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The other grey goo


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#1 A941

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 07:46 PM


Is a grey goo scenario on the "macroscopic" level possible, and why hasnt it happen till today?
Would it be possible for some sorts of insects to consume large parts of the biosphere, to multiply and consume even more of the biosphere?
Or could this be done by some Kind of bacteria?

What kind of controll mehanism keeps em from destroying the planet?
Maybe this knowledge could be used for the design of nanomachines?

#2 Reno

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 01:09 AM

Is a grey goo scenario on the "macroscopic" level possible, and why hasn't it happen till today?

Yes, it's possible. Everything in nature was created through natural selection.

Would it be possible for some sorts of insects to consume large parts of the biosphere, to multiply and consume even more of the biosphere?

Yes..

Or could this be done by some Kind of bacteria?

Who knows..

What kind of control mechanism keeps them from destroying the planet?

Keeps who, bacteria? That again would probably be natural selection.

Maybe this knowledge could be used for the design of nanomachines?

Nanotechnology capable of being fully functional molecular manipulators will probably be designed with many different uniquely artificial ways of manipulating that matter. I imagine we'll probably use some tools we see in natures molecular machines, but we are also going to develop our own. This means that they would be very hazardous to the environment if they ever were released. Nature wouldn't have natural defenses against artificially engineered molecular machinery.

#3 eternaltraveler

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 05:41 AM

What kind of control mechanism keeps them from destroying the planet?


they do that every now and again.

http://en.wikipedia....gen_catastrophe

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#4 Logan

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 07:32 PM

What kind of control mechanism keeps them from destroying the planet?


they do that every now and again.

http://en.wikipedia....gen_catastrophe


Very cool and scary. Thanks for posting this.

#5 niner

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 09:05 PM

The reason we don't see insect or bacterial grey goo scenarios is because they either run out of food or are poisoned by their own waste products. There are also competing species that would eat them or out-compete them. That would probably be the biologically-based countermeasure to use against a nanobot grey goo.

#6 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 10:56 PM

I know I've said this before, but since no-one ever listens...

Grey Goo is damn near impossible. Makes no difference whether it's nano or bio.

Lets look at this logically okay?

We have a device that eats and produces nothing but copies of itself.

Exponential explosion occurs because of easily available food source.

It's at this stage that everyone seems to forget the mass vs surface area problem. I.E. that Mass increases exponentially faster than surface area.

So at the center of the "grey goo" food will go from abundant to non existent very quickly. Unless the "goo" can move food from the surface, where "food" is still available, to the center, ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS AT THE SURFACE WILL HAVE "FOOD"

thus the goo is extremely self limiting.

#7 DeadMeat

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 12:54 AM

I know I've said this before, but since no-one ever listens...

Grey Goo is damn near impossible. Makes no difference whether it's nano or bio.

Lets look at this logically okay?

We have a device that eats and produces nothing but copies of itself.

Exponential explosion occurs because of easily available food source.

It's at this stage that everyone seems to forget the mass vs surface area problem. I.E. that Mass increases exponentially faster than surface area.

So at the center of the "grey goo" food will go from abundant to non existent very quickly. Unless the "goo" can move food from the surface, where "food" is still available, to the center, ONLY THOSE ELEMENTS AT THE SURFACE WILL HAVE "FOOD"

thus the goo is extremely self limiting.


Smart goo wouldn't have that problem. If for example you would consider an expanding ring of ants, that eat just about everything and can somehow reproduce on the spot(don't need a nest etc). Then there would only be ants on the edges, where there is always a fresh supply of things to munch on. Circumference increases slower than surface area.

And if you really wanted you could probably even let them fill up the center with ants that are turned off/dormant/hibernating, that don't need continuous food(but can respond if food becomes available somehow).

#8 niner

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 01:51 AM

I would think that a sophisticated nanobot would need a wide variety of elements, at least more than a few, and it would probably run out of a critical element or two before consuming much of the biosphere. It would be easy to design them to only reproduce under certain conditions that wouldn't occur naturally. "Easy", that is, compared to the problem of creating a self replicating nanobot in the first place, a feat that I'm not holding my breath for.

#9 Elus

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 02:29 AM

I think that storing the instructions that the nanobots carry out for manufacturing more nanobots would be much more easily stored on an external computer. Therefore, you can transmit instructions from the computer to the nanobots themselves, without having to worry about storing any information on the nanobots themselves. This approach presents advantages on two fronts:

1. You can modify nanobot body plans and instructions in real time by changing what kind of instructions are transmitted by the computer.
2. Stopping the flow of instructional data from the computer to the nanobots would prevent a runaway nanobot event, since stopping the flow of information would deprive the nanobots of the necessary instructions to replicate themselves.

Edited by Elus, 10 February 2011 - 02:30 AM.


#10 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 09:32 PM

Smart goo wouldn't have that problem. If for example you would consider an expanding ring of ants, that eat just about everything and can somehow reproduce on the spot(don't need a nest etc). Then there would only be ants on the edges, where there is always a fresh supply of things to munch on. Circumference increases slower than surface area.

And if you really wanted you could probably even let them fill up the center with ants that are turned off/dormant/hibernating, that don't need continuous food(but can respond if food becomes available somehow).


Ah, but that by definition is not "grey goo" which is an unintelligent "eat and self replicate" mass of undifferentiated nanomachines. That is instead an ecosystem which is enormously more complex. By adding the ability to differentiate you introduce evolution and intelligence which makes it a "Runaway AI" not "Grey Goo."

And yes that is a crucial difference. It's the difference between a planet consuming lump of nanomachines that once finished simply die from lack of resources and thus enters stasis until the sun expands, and "Blood Music"
http://en.wikipedia....d_Music_(novel)

#11 A941

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 10:34 PM

I think that storing the instructions that the nanobots carry out for manufacturing more nanobots would be much more easily stored on an external computer. Therefore, you can transmit instructions from the computer to the nanobots themselves, without having to worry about storing any information on the nanobots themselves. This approach presents advantages on two fronts:

1. You can modify nanobot body plans and instructions in real time by changing what kind of instructions are transmitted by the computer.
2. Stopping the flow of instructional data from the computer to the nanobots would prevent a runaway nanobot event, since stopping the flow of information would deprive the nanobots of the necessary instructions to replicate themselves.


Sounds like Rupert Sheldraks wacky morphogenetic Fields.
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