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Gelatin: Liquid or Congealed?

gelatin skin joints collagen

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#1 frederickson

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 11:00 PM


The recent discussion about gelatin as a source of collagen for skin, joint, and connective tissue health has been intriguing and I would like to incorporate it into my regimen.

Is there any consensus on whether it is best to mix the gelatin powder with water, juice, etc. and drink immediately? Or is it better digested if it is heated and congealed first? Would the heat from the boiling water damage the amino acids that form collagen in the body? Overall, which would be the more bioavailable method of consumption?

Coincidentally, I recently attended a lecture by Dr. Chris D'Adamo from the Center for Integrative Medicine at the University of Maryland School of Medicine and he was touting gelatin for joint health. I'm not sure how old he is, but he said he consumes gelatin daily and seemed to be in excellent physical shape with no evidence of skin aging. He also mentioned gelatin in this article I saw recently about arthritis.

http://www.everydayh...Friend#/slide-1

He only had a few minutes for questions after the presentation and I did not get to ask him HOW he consumes his gelatin. Liquid or congealed?

#2 niner

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 02:03 AM

I really don't think it matters. It's ultimately going to be broken down to individual amino acids, possibly with a bit of di- and tripeptides, and these will be added to the body's amino acid pool. I take dry gelatin in a capsule, but I've heard of people adding it to smoothies or sprinkling it on food. I don't think that the heat from boiling water would damage the amino acids unless there was some sugar around. Then you would glycate some of them, and that would be a bad thing. I would stay away from heat to be on the safe side.

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#3 Luminosity

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 03:53 AM

I've seen three kinds of gelatin the people consume for health. As far as supplements there is Type 1 & 3 (combined). I think this is made from cow skin. That is taken for skin, hair, eyes, etc. Type 2 is taken for joints. That is made from chicken cartilage. I have taken both and noticed a difference in their effects. There is also food type gelatin which some people take for health or appearance reasons. One person recommended Great Lakes brand as a good deal. (If someone knows of a good place to mail order that item, let me know). Someone wrote on another thread as to what parts of the animal they believe food grade gelatin is made from. I don't want to misquote them. I think food gelatin is cheaper than the other kinds. There is a long history of people taking this to grow their nails and hair as a home remedy. When I took the first two types of gelatin, I found it was important to digestibility to thoroughly dissolve them in water. I didn't heat them just as a precaution. I used room temperature water. I think I wrote more about the preparation on another thread. As I wrote elsewhere, as far as type 2 collagen, the lady at the health food store said the liquid version was the bestseller, even though it was really expensive.

#4 APBT

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 01:26 PM

I really don't think it matters. It's ultimately going to be broken down to individual amino acids, possibly with a bit of di- and tripeptides, and these will be added to the body's amino acid pool. I take dry gelatin in a capsule, but I've heard of people adding it to smoothies or sprinkling it on food. I don't think that the heat from boiling water would damage the amino acids unless there was some sugar around. Then you would glycate some of them, and that would be a bad thing. I would stay away from heat to be on the safe side.

Niner
Would you mind sharing the brand and dosage you're using?

Edited by APBT, 03 October 2011 - 01:27 PM.


#5 frederickson

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 01:45 PM

Both Amazon (approx $23 for 2 lbs shipped) and the Great Lakes Website (approx $70 for 6 lbs shipped) appear to be online sources for highly regarded Great Lakes gelatin. In fact, I just ordered six pounds from Great Lakes last night. Bernard Jensen (also available on Amazon for similar price) is another brand that people seem to like.

I know the Great Lakes product is sourced from grass-fed cows and is Kosher. I am far from a vegetarian, but I do like my animal products to be humanely raised and I have a problem with Knox on those grounds. As far as price, both Great Lakes and Bernard Jensen are MUCH cheaper than Knox which is well over $20 for 1 lb (i.e. twice the cost).

#6 Luminosity

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 06:26 AM

Thanks for the tip. I prefer natural animals products too. Sometimes Amazon's sub-contractors are flaky. Has anyone here ordered through them? Or anywhere else? I don't need six pounds right now.

I finally realized you were asking about dissolved and liquid versus congealed. I'm not sure there is a difference as long as it is thoroughly dissolved. I store mine in the frig after it is dissolved so it congeals, as gelatin tends to do when cold. I let it come to room temperature before I take it so it is semi-liquid then. I do that because in Chinese medicine, taking cold food or liquids is bad for you.

#7 frederickson

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 03:20 AM

my six pounds of great lakes gelatin arrived today... 2 day shipping time, not bad!

what i've been doing is taking about a tablespoon of gelatin and adding 1/4 cup of tart cherry or pineapple juice. this ends up making a relatively thick and delicious pineapple or tart cherry "paste". the gelatin is not fully dissolved when i consume it (hence the paste-like consistency) but i assume my digestive tract will be able to use the amino acids? what do you think? i figure the acidity of the juice may help with digestion as well.

#8 niner

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 04:09 AM

what i've been doing is taking about a tablespoon of gelatin and adding 1/4 cup of tart cherry or pineapple juice. this ends up making a relatively thick and delicious pineapple or tart cherry "paste". the gelatin is not fully dissolved when i consume it (hence the paste-like consistency) but i assume my digestive tract will be able to use the amino acids? what do you think? i figure the acidity of the juice may help with digestion as well.

Our digestive systems are optimized to degrade proteins through the use of acids and proteases. I don't think it will have much trouble, particularly since it's already partially degraded.

Niner
Would you mind sharing the brand and dosage you're using?

Sure, I'm using a 600mg capsule that I got very cheaply at Swanson. It's made by 21st Century something or other. I take one or sometimes two a day. If I was going to get serious about it, I'd probably take 5-15g/day. I don't know what the optimal dose is, but I'm pretty sure that there is such a thing as too much.

#9 Lufega

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 03:18 AM

If I was going to get serious about it, I'd probably take 5-15g/day. I don't know what the optimal dose is, but I'm pretty sure that there is such a thing as too much.


I've been wondering about this myself. I added gelatin to my protein powder and I've been consuming about 15 grams a day. It makes me feel very, very sleepy. Similar to glycine but much more potent. I have no idea what an optimal dose it but I suppose it depends on the amount of protein you eat.

#10 ezeus1

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 02:23 PM

Optimal dose is 5-10g/day (

Ottenberg, R, Painless jaundice,

Journal of the American Medical Association

, 1935, 104, 9, 1681-1687)


Ingestion method doesn't matter, just don't microwave it. Microwave energy converts L-proline to D-proline which is a neurotoxic and heptatotoxic compound. (Lubec, G, et al. Amino acid isomerisation and microwave exposure, Lancet, 1989, 2, 8676, 1392-1393)


Edited by ezeus1, 02 March 2012 - 02:23 PM.

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#11 niner

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 03:21 PM

Ingestion method doesn't matter, just don't microwave it. Microwave energy converts L-proline to D-proline which is a neurotoxic and heptatotoxic compound. (Lubec, G, et al. Amino acid isomerisation and microwave exposure, Lancet, 1989, 2, 8676, 1392-1393)


Thanks for that post, ezeus1. I'm wondering about the microwaving problem though, since this would imply that we shouldn't microwave our food. The Lancet paper isn't available to me, but I did find this on pubmed:

J Am Coll Nutr. 1994 Apr;13(2):209-10.
D-aspartate and D-glutamate in microwaved versus conventionally heated milk.
Petrucelli L, Fisher GH.

OBJECTIVE:

It has been reported that microwave heating of infant formulae can isomerize and racemize amino acids in the milk proteins, causing toxicity or affecting the nutritional value of the milk formulae. Therefore, we investigated whether microwave heating vs conventional heating would produce any D- enantiomers of aspartic acid (Asp) and glutamic acid (Glu) in milk.
METHODS:

Whole and skim milk samples were heated for 10 minutes in either a microwave oven at medium power or on a hot water bath at 80 degrees C. D-Asp and D-Glu were determined by high performance liquid chromatography.
RESULTS:

Unheated (control) samples were found to contain 0.40-0.45% D-Asp and D-Glu, inherent from the original pasteurizing process. Both conventional heating and microwave heating induce < 0.25% more racemization when compared to the control samples.
CONCLUSION:

Within experimental error, there is no significant difference in the levels of these D-amino acids between the conventionally heated and microwave heated milks, thus having no significant effect on the nutritional value of the milk proteins.

PMID: 7911811


So this is telling us that any form of heating will cause AA isomerization, and microwave is no worse than other forms. Yet another reason to be a raw foodist. Anyone have any papers showing microwaves to be worse than conventional heating? I'd like to know, because I use microwaves a lot.

#12 InVeritate

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 05:28 PM

Is there anything comparable to gelatin for vegetarians? I am assuming that there is something unique about the peptides gelatin is broken down to that makes them a preferred supplement to simply having an adequate amino acid intake? Right now I am just depending on a diet that promotes collagen growth and protects collagen from being broken down.

#13 ezeus1

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 05:52 PM

Is there anything comparable to gelatin for vegetarians? I am assuming that there is something unique about the peptides gelatin is broken down to that makes them a preferred supplement to simply having an adequate amino acid intake? Right now I am just depending on a diet that promotes collagen growth and protects collagen from being broken down.


Probably not. While there are vegetarian substitutes for gelatin there is a lot of research showing that macromolecules are absorbed intact and retain biological function (Seifert and Sass 1990, Urao et al. 1997, Warshaw et al. 1974) This implies that just mimicking ingredients will not have the same result as ingesting the actual whole substance.

#14 niner

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:01 PM

Probably not. While there are vegetarian substitutes for gelatin there is a lot of research showing that macromolecules are absorbed intact and retain biological function (Seifert and Sass 1990, Urao et al. 1997, Warshaw et al. 1974) This implies that just mimicking ingredients will not have the same result as ingesting the actual whole substance.


Collagen is a pretty unusual macromolecule, and unlike typical proteins, its absorption at microgram levels would be meaningless, unless you have a collagen allergy, in which case you have bigger problems. There might be something to collagenic di- or tri-peptides getting in, but ultimately, if the goal is collagen synthesis, that is going to happen from single amino acids. Vegetarians should look carefully at their protein intake and try to make sure they are getting enough of each of the AA's in collagen.

#15 InVeritate

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 08:30 PM

Are any of the collagen peptide supplements worth considering? Are these typically synthetic or also animal derived? I am having difficulty determining an adequate amino acid intake sufficient for collagen synthesis. Wiki says Proline and Glycine comprise about 50% of collagen protein and doses for supplements are usually 600 - 2000 mg, though above several suggest 5-15g depending on diet. Does this indicate that 2.5-7g of Proline and Glycine are necessary? My main AA source is probably whey. I have a scoop (23g) or two every morning in a green smoothie. The brand I use is Jarrow Unflavored Ultrafiltered. It has .33g Glycine and 1.05g of Proline per scoop. I also have an egg or two a day and try to consume whole grains and legumes in a mixture that has a complete AA profile. But reading this thread makes me think I may be deficient. The reason I am concerned is the because I am experiencing joint pain in my elbows and shoulders. This is actually typical of a wheelchair user, which I have been for 27 years (I'm am soon to 29), but I worry my diet may exacerbate the problem. Likewise, I have a bad complexion and am starting to have sagging skin, though I attribute this to years of above average sun exposure with little to no protection.

Edited by InVeritate, 07 March 2012 - 08:32 PM.


#16 rwac

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:04 AM

Are any of the collagen peptide supplements worth considering? Are these typically synthetic or also animal derived?


I've heard of people getting benefits from UC-II, and I myself derive benefits from eating Great Lakes gelatin. The ones I have heard of are all animal based, sorry. If it's any consolation, animals are not sacrificed for gelatin as such, it is a byproduct of animals that were going to be slaughtered anyway. So no animals died specifically in order to produce the gelatin.

#17 Raptor87

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:43 PM

Are any of the collagen peptide supplements worth considering? Are these typically synthetic or also animal derived?


I've heard of people getting benefits from UC-II, and I myself derive benefits from eating Great Lakes gelatin. The ones I have heard of are all animal based, sorry. If it's any consolation, animals are not sacrificed for gelatin as such, it is a byproduct of animals that were going to be slaughtered anyway. So no animals died specifically in order to produce the gelatin.


I once met a vegetarian that said that she didn´t mind people consuming cows because nothing goes to waste, every single cell get´s used. It´s just that we alienate them and take them from their normal habitat.

Wonder if there´s any ecological gelatin somewhere?

#18 Luminosity

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 06:18 AM

Not sure if it has the same benefits but agar-agar is a japanese gelatin that is derived from seaweed. Pig, cow and chicken collagen are all side-products of the meat industry so using them up is preventing waste and does not fuel the slaughter of these animals particularly.

Haven't seen any organic green-fed free-range gelatin yet, but I hope people will let us know if it exists.

I didn't like the Vitamin Shoppe UC II. It isolates the protein from the other things in the collagen/gelatin and I found it to be ineffective. I am currently using Bronson's.


Anyone tried agar agar?

Edited by Luminosity, 25 March 2012 - 06:19 AM.


#19 spirilla01

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 12:44 PM

Would the Now Foods Beef Gelatin from Iherb be as good as the Great Lakes gelatin for collagen for skin ?

http://www.iherb.com...g/400/?p=3&sr=5

Thanks in advance

#20 InVeritate

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 05:12 PM

I do not think agar would be comparable; it is a carbohydrate. It is used in some skin care treatments but only to modify the consistency.

#21 Luminosity

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 02:02 AM

I don't use NOW foods because they don't seem to contain what they say they do. Because beef gelatin is cheap, I'm not sure they would substitute another cheap ingredient but you never know.

What is in agar agar? Is there any info about it? The Japanese do feel it has health benefits when taken orally. One lady told me it was good for anti-aging and maybe other things. They make jello out of it that is supposed to be healthy.

#22 kurdishfella

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Posted 19 July 2021 - 11:21 PM

liquid form is the most convinient. put powder in mouth then drink.




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