26 replies to this topic

[APBT]

Beyond the standard bone health nutrients, has anyone used either of these supplements? Is there any value to inculding them in a bone health regimen, or is it mostly marketing hype? Thoughts?

AOR Advanced Bone Protection (MBP)
http://www.aor.ca/ht...ducts.php?id=10

KoACT (calcium collagen chelate)
http://www.swansonvi...U701/ItemDetail
http://www.koact.net/
http://www.aidp.com/koact

[APBT]

Here's another novel bone support supplement. Comments? Thoughts?

Bonolive
http://www.swansonvi...rom-olives.html

[MrHappy]

A lot of bone density issues are observed when the calcium that was intended to go to bone density ends up in your soft tissues. Supplementing extra calcium can help alleviate the symptoms, at the cost of more calcium ending up in the soft tissue.

Muscle cramps, calcified muscles and reduced mobility are the noticable symptoms.

Better option is to help your calcium end up in the right place.

Magnesium, vitamins C, D3, K2.

[APBT]

MrHappy, thanks for your reply.

I agree that the nutrients you mention are important and for the reasons stated, not only for bone health but, for other reasons too.

The impetus for the original post was a DEXA scan test result indicating osteopenia in a family member. They consumed dairy, along with the supps you mention and performed weight-bearing exercise. Yet, they still have sub-par bone density. In fact, recently they fractured their fibula and tore several ligaments. So, I am interested in other possible supplemental candidates that may confer beneficial effects. Clearly, at least in this case, the standard bone health protocol wasn't adequate.

[MrHappy]

There is a form of calcium from sea-vegetables which is absorbed extremely well. My grandmother was diagnosed with osteo-arthritis (joint and bone deterioration) and made rapid progress with those previously mentioned nutrients and that form of calcium.

Calcium carbonate is possibly the least useful form for absorption, but is usually the common type prescribed..

What quantities of those nutrients are they on?

[niner]

Sorry to hear about your family member's osteopenia/fracture, APBT. Along with quantities of those nutrients, what forms/formulations were they? I would look at a good bone supplement like Jarrow's Bone Up. The form of calcium they use is distinctly better than the usual salts. Make sure that 25-OH-D3 serum level is over 30ng/ml. (oil-based formulations of D3 are usually needed; dry D is very poorly absorbed. I would also take an oil-formulated form of K2- MK7 and/or MK4. I'd also use a bioavailable form of silicon; either BioSil or JarrowSil. There are some things that should or could be avoided: ditch the colas and any other drink with phosphoric acid in it. (that's the 'should') Osteopenia and osteoporosis are epidemiologically associated with the consumption of chocolate and also with SSRIs. These are things that you might avoid if feasible. Finally, it's hard to beat a later generation bisphosphonate like Actonel as a way to bring BMD up quickly. I have some concern about using them long term, as they may interfere with proper bone remodeling and leave you with bones that are not as strong as your BMD might indicate. It might be possible to get around this problem by cycling them. Most of the internet scare stories about bisphosphonates are based on very specialized populations and early generation drugs. Overall they are exceptionally well tolerated and may have health benefits in addition to their bone effects.

[Luminosity]

Sorry to hear about your relative's diagnosis. I am not familiar with the supplements you mentioned but I know of some others that might be helpful and I have some opinions on what she should not consume.

All of the standard western medications for this problem ARE DISASTERS. They contain phosphorus which leaches minerals out of the bones and makes them look stronger on the surface temporarily only to destroy them in time. If you are familiar with concrete spaulding, it is a similar dynamic. The temporary gains are illusions. There was once an industrial disease called phossy or fossy jaw which came from being exposed to phosphorus in factories. Maybe you can find pictures of it, because it was bad. The American diet is high in phosphorus, we especially consume it in sodas and wheat. I hope to God she does not take any of those medications like Fosamax, Boniva or Actonel. It could be best not to drink sodas or too many acidic things, and to eat well. She should probably not drink coffee or black tea?

Supplements vary in quality. Like someone else here said, calcium carbonate is pretty useless. Although I disagree with Niner on the drugs I agree on what good supplements are. I like Bone Up by Jarrow although it might cause arthritis or a similar problem if poorly absorbed. I like JarroSil Silica. I take StimTein which contains bone morphogenic proteins. I think it works. I take a higher dose than they say. You have to mail order that. I like Source Naturals Vitamin D, I think it is 2000 mg. I always take it with a meal containing fat or oil. It is effective.

Take a good look at any medications your relative is taking as they may be part of the problem.

Acupuncture and Chinese herbs would probably help, if you can find a good practitioner.

Edited by Luminosity, 15 November 2011 - 06:16 AM.

[MrHappy]

Correct - those meds increase density on the very outside of the bone, but leave chalk/cheese underneath. Not good.

[GhostBuster]

My list would include the following candidates:

Vitamin D
Vitamin K (MK4 and MK7)
Strontium
Silica (Jarrowsil/Biosil)
Magnesium
Creatine
Pycnogenol
Resveratrol
Collagen (gelatin)
Vitamin C

[Luminosity]

That's probably a good list. I'm still learning but it sounds good. I found it was important to take collagen dissolved in water for absorption, for me. Type II is supposed to be good for cartilage and types I and III for skin. Gelatin probably contains mixed types and is cheaper. Great Lakes brand has been recommended here by a number of people. I'm told you can order it on Amazon. I'm not sure that collagen helps bones, but if it does, then taking Great Lakes Gelatin or NeoCell Immucell Type II dissolved in water could be a good idea.

[APBT]

Thanks to everyone who took their time to contribute to this post. More replies are certainly welcome and encouraged.

Bone health, while not sexy and exciting like, for example, nootropics, is of utter importance to one's health. Particularly as we age. Without some measure of testing (DEXA) one wouldn't know they have sub-par bone strength. And while a bone fracture is no fun at any age, it can come with fatal consequences in the elderly. This experience has heightened my interest in pursuing my quest for developing the ultimate bone strength supplement and lifestyle program for my family member (and now for myself too).

I'll address the questions posed in a bulk reply.

Bone supplements used:
LEF Bone Restore (5 caps daily) http://www.iherb.com...sules/6648?at=0
NOW Foods Vitamin D3 (5000 IU daily) http://www.iherb.com...gels/22335?at=0
VRP Ultra K2 Menatetrenone (15 mg daily) http://www.vrp.com/b...-joint/ultra-k2

Lifestyle:
Running
Free-weight training

Diet:
Low fat milk
Low fat yogurt
Full-fat cheese
No soda in the last five years (prior, 1-3 daily, possibly a contributing factor?)
Chocolate several times weekly
Coffee 1-2 cups daily
Tea 1-2 cups weekly

Vitamin D level 50.5 ng/ml

No bone meds (bisphosphonates). The surgeon who attached the plate to the fracture advised against any meds at this time.

No SSRIs

I think I'll suggest strontium, although this should be consumed a few hours outside of calcium.

The KoACT (calcium collagen chelate) sounds promising, in concept at least. Improving bone strength and flexibility.

[DukeNukem]

Ghostbuster's list is pretty good. I'd definitely emphasize magnesium, vitamin D3, and K2.

Bone health is generally associated with diet, and in particular a high-inflammation diet increases demineralization of bone tissue. Omega-6 fatty acids are a major culprit in inflammation and bone density issues. Rather than give you my layman's take, he's a good rundown:
http://coolinginflam...-treatment.html

I suspect your diet includes "heart-heathly" vegetable oils, and/or grains.

As with most pre-average-lifespan degenerative conditions, diet (or consumption of toxins) is generally the foundational cause. And chronic systemic inflammation is almost always a leading candidate.

[niner]

With the LEF Bone Restore, I'd add a more bioavailable form of silicon to the mix. My understanding is that the horsetail sourced products aren't very bioavailable. BioSil has published data. I'm not really crazy about the amount and form of calcium in the LEF BR; I'd take a look at AOR's bone supplement and Jarrow's. AOR has a very nice bone article somewhere on their site, in one of the editions of their occasional publication. It talks about the calcium source they use, which is derived from cow bones. (Don't worry, they are scrupulously careful about BSE.)

[Luminosity]

I'm pretty confused about whether this routine is yours or your relatives? Anyway,

I have personally found the NOW supplements I've used to be ineffective. I believe that some of them do not contain what they are supposed to contain. I would recommend that you switch to Source Naturals Vitamin D taken with a meal containing fat or oil.

Glad you or whoever isn't taking the phosphorus drugs. Whew!

You should run your consumption of coffee, tea and chocolate by a MD you trust who specializes in this area.

I am guessing that the more acidic the diet is, the more problems in this area. The people who have the strongest bones and teeth, Pacific Islanders, have a diet low in acids, high in vitamin A, and high in fresh fish (good fats) and high in bioavailable calcium from Taro and Poi. They historically drank mostly water. Historically, they ate no grains and no dairy. There was, of course plenty of sunlight. I am basing my assessment of their bones and teeth on having lived among them all my life as well as people of all other ethnic backgrounds. Who has a lot of dental problems? The English, lots of wheat, tea, dairy, and less sunlight. Not to demonize dairy.

Personally, I eat dairy. I try to make most of it whole milk plain natural yogurt, Brown Cow or Stonyfield Farms brands. This feels healthiest to me. I feel that low or no fat yogurt is too acidic and missing the nutrients from the whole fat yogurt. If you eat healthier fats or oils with certain foods or supplements, it will help help you metabolize them. Most vitamins and supplements except for B and C would benefit from being consumed in this manner, as well as green and orange vegetables.

I tell everyone, and myself too, to try and eat a steamed green vegetable every day. That has to help.

There is a theory that if you consume too many acidic substances, your body will leach minerals out of your tissues to neutralize the acids and restore the PH balance of your blood. That may be a mechanism by which this problem is caused. Keeping an alkaline balance to your diet would probably help. More fruits and vegetables, some rice instead of wheat, less acidic stuff, green tea instead of black, etc. Inflamation and acidity are linked.

I just talked to Great Lakes Gelatin and the person answering the phone said their Beef Gelatin is made from hides which would probably make it not a good source of type II collagen. I'm not even sure if collagen is important here but I thought I'd add that. Collagen seems to be more important for joints, but our diets are deficient in collagen as we discard those parts of the animals. If you run, it's not a bad thing to try.

[APBT]

I'm pretty confused about whether this routine is yours or your relatives? Anyway,

I thought I was pretty clear. But to assuage your confusion, I've never fractured a bone :-)

[APBT]

My list would include the following candidates:

Vitamin D
Vitamin K (MK4 and MK7)
Strontium
Silica (Jarrowsil/Biosil)
Magnesium
Creatine
Pycnogenol
Resveratrol
Collagen (gelatin)
Vitamin C

Thanks for your comprehensive list.
Do you have a preferred/recommended type(s) of magnesium?
What are the reasons for including creatine, resveratrol and pycnogenol?

[APBT]

With the LEF Bone Restore, I'd add a more bioavailable form of silicon to the mix. My understanding is that the horsetail sourced products aren't very bioavailable. BioSil has published data. I'm not really crazy about the amount and form of calcium in the LEF BR; I'd take a look at AOR's bone supplement and Jarrow's. AOR has a very nice bone article somewhere on their site, in one of the editions of their occasional publication. It talks about the calcium source they use, which is derived from cow bones. (Don't worry, they are scrupulously careful about BSE.)

With BioSil do you suggest the pills or the liquid (drops)?

Regarding the LEF BR, what about the amount of Ca are you not crazy about, too much?

I found the AOR bone health paper you suggested. After a quick review, here are the recommendations and salient points:

Calcium (MCHC) (1300-1600 mg daily total, diet and supps combined)
Strontium Citrate (680 mg daily) taken away from calcium. May take 2 -3 years to show improvement via DEXA
Vitamin K2 MK-4 Menatetrenone (up to 45 mg daily)
Vitamin D3
Magnesium (magnesium mono aspartate is most bioavailable)
Manganese
Zinc
Copper
Silicon
Boron
Vitamin C
Vitamin B12
Folic acid
Milk Basic Protein (MBP) (40 mg daily)
Protein (0.45-0.68 grams per pound of body weight daily)
Vitamin A (preformed) just 5000 or 6600 IU daily ~doubles risk of fracture
Eat an "Alkaline-Ash" diet
Don't smoke (really???)
Consume alcohol in moderation only
Exercise (resistance and weight-bearing)
Maintain a healthy weight
Consume (most) supps in divided doses 2-3 times daily with food

[APBT]

Ghostbuster's list is pretty good. I'd definitely emphasize magnesium, vitamin D3, and K2.

Bone health is generally associated with diet, and in particular a high-inflammation diet increases demineralization of bone tissue. Omega-6 fatty acids are a major culprit in inflammation and bone density issues. Rather than give you my layman's take, he's a good rundown:
http://coolinginflam...-treatment.html

I suspect your diet includes "heart-heathly" vegetable oils, and/or grains.

As with most pre-average-lifespan degenerative conditions, diet (or consumption of toxins) is generally the foundational cause. And chronic systemic inflammation is almost always a leading candidate.

Thanks for the link. I agree, omega-6 (particularly in abundance) are bad dudes. What I found most interesting was in the comments section. The author seemed pretty naive about K2. In searching the other blog posts, he only briefly touches on it.

Do you have a preferred type and quantity of magnesium?

[GhostBuster]

Thanks for your comprehensive list.
Do you have a preferred/recommended type(s) of magnesium?
What are the reasons for including creatine, resveratrol and pycnogenol?

To make the discussion more interesting I decided to add some hypothetical candidates. There are studies to back them up, however.

Pycnogenol:

http://www.ergo-log....trongbones.html


Creatine:

http://www.ergo-log....atinebones.html

Resveratrol:

http://www.ergo-log....onesstrong.html

I found it logical that pycnogenol supports bone health since it is known to support the collagen structure in the skin, so why not in the bones also. But the effect might also be related to the polyphenols, since apparently for example blueberries are good for the bones too, at least in rodents.

Iodine is also something to think about, according to this study iodine and selenium defience impairs the bone growth. Iodine deficiency is relatively common.

Effects of selenium and iodine deficiency on bone, cartilage growth plate and chondrocyte differentiation in two generations of rats.

CONCLUSIONS: Combined selenium and iodine deficiency impaired the growth of bone and cartilage. The changes in the expression of ColX and PTHrP induced by combined selenium and iodine deficiency were compatible to measurements of ColX and PTHrP in Kashin-Beck osteoarthropathy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17490897

Edited by GhostBuster, 20 November 2011 - 12:54 AM.

[DukeNukem]

Magnesium oxide is basically worthless rock. Go with a chelated form, or citrate. Try to get 200mg (elemental) daily. Magnesium is one of the most important anti-inflammatory minerals. it's also the yen to calcium's yang. People who just supplement calcium are missing the boat if they do not also include magnesium.

[Hebbeh]

Magnesium oxide is basically worthless rock.

That's a bold statement. This very well conducted study would indicate otherwise.

http://www.jle.com/e...E/article.phtml
Author(s) : C Coudray, M Rambeau, C Feillet-Coudray, E Gueux, JC Tressol, A Mazur, Y Rayssiguier , Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine d’Auvergne, Laboratoire des Maladies Métaboliques et Micronutriments, INRA de Theix/Clermont-Ferrand, 63122 Saint-Genès-Champanelle, France.

Summary : Literature data on the bioavailability of various Mg forms provide scarce information on the best Mg salt to be used in animal and human supplementation. This study aimed to investigate the bioavailability of different forms of Mg in rats using Mg stable isotopes. Eighty male Wistar rats aged 6 weeks were fed a semi-purified Mg-depleted diet for three weeks. The rats were then randomised into ten groups and received, for two more weeks, the same diet repleted with Mg (550 mg Mg/kg) as: oxide, chloride, sulphate, carbonate, acetate, pidolate, citrate, gluconate, lactate or aspartate. After 10 days of Mg-repleted diet, the rats received orally 1.8 mg of an enriched ²⁶Mg. Faeces and urine were then collected for 4 consecutive days. Isotope ratios in faeces and urine were determined. The Mg absorption values obtained varied from 50% to 67%. Organic Mg salts were slightly more available than inorganic Mg salts. Mg gluconate exhibited the highest Mg bioavailability of the ten Mg salts studied. Urinary ²⁶Mg excretion varied from 0.20 mg to 0.33 mg, and feeding with the organic pidolate, citrate, gluconate and aspartate salts resulted in higher urinary ²⁶Mg excretion than with inorganic salts. Ultimately, ²⁶Mg retention was higher in the rats receiving the organic salts such as gluconate, lactate and aspartate than in those receiving the inorganic salts. Taken together, these results indicate that ²⁶Mg is sufficiently bioavailable from the ten different Mg salts studied in the present experiment, although Mg gluconate exhibited the highest bioavailability under these experimental conditions.

In conclusion, the present study demonstrated that all ten organic and inorganic Mg salts were equally efficient in restoring blood Mg levels in plasma and red blood cells in rats. Because of the importance of the passive process, the quantity of Mg in the digestive tract is the major factor controlling the amount of Mg absorbed. However, the organic forms of Mg, in particular Mg gluconate, seem more absorbable than inorganic salts as assessed by intestinal absorption and urinary excretion.

[DukeNukem]

Hadn't seen that study. But there are other studies that indicate poor absorption of magnesium oxide, like this one:

We conclude that there is relatively poor bioavailability of magnesium oxide, but greater and equivalent bioavailability of magnesium chloride, lactate, and aspartate. Inorganic magnesium salts, depending on the preparation, may have bioavailability equivalent to organic magnesium salts.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11794633

[Hebbeh]

From my own experience, 500mg of cheap magnesium oxide will make me sleep like a baby all night without waking. I can most definately tell that I aborbed the magnesium from the quality of my sleep....definately not placebo when you're in a deep sleep and don't wake till morn. I find I can't even take magnesium oxide during the day as it will make me feel sleepy...and my daughter reports the same.

[hamishm00]

I prefer citrate over oxide.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2407766
Magnesium bioavailability from magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide.

This study compared magnesium oxide and magnesium citrate with respect to in vitro solubility and in vivo gastrointestinal absorbability. The solubility of 25 mmol magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide was examined in vitro in solutions containing varying amounts of hydrochloric acid (0-24.2 mEq) in 300 ml distilled water intended to mimic achlorhydric to peak acid secretory states. Magnesium oxide was virtually insoluble in water and only 43% soluble in simulated peak acid secretion (24.2 mEq hydrochloric acid/300 ml). Magnesium citrate had high solubility even in water (55%) and was substantially more soluble than magnesium oxide in all states of acid secretion. Reprecipitation of magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide did not occur when the filtrates from the solubility studies were titrated to pH 6 and 7 to stimulate pancreatic bicarbonate secretion. Approximately 65% of magnesium citrate was complexed as soluble magnesium citrate, whereas magnesium complexation was not present in the magnesium oxide system. Magnesium absorption from the two magnesium salts was measured in vivo in normal volunteers by assessing the rise in urinary magnesium following oral magnesium load. The increment in urinary magnesium following magnesium citrate load (25 mmol) was significantly higher than that obtained from magnesium oxide load (during 4 hours post-load, 0.22 vs 0.006 mg/mg creatinine, p less than 0.05; during second 2 hours post-load, 0.035 vs 0.008 mg/mg creatinine, p less than 0.05). Thus, magnesium citrate was more soluble and bioavailable than magnesium oxide.

[e Volution]

IMO the prescription to good bone health is subtractive not additive. Like Duke said, avoid most processed foods (grains, refined sugar/fructose, vegetable oils), avoid being sedentary, don't just do non-load bearing activities like swimming or walking, be sure to have some resistance exercise as part of your routine.


Tweeting from the annual meeting of the American Anthropological Association, anthropologist John Hawks notes that “Great apes have no reduction of bone mineral density with aging in vertebral column.” I wonder if we’re actually destined to wither away after all. (source)

[kurdishfella]

Avoid milk as it makes your bones softer. Milk is meant for babies to have soft bones so incase they fall they wont hurt themselves as much.

Maybe one day if we can remove the thing in milk that makes your bones softer. And soda. 

Edited by kurdishfella, 20 April 2021 - 03:43 PM.

[ironfistx]

Why Strontium?  Isn't that a radioactive isotope that is horrible for bones?

What other foods have phosphorus and why is it bad?