8 replies to this topic

[Mikael Llerena]

So ok, i'll be concise: Does too much choline (as supplemented with piracetam) cause brain fog and too little cause headache or what?

[Cephalon]

Too little choline intake may cause headache when using a acetylcholine uptake enhancer (not sure about the term) like piracetam. I'm not aware of any brain fog issues with too much choline. I get peripheral issues with choline overdose (rapid heart beat, stomach issues). Especially in conjunction with a acetylcholine esterase inhibitor.

A good thing is to take choline as needed. When I was using plain choline I took 250mg 2-3 times per week and I was headache free at round about 5gramms piracetam/day.

For me less is more ...

[manic_racetam]

First of all, not all choline sources are created equal, and they have different mechanisms of action and different processes of metabolism.

So the mood/brain-fog effects of choline really depend on what kind of choline you're taking. If you're taking choline bitartrate/citrate or lecithin then don't worry about it. Those forms must be metabolized first before crossing the blood brain barrier (not actually certain about lecithin, but that's likely the case) which means that your body regulates the amount of acetylcholine increase you'll get in the brain from them.

Alpha-GPC, CDP Choline and DMAE cross the blood brain barrier directly so they require dramatically reduced dosages in comparison. For example you could safely take 6-8grams of lecithin but you'd definitely want to avoid ever taking 6-8 grams of Alpha-GPC. DMAE has a different mechanism of action and there are some great posts by devinthayer on this forum about it (try out that search function).

There are plenty of people taking piracetam without a choline source outside of their normal dietary intake. Personally I found that BBB (blood brain barrier) crossing forms of choline are the number one source for unwanted emotional effects or brain fog. I tried DMAE and it made me dulled out, depressed and spacey.

When I finally run out of choline bitartrate (500g's lasts forever) I'm going to switch to choline citrate, and that's what I'd recommend. Choline is good for a lot of different things in the body. For a lot more info check this link. You can take up to 3.5grams per day safely and side effect free and there isn't much reason to go over that amount.

Since your body regulates it's distribution through metabolism you're unlikely to experience any brain fog or mental-cholinergic side effects. I was taking around 3 grams a day for the first 8 months of the year in three divided doses. Never got any headaches except from nefiracetam but that's a whole-nother thread.

[Mikael Llerena]

So with lecithin, I've found that just taking 1200 mg with 2g piracetam prevents headaches...if that's the case should I still ensure that I get a higher intake or should I just leave it at that and regulate if say I begin to get a headache? (in other words, is piracetam still as effective with little choline given that you don't feel the effects of low choline?

And also, to clarify, you're saying that an excess of choline won't produce brain fog/sleepiness?

[manic_racetam]

If the form of choline crosses the Blood Brain Barrier directly then it will cause brain fog in excess. In my experience, the forms of choline that don't cross it directly, don't cause brain fog, even in excess.

And yes, if the lecithin is preventing headache then I wouldn't mess with the dose.

[health_nutty]

So with lecithin, I've found that just taking 1200 mg with 2g piracetam prevents headaches...if that's the case should I still ensure that I get a higher intake or should I just leave it at that and regulate if say I begin to get a headache? (in other words, is piracetam still as effective with little choline given that you don't feel the effects of low choline?

And also, to clarify, you're saying that an excess of choline won't produce brain fog/sleepiness?

Too much acetylcholine causes also headaches for me. I get this after a couple of days of combining ALCAR and CDP-choline. I'm still trying to tinker with the dosage. I'm going to experiment with dumping CDP-choline and just take lecithin (for choline), ALCAR (to boost acetylcholine), and brewer's yeast (for uridine).

The main reason I took CDP-choline was it boosts aCh AND is a source of uridine. However, the aCh boosting is just too strong. ALCAR alone should be sufficient to boost aCh and is much much cheaper (available in bulk powder). Brewer's yeast is a good source of uridine and other goodies and is also relatively cheap.

[Renegade]

First of all, not all choline sources are created equal, and they have different mechanisms of action and different processes of metabolism.

So the mood/brain-fog effects of choline really depend on what kind of choline you're taking. If you're taking choline bitartrate/citrate or lecithin then don't worry about it. Those forms must be metabolized first before crossing the blood brain barrier (not actually certain about lecithin, but that's likely the case) which means that your body regulates the amount of acetylcholine increase you'll get in the brain from them.

Alpha-GPC, CDP Choline and DMAE cross the blood brain barrier directly so they require dramatically reduced dosages in comparison. For example you could safely take 6-8grams of lecithin but you'd definitely want to avoid ever taking 6-8 grams of Alpha-GPC. DMAE has a different mechanism of action and there are some great posts by devinthayer on this forum about it (try out that search function).

There are plenty of people taking piracetam without a choline source outside of their normal dietary intake. Personally I found that BBB (blood brain barrier) crossing forms of choline are the number one source for unwanted emotional effects or brain fog. I tried DMAE and it made me dulled out, depressed and spacey.

When I finally run out of choline bitartrate (500g's lasts forever) I'm going to switch to choline citrate, and that's what I'd recommend. Choline is good for a lot of different things in the body. For a lot more info check this link. You can take up to 3.5grams per day safely and side effect free and there isn't much reason to go over that amount.

Since your body regulates it's distribution through metabolism you're unlikely to experience any brain fog or mental-cholinergic side effects. I was taking around 3 grams a day for the first 8 months of the year in three divided doses. Never got any headaches except from nefiracetam but that's a whole-nother thread.

I took 300mg of Choline Bitartrate this morning and I feel really fogged out and slow! Why would it give me this effect?

I also respond badly to piracetam, uridine and 'higher' doses of ALCAR.

[phineas]

Aaargh. I was just about to take Choline (phosphatidyl choline complex, 1200 mg typically providing phosphatidylcholine 420). I used to take it to sharpen up. Am I wrong to do this? Perhaps I'll forgo that this morning and just take carnitine.

Edited by phineas, 07 December 2012 - 11:13 AM.

[psych0therapist]

First of all, not all choline sources are created equal, and they have different mechanisms of action and different processes of metabolism.

So the mood/brain-fog effects of choline really depend on what kind of choline you're taking. If you're taking choline bitartrate/citrate or lecithin then don't worry about it. Those forms must be metabolized first before crossing the blood brain barrier (not actually certain about lecithin, but that's likely the case) which means that your body regulates the amount of acetylcholine increase you'll get in the brain from them.

Alpha-GPC, CDP Choline and DMAE cross the blood brain barrier directly so they require dramatically reduced dosages in comparison. For example you could safely take 6-8grams of lecithin but you'd definitely want to avoid ever taking 6-8 grams of Alpha-GPC. DMAE has a different mechanism of action and there are some great posts by devinthayer on this forum about it (try out that search function).

There are plenty of people taking piracetam without a choline source outside of their normal dietary intake. Personally I found that BBB (blood brain barrier) crossing forms of choline are the number one source for unwanted emotional effects or brain fog. I tried DMAE and it made me dulled out, depressed and spacey.

When I finally run out of choline bitartrate (500g's lasts forever) I'm going to switch to choline citrate, and that's what I'd recommend. Choline is good for a lot of different things in the body. For a lot more info check this link. You can take up to 3.5grams per day safely and side effect free and there isn't much reason to go over that amount.

Since your body regulates it's distribution through metabolism you're unlikely to experience any brain fog or mental-cholinergic side effects. I was taking around 3 grams a day for the first 8 months of the year in three divided doses. Never got any headaches except from nefiracetam but that's a whole-nother thread.

Thank you for this post, it's easily the most informative thing I've found on the subject in my recent search for answers on this. I'm wondering if you can answer a question for me: in your opinion, are those with ACh Dominance (a-la Braverman test) more likely to develop side effects from BBB choline sources? 

 

I am strongly ACh dominant, and haven't been taking much choline in any form for the past 6 months, but am now starting to have symptoms that sound like choline deficiency. Because I have an egg allergy, I don't get much choline from my diet and am looking to supplementation. Bitartrate seems like my best option based on your post, but I'd love to get your take on how you would tailor your recommendations based on a person's relative neurotransmitter dominance/deficit.