IGF binding proteins in the Prostate Cancer Lifestyle Trial.

High levels of insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) are associated with increased risk of prostate cancer, whereas increased levels of some of its binding proteins (IGFBPs) seem to be protective. High intakes of dietary protein, especially animal and soy protein, appear to increase IGF-1. However, soy isoflavones have demonstrated anti-proliferative and apoptotic effects both in vitro and in vivo. We evaluated dietary intakes of total protein and soy isoflavones in relation to the IGF axis in prostate cancer patients making comprehensive lifestyle changes including a very low-fat vegan diet supplemented with soy protein (58 g/day). After one year, intervention group patients reported significantly higher intakes of dietary protein and soy isoflavones compared to usual-care controls (P < 0.001). IGF-1 increased significantly in both groups, whereas IGFBP-1 rose in the experimental group only (P < 0.01). Increases in vegetable protein over one year were associated with increases in IGFBP-1 among intervention group patients (P < 0.05). These results suggest that dietary protein and soy isoflavones, in the context of comprehensive lifestyle changes, may not significantly alter IGF-1. However, given the recent literature indicating that high intake of protein rich in essential amino acids (animal or soy protein) may increase IGF-1, it may be prudent for men with early stage prostate cancer not to exceed dietary protein recommendations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17571965



#35 JLL

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 11:24 AM

"Everything I've read seems to indicate that meat doesn't increase IGF1, but a vegetarian diet seems to lower it slightly. This difference might be due to the quantity and quality of protein or other dietary factors, not source. Even though vegetarians might take in a comparable amount of protein as omnivores, the lower quality might be enough to lower IGF1. So if you're a vegetarian trying to go anti-aging, the benefit might be in excluding all protein isolates and eggs / dairy / fish. "

I think you're right. There's nothing magical about vegetarian protein that would lower IGF-1 and nothing magical about meat that would increase IGF-1 -- it's the overall amount of complete protein that is key.

#36 InquilineKea

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 11:15 PM

I'm not sure if IGF-1 is even the thing we should be looking for. Calorie restriction does decrease IGF-1 temporarily. But when a person has been on it for decades, then their intrinsic ability to produce IGF-1 won't go down, so then they tend to have higher IGF-1 levels at later ages (I have some research to support this - but I'm in a hurry right now).

I think it all ties down with the results from the British vegetarian study showing that vegetarians live longer than non-vegetarians, but that once you *control* for health-conscious people, then there is no practical effect. Vegetarians simply tend to be more careful about their diet. Also, there is a correlation between vegetarianism and IQ since smarter people are more likely to choose vegetarianism as an option (just as they are more likely to choose non-default options for everything). And if anything, I've noticed that people in "more-educated" jobs tend to look younger, perhaps since they're more protected from the elements (they don't have to go out in the sun as much, and they often have peers who are just as health-conscious as they are - it's shown that having fat friends predisposes you to being fat too)

#37 InquilineKea

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 11:16 PM

I'm not sure if IGF-1 is even the thing we should be looking for. Calorie restriction does decrease IGF-1 temporarily. But when a person has been on it for decades, then their intrinsic ability to produce IGF-1 won't go down, so then they tend to have higher IGF-1 levels at later ages (I have some research to support this - but I'm in a hurry right now).

I think it all ties down with the results from the British vegetarian study showing that vegetarians live longer than non-vegetarians, but that once you *control* for health-conscious people, then there is no practical effect. Vegetarians simply tend to be more careful about their diet. Also, there is a correlation between vegetarianism and IQ since smarter people are more likely to choose vegetarianism as an option (just as they are more likely to choose non-default options for everything). And if anything, I've noticed that people in "more-educated" jobs tend to look younger, perhaps since they're more protected from the elements (they don't have to go out in the sun as much, and they often have peers who are just as health-conscious as they are - it's shown that having fat friends predisposes you to being fat too)




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