138 replies to this topic

[misterE]

Note the 28% fat intake in the CR group.

Also note that the majority of the calories the subjects were consuming came from starch.

"(26% of calories from protein, 28% from fat, and 46% from complex carbohydrates)."

Also the study never demonstrated reversal of atherosclerosis per say, it only indicated that the subjects undergoing CR had less atherosclerosis than controls. Perhaps the subjects in the study might not have reversed their atherosclerosis, but rather they just have less build-up in that artery, than the typical American.

Similarly if I have one piece of evidence of heart disease reversal on a high fat low carb diet then fat can't be the cause of heart disease.

But you have yet to post a study showing that. Show me the data!

Edited by misterE, 27 January 2013 - 05:59 PM.

[DePaw]

I've provided linked to books and other sources with more than enough studies, sadly the personal stories are only multiple n=1 'studies' though.

[misterE]

I've provided linked to books and other sources with more than enough studies, sadly the personal stories are only multiple n=1 'studies' though.

Answers like that, aren't going to convice people DePaw.

Edited by misterE, 27 January 2013 - 06:20 PM.

[Angelo]

misterE I want to give you thank you points. How many am I suppose to give? I see you have six. Does that mean six people gave you one point each? I have no idea. You have numerous good post that I agree with 100%.

[DePaw]

Coincidence?

[misterE]

The dietary-recommendations in the late 1970's and early 1980's to decrease fat intake and increase consumption of carbohydrates, was done with good intention (in my opinion). The recommendations suggested eating less total fat and cholesterol and to eat more complex-carbohydrates and fiber (whole-grains, beans, potatoes). But what did Americans do? They ate low-fat cookies, low-fat ice-cream, low-fat cupcakes, low-fat dairy… low-fat junk-foods pretty much. Americans never went from a high-fat diet to a diet based on whole-grains, it just didn’t happen. We continued to eat our high-fat meat based diet and ate low-fat junk food for desert.

Cheese consumption has increased over 700% since 1909 (from 4lbs a per person per year, to 33lbs per person per year). The nearly exponential-curve illustrates the massive cheese habit that Americans have. For me, this probably has more to do with the obesity epidemic than anything else.

[DePaw]

Calories from total fat has not increased, carbohydrates has slightly:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



PUFA consumption also increased a lot, as margarine over took butter, and animal fat consumption has dropped as people are actually listening to the government and manufacturer changed from coconut oil and tallow to vegetable oils.


Linoleic acid levels in human body fat have been climbing over the years due to the increase consumption of it, backing up the evidence that people are indeed eating more vegetable oils and less animal fats which are low in linoleic acid:
Even breast milk's linoleic acid content has been increasing!




The amount of linoleic acid in a small amount of vegetable oil a huge compared to meat such as beef, even fatty, and even grain-fed:



As you can see soya oil now dominates the vegetable oil production/consumption (mostly due to subsidies):


And soy is about half linoleic acid by weight!

[DePaw]

http://www.fathead-m...-is-killing-us/

[misterE]

DePaw, first off I agree with you that too much omega-6 is bad. Americans (and probably nations who are industrializing and westernizing) are eating more omega-6 than ever before. The USA dietary records show a huge increase in omega-6 laden vegetable-oil use. But even thou butter and lard aren’t used in cooking anymore… the USA and other developed nations are still eating more saturated-fat than ever, mainly in the form of beef, chicken, cheese, eggs and ice-cream. This is what the records show. And you can't convince anyone that eating 33 pounds of cheese a year, isn't a shitload of saturated-fat.

Secondly, in regards to the first graph you showed above (the one that showed the different macronutrient intakes), carbohydrate did go up, but not in the form of whole-grains or beans, but rather in the form of refined-sugar and processed-wheat used to make junk-food and hamburger-buns. So that chart is misleading.

So I agree with you that vegetable-oil and products containing omega-6 oils are harmful, but I can assure you that saturated-fat and grease is no better for you. Simply put, fat in general is not the fuel the bodies like to use. It would much prefer to use glucose, which is mainly found in whole-grains, beans and tubers in the form of starch

Edited by misterE, 30 January 2013 - 03:21 AM.

[DePaw]

DePaw, first off I agree with you that too much omega-6 is bad. Americans (and probably nations who are industrializing and westernizing) are eating more omega-6 than ever before. The USA dietary records show a huge increase in omega-6 laden vegetable-oil use. But even thou butter and lard aren’t used in cooking anymore… the USA and other developed nations are still eating more saturated-fat than ever, mainly in the form of beef, chicken, cheese, eggs and ice-cream. This is what the records show. And you can't convince anyone that eating 33 pounds of cheese a year, isn't a shitload of saturated-fat.

33 pounds of cheese a year is only ~41 grams a day, I don't consider that a lot. Look at France, they eat a lot more cheese and don't suffer the same heart disease.

Secondly, in regards to the first graph you showed above (the one that showed the different macronutrient intakes), carbohydrate did go up, but not in the form of whole-grains or beans, but rather in the form of refined-sugar and processed-wheat used to make junk-food and hamburger-buns. So that chart is misleading.

Agreed, refined foods are bad and increasing.

So I agree with you that vegetable-oil and products containing omega-6 oils are harmful, but I can assure you that saturated-fat and grease is no better for you. Simply put, fat in general is not the fuel the bodies like to use. It would much prefer to use glucose, which is mainly found in whole-grains, beans and tubers in the form of starch

This is where I don't agree with you, I see no harm in saturated fats. Yes the body will burn glucose before fats, but it will burn ethanol before glucose too, does that mean alcohol is our preferred fuel? When in ketosis, glucose requirements are drastically lessened, as our major need for glucose is for our brain, to the order of ~120g/d, but in ketosis ketones can replace about 70% of this requirement leaving ~36g/d glucose needed, which can easily be made from protein via gluconeogenesis or from glycerol in triglycerides. There is no DIETARY requirement for glucose, even during complete starvation blood glucose levels remain stable right until they die, usually from heart failure as the body cannibalises bodily proteins for gluconeogenesis, first the muscles then eventually the heart. People can and do survive and even thrive on diets will no dietary carbohydrates what so ever, such as eating only meat. They don't even get scurvy! (http://www.jbc.org/c...1.full.pdf html)


I'll also repeat what I'm posting on the 'Wheat Belly' thread as I feel is has an important in this discussion too:

"Many of you are lumping fats and sugar together, and I feel this is very unjust. Yes a high fat, high sugar diet will cause many problems, and is that exact diet used by scientists to study metabolic syndrome, but high fat LOW CARB diets cure metabolic syndrome. The Standard American Diet (SAD) is very rich in vegetable oils and omega-6 fats, as are the diets used on rats. Is is the fat, or the type of fat? Is it the sugar? Is it the too together? A low fat high starch diet will also cure obesity, diabetes, etc, both lack sugar. So maybe it is just the sugar, or maybe it's sugar+omega-6? Maybe there are two ways you can go about healing metabolic syndrome: fat and little carbs, or carbs and little fat, but not both high together."

I will agree with your on the legumes and tubers, but not grains. I don't see those are suitable foods, legumes are much better. And of course any legumes (and grains) you eat should be proper prepared by soaking, sprouting, or fermenting, to remove the phytic acid which inhibits mineral absorption.

[misterE]

33 pounds of cheese a year is only ~41 grams a day, I don't consider that a lot

75% of the calories in cheddar-cheese comes from fat. 47% of the calories comes from saturated-fat. 33 pounds of cheese one year, means you will eat 66 pounds more the next two years, averaging nearly 100 pounds of cheese and 50 pounds of saturated-fat. Can you imagine putting 50 pounds of saturated-fat in your body within three years time span! And that's not including all the meat, ice-cream and vegetable-oil (which are also rich in saturated-fat) that Americans eat.

This is where I don't agree with you, I see no harm in saturated fats. Yes the body will burn glucose before fats, but it will burn ethanol before glucose too, does that mean alcohol is our preferred fuel? When in ketosis, glucose requirements are drastically lessened, as our major need for glucose is for our brain, to the order of ~120g/d, but in ketosis ketones can replace about 70% of this requirement leaving ~36g/d glucose needed, which can easily be made from protein via gluconeogenesis or from glycerol in triglycerides.

Gluconeogenesis is a bad thing. That's what happens in type-2 diabetes when the body doesn't sense that it is getting enough glucose. Insulin inhibits gluconeogenesis, and shuttles glucose into the muscles to be stored as glycogen and used as energy. With type-2 diabetes and insulin-resistance, insulin is present in the body (often in excess amounts) but it is unable to perform its functions, one of which is inhibiting gluconeogenesis. Chronic gluconeogenesis basically leads to muscle-wasting (due to the body converting amino-acids into glucose instead of using them to build lean body-mass).

Insulin-resistance develops when the adipose-tissue becomes overstuffed with fatty-acids. When the adipocytes become overstuffed, they become resistant to insulin. When the adipose-tissue becomes resistant to insulin, it begins melting and releasing its stored fatty acids, called non-esterfied-fatty-acids or free-fatty-acids (FFA’s). The FFA’s circulate in the blood and cause atherosclerosis, the accumulate around the organs, known as visceral-fat, they accumulate in the muscles and inhibit glucose uptake and glycogen synthesis, they accumulate in the liver and cause fatty-liver and insulin-resistance in the liver, which leads to chronic gluconeogenesis, the FFA’s cause fatty build up around the heart and they even accumulate in the pancreas and damage the beta-cells which are responsible for producing insulin. This condition is known as lipotoxicity and it’s primarily caused (according to the scientific literature) by diets high in fat, especially saturated-fat [1-3].

I will agree with your on the legumes and tubers, but not grains. I don't see those are suitable foods, legumes are much better. And of course any legumes (and grains) you eat should be proper prepared by soaking, sprouting, or fermenting, to remove the phytic acid which inhibits mineral absorption.

Phytic-acid might be a good thing. It is actually a phytonutrient that has antioxidant and insulin-sensitizing effects [6]. I'm not too worried about mineral-status, cause most aliments and diseases are caused by excess, rather than deficiency. In regards to your view on grains… my view is that without them, humans would be back in the stone-age. You would not be alive right now if it wasn’t for grains.


[1] Exp Clin Endocrinol Diabetes. 2001;109 Suppl 2:S189-201. The role of lipids in the pathogenesis of muscle insulin resistance and beta cell failure in type II diabetes and obesity. Kraegen EW, Cooney GJ, Ye JM.

[2] Proc Nutr Soc. 2007 Feb;66(1):33-41. High-fat diet, muscular lipotoxicity and insulin resistance. Schrauwen P.

[3] J Med Invest. 2009 Aug;56(3-4):88-92. Saturated fatty acids and insulin resistance. Funaki M.

[4] Free Radic Biol Med. 1990;8(1):61-9. Antioxidant functions of phytic acid. Graf E, Eaton JW.

[DePaw]

MisterE,

I eat over 100g of saturated fat almost every day and have never felt better! My diet is ~80% fat by calories (the rest being protein), 2100 calories [100g protein, 200g basically] and this allows me to lose weight just as easily as 1300 calories of a higher carb diet. My fats come from pork meat, beef tallow, ghee (clarified butter), and coconut oil. I also eat some cheese.

Gluconeogenesis happens ALL THE TIME, yes there is a big problem in diabetes with excess gluconeogenesis but in a non-diabetic it still happens and is nearly constant whether on a high carb or low carb diet. Insulin does not inhibit gluconeogenesis but just shuttles the glucose into the fat cells to keep blood sugar levels stable, gluconeogenesis is ONLY a problem for those with zero insulin production and aren't taking any insulin themselves.

Gluconeogenesis levels on high/low carb are nearly the same, but glycogenolysis is much greater on high carb which is the breakdown of glycogen into glucose and its release into the blood which is the bigger problem (gluconeogenesis just replenishes liver glycogen from protein):

(Notice total glucose output into the blood from the body (rather than food) is BIGGER on a high carb diet)


"Insulin-resistance develops when the adipose-tissue becomes overstuffed with fatty-acids." Physiological insulin resistance is a GOOD thing on a low carb diet, muscles switch to burning fats and ketone bodies for fuel by becoming insulin resistant in order to spare glucose for the brain.

Non alcoholic fatty liver disease is caused by fructose, not fats. In fact ketogenic diet are used to successfully treat fatty liver: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22617564


"Phytic-acid might be a good thing...." Away from food yes, it has chelating properties which can help removed excess iron for example. But in many poor nations they have serious deficiency issues from eating a lot of high-phytic acid grains.

"I'm not too worried about mineral-status, cause most aliments and diseases are caused by excess, rather than deficiency." I would say balance between different minerals is more important, and the biggest problem with vegan/vegetarian diets is excess copper and too little zinc.

"In regards to your view on grains… my view is that without them, humans would be back in the stone-age. You would not be alive right now if it wasn’t for grains." I'd also be in good health though, and not have to be doing so much to heal myself, part of which involves a high-fat ketogenic diet which is working wonders for me.

Edited by DePaw, 01 February 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[misterE]

MisterE,

I eat over 100g of saturated fat almost every day and have never felt better! My diet is ~80% fat by calories (the rest being protein), 2100 calories [100g protein, 200g basically] and this allows me to lose weight just as easily as 1300 calories of a higher carb diet. My fats come from pork meat, beef tallow, ghee (clarified butter), and coconut oil. I also eat some cheese.

Good grief...


According to the scientific-literature, in which I've posted for everyone to read. I can only warn you and the people reading this, that an 80% fat diet, especially one high in saturated-fat, has long been known to cause lipotoxicity and insulin-resistance. With that said, if you decide to eat this rich greasy diet, do so at your own risk. I've shown compelling evidence that this type of diet promotes atherosclerosis and have even shown three studies demonstrating reversal of atherosclerosis on the complete opposite diet recommended by DePaw.

Edited by misterE, 01 February 2013 - 09:17 PM.

[DePaw]

I'll be sure to tell all my friends who've reversed their heart disease, diabetes, and obesity, etc on such a diet. Oh and I'll be sure to fly to Africa to let the Masai warriors who eat nothing but milk and blood that their low cholesterol and complete lack of atherosclerosis is just a coincidence, and the Inuit people too...

Seriously MisterE, you really talk a lot of bollocks. I've done by scientific research and come to the conclusion that a low carb, high fat (low PUFA though), medium protein diet is best for us, and matches what we've eaten for most our of evolution living as hunter-gatherers for the last 2+ million years. In fact meat eating was recently pushed back to about ~ 3.6 million years of something like that, compared to what 10,000 years of farming which is nothing!

[misterE]

Seriously MisterE, you really talk a lot of bollocks.

Oh really? You’re the one making absurd claims that "diets high in saturated-fat reverse heart-disease" yet provided absolutely no studies to back that claim, yet I'm the one talking bollocks. Perhaps all that lard you are eating is obstructing blood-flow to your brain?

I've done by scientific research

Yet you provide us with no credible studies!




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I rest my case.
If people want to adopt your diet, they do so at their own risk. I've done my part, by challenging this rubbish, I've provided the best studies I could to prove my point, and if people want to ignore that and countinue eating themselvs into metabolic-syndrome, then there is nothing more I can do. Good luck folks, I hope you make the right choice!

Edited by misterE, 01 February 2013 - 11:59 PM.

[DePaw]

I have provided links, but seriously do what you want, I'll do what I want. But the low carb movement is growing, now more than a quarter of Swedish people are low carb high fat now, the country recently sold out of butter because the demand increased so much. Let's say to meet talk again a few decades down the line and see how we're both doing then. Cos I feel great eating as I do, high carb low fat destroys me, energy wise, makes me gain weight, makes me depressed and aggressive, etc.

[DePaw]

But I highly recommend you do some proper research into ketosis and ketogenic diets.

[Shepard]

But the low carb movement is growing,

As it has multiple times before. These things are on a pendulum.

Edited by Shepard, 05 February 2013 - 04:45 AM.

[niner]

if I have one piece of evidence of heart disease reversal on a high fat low carb diet then fat can't be the cause of heart disease. Full stop.

I think it's more complicated than that. People with different ApoE genotypes have different responses to high fat or high carb diets. What works for one person might be the exact wrong thing for another.