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what do you suggest to keep your NMDA receptors from being too active


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16 replies to this topic

#1 todd_lee

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 07:56 PM


When are you obtaining Sulbutiamine?

#2 todd_lee

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 07:58 PM

Will you have any new nootropics available before the end of this year?

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#3 magr

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 08:01 PM

Visit their forums and make a request.

There you will also find the answer concerning your sulbutiamine question.

#4 pinballwizard

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 10:51 PM

When are you obtaining Sulbutiamine?


Todd,

Perhaps you can elaborate on your signature. How do you get to normal cognition and avoid excitotoxcicity. I find it interesting. I don't understand it though. I think other laypeople are wondering too.

#5 todd_lee

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 11:02 PM

The NMDA receptor is responsible for both normal cognition, e.g. it mediates long-term potentiation, and excitotoxicity, that is, excessive NMDA receptor activity results in excessive Ca2+ neuronal influx which causes neuronal apoptosis. In regards to your question, one obtains normal cognition and avoids excitotoxicity when the level of NMDA receptor activity is not excessive. In the diagram, "over activation" is the condition under which excitotoxicity ensues.

If you should require further clarification, please feel free to ask, as I am here to help.

#6 pinballwizard

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 11:24 PM

The NMDA receptor is responsible for both normal cognition]excessive[/b] NMDA receptor activity results in excessive Ca2+ neuronal influx which causes neuronal apoptosis.  In regards to your question, one obtains normal cognition and avoids excitotoxicity when the level of NMDA receptor activity is not excessive.  In the diagram, "over activation" is the condition under which excitotoxicity ensues.

If you should require further clarification, please feel free to ask, as I am here to help.


So what do you suggest to keep your NMDA receptors from being too active? Yoga? (Sorry, that was a joke). Are there nootropics to help? Are there nootropics that might cause excitotoxcity?

#7 stellar

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 11:51 PM

The NMDA receptor is responsible for both normal cognition]excessive[/b] NMDA receptor activity results in excessive Ca2+ neuronal influx which causes neuronal apoptosis.  In regards to your question, one obtains normal cognition and avoids excitotoxicity when the level of NMDA receptor activity is not excessive.  In the diagram, "over activation" is the condition under which excitotoxicity ensues.

If you should require further clarification, please feel free to ask, as I am here to help.


Wow.....finally something interesting besides "Smi2le sucks" or "nootropi is _______"

#8 scottl

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 12:22 AM

"So what do you suggest to keep your NMDA receptors from being too active? Yoga?"

Pinball,

One of the weakness of hanging around here (or avant really) is that one starts to think that tweaking one's supp intake/neurochemicals is the answer to everything.

#9 nootropi

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 01:13 AM

todd_lee: you have a spelling error in your signature: losses is the correct way to spell the plural form of loss.

Be well.

#10 todd_lee

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 01:22 AM

todd_lee: you have a spelling error in your signature: losses is the correct way to spell the plural form of loss.

That signature is linked to another site. I did not write it, you fool! If you're that upset about it, I suggest you contact the University of Illinois at Chicago and tell the person to correct the error in the diagram.

The more intelligent thing to do would be to contribute to the current discussion, as opposed to being the school teacher correcting spelling errors.

I now understand the frustration that 1FAST400 feels.

Wow.....finally something interesting besides "Smi2le sucks" or "nootropi is _______"

Shut your face or say something intelligent.

Edited by todd_lee, 01 December 2004 - 02:24 AM.


#11 todd_lee

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 01:39 AM

So what do you suggest to keep your NMDA receptors from being too active?

1. A partial NMDA antagonist, such as magnesium or perhaps dextromethorphan.
2. Avoid substances conducive to NMDA receptor over-activation, such as glutamate (MSG) and aspartate (NutraSweet).
3. Read 'Excitotoxins: The Taste That Kills', by Russell L. Blaylock.

Edited by todd_lee, 01 December 2004 - 01:55 AM.


#12 todd_lee

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 02:02 AM

In regards to my signature, can anyone tell me whether a line should exist between the NMDA and AMPA receptor? I mean, the NMDA receptor is dual gated, whereby the NMDA receptor is activated when the appropriate ligand is bound to the receptor (i.e. glutamate) and when the neuron on which the receptor resides is depolarized. As you all know, the neuron can be depolarized when AMPA mediated sodium ion influx occurs. Thus, given that the NMDA receptor is dependent on AMPA receptor activity one would expect that this interaction be indicated by a line in the diagram. Does anyone have any relevant thoughts that they would like to share?

#13 todd_lee

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 02:14 AM

Are there nootropics that might cause excitotoxicity?

Glutamine, maybe? Let me explain why. Excessive extracellular glutamate (not glutamine) is toxic to neurons. Glial cells, specifically, the astrocytes, have excitatory amino acid transporters on their surface which remove glutamate from the synaptic cleft. Once glutamate is inside the astrocyte it is converted to glutamine, which is a rather benign substance. Glutamine is then transported to the presynaptic neuron where it is used as fuel. As you can see, the rate at which astrocytes remove glutamate from the synaptic cleft influences whether the conditions for excitotoxicity occur. When one supplements with glutamine, the presynaptic neurons have an ample supply of glutamine for energy and hence the astrocytes are not required to remove glutamate from the synaptic cleft to yield glutamine at such a rapid rate. Thus, the concentration of extracellular glutamate increases and hence this may possibly excite neurons to death.

#14 pinballwizard

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 05:45 AM

1. A partial NMDA antagonist, such as magnesium or perhaps dextromethorphan.
2. Avoid substances conducive to NMDA receptor over-activation, such as glutamate (MSG) and aspartate (NutraSweet).
3. Read 'Excitotoxins: The Taste That Kills', by Russell L. Blaylock.


Todd,

Welcome to the board. Thank you for your contributions. I took a look at the Russell Blaylock's book, "Excitotoxins: The Taste That Kills" at Amazon. I must say it is interesting material. It is a indictment on apartame and MSG, and a host of other things that I am not familiar with. I read the customer reviews.

A host of other things that i am not familiar with
I guess he also thinks that glutamine is bad and cysteine. he says on page 183 that cysteine is "an especially dangerous environmental toxin." And on page 88 he refers to phenylalanine as "this toxic amino acid." In fact, phenylalanine is one of the essential amino acids, needed for basic human health.(which is in chocalate...please correct me if I am wrong, i only read the reviews)?

hmmm... On the amazon page he apologizes and says that he did not realize that parkinsons was around prior to the food additives, msg and aspartame.

On quackwatch.org, the creators there say that The Blaylock Wellness Report http://www.quackwatc...periodical.html is on the list of Nonrecommended Periodicals because it "they promote misinformation, espouse unscientific theories, contain unsubstantiated advice, and/or fail to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources of advice."

Scottl might remind me that Quackwatch.org has an axe to grind and that I am lucky that they have not found out about nootropics and this forum. fair enough.

Obviously this is no way to invite you to the board. I like your contribution and it is food for thought with no pun intended. I think the truth is too hard to grasp on this subject of excitotoxcity... We just had a report on how vitamin E is bad for us a couple weeks ago and we simply know too little about a vitamin as an example... We are still debating that meta-study. I would not be surprised by food additives.

With regards to glutamine. Perhaps it is similar to vitamin E in that we need it in a natural form. However, Posters at Avant said you cannot even digest it and if you could you would go crazy when the neurotransmitter went across the blood brain barrier because it would be too much for our brains to handle. Perhaps, the doctor is refering to traces that crossover and turn into glutamate.

So, while I think there is truth behind it, I also think he is probably going off the deep end too and making spurious claims for monetary gain like the doctors and the food industry are of course...

All in all, I am using the light soy sauce in the sushi restaurant and my drink might be water instead of a diet coke. But when I read the book, I will probably take it with a grain MSG. lol... (The Japanese for some reason have lower instances of Alzheimers than Americans right?)

All in all, I think you find doctors, nutritionists, athletes, psychologists, philosophers (nietzsche as an example) that find that progress in their fields have led full circle that in order to be better at their fields they have to return to nature. The really happy healthy smart people are perhaps not the wise people out their, the stressed out PHds and the overworked doctors, but some pre-socratic naturalist hick illiterates living out ignorantly on some pasteur living off the land. If you want vitamin E or glutamine eat fish. The pure stuff might kill you...lol

But one reviewer of the book said, cut out MSG and the rest for 30 days and then have some MSG and pop a diet coke and see how you feel? If you have a headache, then that is all the proof you need. You cannot argue with that.

I look forward to your posts/replies and getting my hands on the book. I promise to keep an open mind.

thanks,

Pinball

#15 scottl

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 07:01 AM

1. Repeat after me...quackwatch is not a reliable source....
quackwatch is not a reliable source...


2. Can't vouch for the book but if you search pubmed for..I think it is excitotoxicity you wil find lots of references.....

3. Par Deus (the head of avant labs):

About 40-60% of glutamine survives the gut. This is not exactly bad compared to alot of things.

I am one who thinks that glutamine is used by the gut for a reason -- and, as mentioned, it is because is the main source of ATP for a number of processes in the intestine, most importantly reapir and nutrient uptake.

It also increases liver ATP and cell-volume which is a fed state signal.

Layne has made this a pet peeve, and he is right about much of the nonsense he is trying to combat, but he misses the big picture, IMO


Par did not publish this on the avant board, but on a bodybuilding board (Rugged.com).

#16 geigertube

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 01:44 PM

1. Repeat after me...quackwatch is not a reliable source....
quackwatch is not a reliable source...



How come? They seem to have a pretty good record, just from the time I've spent there in the past. They provided an excellent debunking of the "Cure for all Diseases" lady who thinks all disease is from toxins and parasites. I wouldn't call them completely unbiased or accurate, but hey, who is?

Steven

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#17 scottl

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 03:44 PM

I should have been clearer they have a major axe to grinde i.e. dubunking stuff. e.g. from their site:

Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Science

2. The discoverer says that a powerful establishment is trying to suppress his or her work.

Do you know what homocysteine is? (if not google it). The medical establishment tried to supress it and the guy putting it forward lost all his grant funding. Why? Because it did not fit the cholesterol model. Same with H. pylori which is now known to cause ulcers. A famous physicist(?) once commented something to the effect that you will never convince established scientists of anything new. The way new discoveries are accepted, is that the older generation of scientists die out and the new generation grow up accepting it as true.

Basically if you wish to wait 400 years till after something is discovered for there to be enough proof to satisfy them, by all means....




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