9 replies to this topic

[scottl]

Just wanted to make sure everyone here is aware of the avant board:

http://forum.avantlabs.com/

it has several sections including body building training and supps, but under the Chemically Correct subsection there are discussions of nootropics. It is overall (I think) a...higher level audience (this has pros and cons) but is worth checking out.

[nootropi]

Just wanted to make sure everyone here is aware of the avant board:

http://forum.avantlabs.com
//URL]

it has several sections including body building training and supps, but under the Chemically Correct subsection there are discussions of nootropics.   It is overall (I think) a...higher level audience (this has pros and cons) but is worth checking out.

More nootropics, but proportionately A LOT prohormone use, steroid use etc. You might say that the members of that forum really don't naturally feel very masculine as several (not all) of the avant labs members posting in that forum take supplements that increase testosterone production. This may have a detrimental effect on their brain, thus the nootropics may be needed just to restore normal brain functioning. Several members there also take illcit drugs (cocaine, meth, marijuana, MDMA, and just about anything else).

Accordingly, I would not recommend anybody seeking advice about nootropics to spend much time over there...you might walk out with brain damage...that's not to say that there aren't some decent discussion going on there, but the bulk of them are anything but an overdose of testosterone induced delusions.

Lets examine some of the dangers that have been suggested for androstenedione:

Heart Disease: This is based mostly on the traditional myth that testosterone is associated with a greater risk of heart disease, primarily because men have more heart attacks than women. Paradoxically however, studies strongly indicate that the risk for cardiovascular disease is INVERSELY related to testosterone levels in men . However, while there is no legitimate evidence that the increased testosterone from androstenedione usage can increase the risk of cardiovascular
disease, there is conflicting evidence that increased levels of estrogens may or may not be a factor.

Liver dysfunction: The accusation that androstenedione usage, or the usage of any non-synthetic androgenic hormone, can lead to liver problems is misleading and completely false. Liver dysfunction is associated with the use of a certain class of synthetic oral anabolic steroids (testosterone derivatives), but NOT with testosterone itself or any of its metabolites (prohromones).

Prostate enlargment / cancer: Researchers have found no correlation between testosterone levels and BPH / prostate cancer. Estrogen however has been suggested to be a causative factors in BPH Masculinization of females: This is a possible effect of androstenedione or any other testosterone derivative (androgen) when women use it. It is dose dependent and also dependent upon the
sensitivity of the woman to such compounds. Women can take androstenedione or other prohormones safely, however they must use small amounts and be aware of changes such as increased body hair growth or voice changes. Permanent virilization is easily avoidable if usage is stopped when these signs appear.

Stunting of growth of teenagers: Androstenedione and other prohormones have always been sold with the understanding that they are for adult use only. Teenagers using the compounds run a risk of premature epiphyseal closure, which means they may not grow to the height they normally would have. While really not a threat to health, this certainly can be a significant cosmetic concern.

Gynecomastia: Gynecomastia is the development of benign breast tissue in men. It is more of a cosmetic concern than a threatening health concern. It most commonly takes the form of small (usually visually undetectable) lumps underneath the nipples. Due to the fact that androstenedione has an unfortunately high propensity to convert to estrogens, gynecomastia can occur in susceptible males.

So while androstenedione is not the "killer" that some would make it out to be, it is associated with certain undesirable side effects. These side effects are by and large caused by estrogens that androstenedione converts to in the body. This leads us to one of the most important points of this report, and that concerns the fact that for 2 years now a much safer prohormone has been available, it is the one that people are now using, and it is the one that should have been studied all along in clinical studies.

Plant steroids. Wild yam (or Mexican yams, Dioscorea villosa) is the most popular herbal remedy known to contain plant steroids. Others include saw palmetto (Serenoa repens), wild oats (Avena sativa), potency wood (Ptychopetalum olacoides), smilax (Smilax officinalis), suma (Pfaffia paniculata), and sarsaparilla (Smilax species).(40) Rice bran oil also has been used as a source of gamma-oryzanol. All are used as “legal” sources of testosterone or prohormones.

However, in spite of the popularity of this approach to getting a “testosterone boost,” there is no evidence that it works. One double-blind, randomized clinical trial with 20 young men examined a herbal remedy containing six prohormones, including 300 mg androstenedione, 150 mg DHEA, and 540 mg saw palmetto.(61) Subjects took the supplement for two weeks and then took a week off, and repeated the protocol three times. They lifted weights three days a week for eight weeks. At the end, the supplemented group did not differ from the placebo group in testosterone levels or muscle mass or strength gains. However, the supplemented group had significantly higher levels of estrogens, once again raising concerns about the effects of these supplements long-term.

Taking plant steroids has a significant problem in its theoretical basis. Manufacturers of DHEA and other steroids use a complicated series of chemical reactions to convert plant steroids into steroids found in the human body. There is significant evidence that the human body cannot do these reactions and therefore cannot convert plant steroids into human steroids.(62) In addition, plant steroids are poorly absorbed from the human intestinal tract and may elicit hormonal changes that actually reduce endogenous testosterone production.(63)

[url="http://www.ahcpub.com/ahc_root_html/products/samples/ama052001g.html"]Link

[lynx]

but the bulk of them are anything but an overdose of testosterone induced delusions

This actually means the opposite of what you intended.

[todd_lee]

Nootropi (adamP2P), do I recall that you left that forum because you made an absolute fool of yourself? Be honest.

[nootropi]

Nootropi (adamP2P), do I recall that you left that forum because you made an absolute fool of yourself?  Be honest.

I am sorry if I cannot pay attention to that forum. I don't have the time to.


Be well.

[nootropi]

but the bulk of them are anything but an overdose of testosterone induced delusions

This actually means the opposite of what you intended.

Yes, you are correct, lynx. What I meant to say is that most of the discussions at avant labs are not negatively affected by testosterone induced delusions; however, most serious discussions I have engaged at the avant forum have degenerated into a sort of unproductive quibbling and further lack reasonable conclusions.

[pinballwizard]

todd, I don't know who you are but let's leave forum politics out of this. There has been enough of that around here lately.

thank you Cosmos. Simple & to the point. The politics is getting old. 1fast400, nootropi, Todd, less poltics, more insight.

Pinball

[nootropi]

todd, I don't know who you are but let's leave forum politics out of this. There has been enough of that around here lately.

thank you Cosmos. Simple & to the point. The politics is getting old. 1fast400, nootropi, Todd, less poltics, more insight.

Pinball

Pinbal;: don't you see that I share your view? I have asked everybody to contribute to the discussion that is focused on nootropics and not who we buy them from, but who offers us more? Who trusts the community to test their products? Pinball, PM me with your phone number and send in a sample, join us in the quest for safe, affordable nootropics.

[scottl]

Cosmos--sorry but there really is no choice, this needs to be addressed.

"I have asked everybody to contribute to the discussion that is focused on nootropics and not who we buy them from, but who offers us more?"

Nootropi that is my whole point from the other night:

"not who we buy them from, but who offers us more?"

You are free to make whatever request you want, but please respect us if we choose to disregard your request. It is nothing personal and not an attack on you. But it is reasonable for people to discuss whatever suppliers in whatever context (as long as truthful) that they want to. We all have biases (being we are human) but the most helpful thing we can do is to share our wisedom with people on the board if they wish. In the end they need to get a lot of input and make their own decision.

This is why the avant board can be helpful. Ya there is all kinds of sillyness, but there is also novick and ergoman500 and more dopamine and lots of other really sharp people. Not that you and cosmos (who are on both boards) and lots of other people who's names escape me on this board aren't really sharp--you both know lots more about noootropics than I do. But the info here is much more...from one point of view and there is too little of e.g. olderbutwiser (hear that--you out there?) and other widely differening points of view.

Scott

P.S. my apologies to...all the other regular posters on this board who I have not mentioned by name. No sleight was meant.

P.P.S. if anyone does check out avant boards make sure you use the search engine and review old threads.