39 replies to this topic

[tizak]

Anyone have any experience with the Hard Rhino brand, I am looking to purchase Hard Rhino Piracetam.

[protoject]

seconded but on any of their racetams. Seeing insanely good prices

[tizak]

I do not have enough posts to embed links, but on ebay through a power seller, Bulksource. They are selling 2.2 Lbs of Piracetam for $55, sounds too good to be true, a red flag for me though, after doing research. Hard Rhino is out of China so the quality control may not be there.

[scouser]

I have just been looking at the price of Piracetam at cerebralhealth (they are suggested by other posters here) they price 1kg (2.2lb) at $90. That converts to £57.24

Seems a good price

[tizak]

Unfortunately, when I do a google search on "Cerebral Health", the second webpage is a FDA warning letter on supplement production practices of said company which do not inspire confidence.

[manic_racetam]

Unfortunately, when I do a google search on "Cerebral Health", the second webpage is a FDA warning letter on supplement production practices of said company which do not inspire confidence.

Any FDA inspection, followed by continued business, is always a better sign than an ebay based company that sources their products from China.

[tizak]

I do agree, I would prefer to deal with a US company than one from China, although, it does bring Cerebral Health's previous business practices into the light, with that said, I also agree that I do trust the FDA to hold the company accountable, since we are past the due date for cerebral Health to have instituted better compliance practices I must take it on faith that the company followed through and the FDA monitored their compliance.

[Big Toast]

I purchased Piracetam on amazon and the bag was labeled with hardrhino.com and muscle-empire.com. It tastes and works exactly like other piracetam powders I have purchased. Also, it was very cheap.

[Ben]

I purchased Piracetam on amazon and the bag was labeled with hardrhino.com and muscle-empire.com. It tastes and works exactly like other piracetam powders I have purchased. Also, it was very cheap.

What a scientific and intelligent way of assessing the product's quality.

[Zaul]

I purchased Piracetam on amazon and the bag was labeled with hardrhino.com and muscle-empire.com. It tastes and works exactly like other piracetam powders I have purchased. Also, it was very cheap.

What a scientific and intelligent way of assessing the product's quality.

[Ben]

I purchased Piracetam on amazon and the bag was labeled with hardrhino.com and muscle-empire.com. It tastes and works exactly like other piracetam powders I have purchased. Also, it was very cheap.

What a scientific and intelligent way of assessing the product's quality.

(COA image)

Manufacturer = Hard Rhino

Analyser = Hard Rhino

I'm sure you've spotted the problem here.

[Zaul]

No i don't, most companies that i'm aware of do the same.

[Ben]

Read and be educated.

[Zaul]

I'm well educated, thank you,

[Ben]

I'm well educated, thank you,

From your own link:

"In the scientific method, parsimony [Ben: here with respect to "an economy of explanation"] is an epistemological, metaphysical or heuristic preference, not an irrefutable principle of logic, and certainly not a scientific result."

Though, anyone who thinks that occam's razor is a clever little rubuttal to a concern about a conflict of interest is not worth wasting the time to debate with.

[Zaul]

I'm well educated, thank you,

From your own link:

"In the scientific method, parsimony [Ben: here with respect to "an economy of explanation"] is an epistemological, metaphysical or heuristic preference, not an irrefutable principle of logic, and certainly not a scientific result."

Though, anyone who thinks that occam's razor is a clever little rubuttal to a concern about a conflict of interest is not worth wasting the time to debate with.

[Big Toast]

What a scientific and intelligent way of assessing the product's quality.

Well seeing as the OP's post was:

Anyone have any experience with the Hard Rhino brand, I am looking to purchase Hard Rhino Piracetam.

I beleive that what I posted was quite intelligent.

[Ben]

What a scientific and intelligent way of assessing the product's quality.

Well seeing as the OP's post was:

Anyone have any experience with the Hard Rhino brand, I am looking to purchase Hard Rhino Piracetam.

I beleive that what I posted was quite intelligent.

You haven't understood the point I was trying to make. Re read my post. Also, you, and others like you, should follow the advice of your betters on this forum (especially with regard to pharmaceuticals.)

[Republican0fHeaven]

So can HardRhino be trusted? TheBulkSource on Amazon has a kilo of Piracetam for $63... not too far from HardRhino's $55

[tizak]

The reason for my original post has not been answered satisfactorily, consistent positive feedback regarding Hard Rhino, I think positive feedback is critical when working with what's between your ears.

I ended up purchasing Cerebral Health's Piracetam, (1 Kilo at $90 dollars), almost twice the price of the Chinese brand, but at least I know Cerebral Health, and their positive track record.

It seems difficult to get a baseline of feedback regarding Hard Rhino, and no, I do not trust the Hard Rhino label or Chinese regulators.

I went with a known, US domiciled and regulated company that is well regarded in this forum and others.

[kickasstimus]

I thought everyone already knew this and so I've never bothered to post it...

All piracetam is made in China with the rare exception of very occasional small batches made in Romania for use in EU zone pharmaceuticals. (treatment of myoclonus)

The stuff we buy in bulk from anywhere, any website, it always comes from 25kg fiber drums (metal rims on the ends, cardboard sides, you know...) originating in China.

There was a manufacturer of Piracetam in the US back in the 70's and early 80's but even then, it was only made in small batches because the "label" use (profitable in the US) was for a fairly uncommon disorder.

Since -forever ago- this stuff has been made in China. If it were made here, it would cost about 20 times as much as is does now and probably not be available in powder form.

Simple. As. That.

Dig deep enough and you can find the suppliers, in China, that sell Piracetam, Aniracetam, Primaracetam, Oxiracetam, and just about all of the other racetams, in 25kg drums.

Also, you can always have a COA done by an independent lab. The cost isn't all that high and it doesn't take long.

Think for a minute: it takes about 2 - 3 months to go through a 1kg tub of piracetam that costs between $25 and $99. How could you justify a US based $2 Billion pharmacetical plant (that's including certifications costs) based on a small and fickle customer base, using a drug off-label, that they only occasionally re-fill at 60- to 90-day intervals.

There are about three manufacturers of Piracetam that generally supply poweder in bulk form. All in China. I promise you, if you've been taking Piracetam (whether it comes from BN, Primaforce, CTS, SNS, or Cerebral Health) it has come from one or all of these three Chinese pharmaceutical companies. If it came in a tub or a pouch, it's from China. If it's in a pill, sold by a pharmacist, it came (maybe) from Romania.

Edited by kickasstimus, 03 March 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[tizak]

This is new, (and disturbing information), can you site sources, to be frank, I do not trust Chinese regulators.

Edited by tizak, 04 March 2012 - 12:21 AM.

[Ben]

http://relentlessimp...s/pir180coa.pdf

Every few months or so, Relentless releases a new COA. To me, this suggests that they are testing each batch that comes to them from their CHINESE supplier.

There's always doc simon. Go for the Piracetam AL.

[Ben]

This is new, (and disturbing information), can you site sources, to be frank, I do not trust Chinese regulators.

New, no. Disturbing, yes.

2008 Chinese milk scandal

"Just in the last month, a ghoulish fake eyeball toy made in China was recalled after it was found to be filled with kerosene"

Millions of Chinese-made toys have been recalled in the US and Australia after they were found to contain a substance linked to the date-rape drug GHB.

Officials are looking into claims that Chinese-made drywall installed in some Florida homes is emitting smelly, corrosive gases and ruining household systems such as air conditioners, the Consumer Product Safety Commission says.

Protein adulteration in the People's Republic of China

2008 Chinese heparin adulteration

2007 pet food recalls: By the end of March, veterinary organizations reported more than 100 pet deaths amongst nearly 500 cases of kidney failure,^[1] with one online database self-reporting as many as 3,600 deaths as of 11 April

More Candy From China, Tainted, Is in U.S.

Hundreds of people who suffered serious burns caused by toxic sofas are in line for compensation totalling up to £20million.
The sofas were made in China and sold by the likes of Argos, Land of Leather and Walmsleys.

Fake building material imperils Chinese railway

Mistakenly-released report reveals embarrassing extent of Chinese corruption

Corruption in the People's Republic of China


1 Google search. What's the point of using something you believe can improve your health that has, at the same, a clear chance of ruining it?

Edited by Ben, 05 March 2012 - 01:45 PM.

[kickasstimus]

I'll post links to the manufacturers as soon as I have some time. I'm looking in to having some lab testing done on Piracetam from Hard Rhino to see what comes up. If I can get it done, I'll post the results. Piracetam is easy to manufacture, hard to mess up, and has a huge profit margin at the manufacturer; there's no reason to screw with it.

That being said, I'll see what I can do.

[tizak]

Kickasstimus, COA'ing Hard Rhino would really be a benefit to the community!
If it happens, many thanks...

[manic_racetam]

I'll post links to the manufacturers as soon as I have some time. I'm looking in to having some lab testing done on Piracetam from Hard Rhino to see what comes up. If I can get it done, I'll post the results. Piracetam is easy to manufacture, hard to mess up, and has a huge profit margin at the manufacturer; there's no reason to screw with it.

That being said, I'll see what I can do.

It doesn't seem that easy. And it seems like ethyl bromoacetate and/or ethyl chloroacetate are pretty dangerous and caustic substances possibly involved in the reaction.

 piracetam us patent.pdf   134.78KB   3 downloads

Edited by manic_racetam, 08 March 2012 - 02:58 AM.

[kickasstimus]

Difficulty is relative.

I received several quotes from various labs for analysis. It's going to be about $4000 to have it thoroughly analyzed. A bargain really given the equipment involved, but since I'm not tripping over piles of money, I'm not going to have it done through a commercial lab. I live near a major university with a highly regarded chemistry department. I know a few people there and I think I can have it done for free; it will take time though.

[manic_racetam]

I thought everyone already knew this and so I've never bothered to post it...

All piracetam is made in China with the rare exception of very occasional small batches made in Romania for use in EU zone pharmaceuticals. (treatment of myoclonus)

The stuff we buy in bulk from anywhere, any website, it always comes from 25kg fiber drums (metal rims on the ends, cardboard sides, you know...) originating in China.

There was a manufacturer of Piracetam in the US back in the 70's and early 80's but even then, it was only made in small batches because the "label" use (profitable in the US) was for a fairly uncommon disorder.

Since -forever ago- this stuff has been made in China. If it were made here, it would cost about 20 times as much as is does now and probably not be available in powder form.

Simple. As. That.

Dig deep enough and you can find the suppliers, in China, that sell Piracetam, Aniracetam, Primaracetam, Oxiracetam, and just about all of the other racetams, in 25kg drums.

Also, you can always have a COA done by an independent lab. The cost isn't all that high and it doesn't take long.

Think for a minute: it takes about 2 - 3 months to go through a 1kg tub of piracetam that costs between $25 and $99. How could you justify a US based $2 Billion pharmacetical plant (that's including certifications costs) based on a small and fickle customer base, using a drug off-label, that they only occasionally re-fill at 60- to 90-day intervals.

There are about three manufacturers of Piracetam that generally supply poweder in bulk form. All in China. I promise you, if you've been taking Piracetam (whether it comes from BN, Primaforce, CTS, SNS, or Cerebral Health) it has come from one or all of these three Chinese pharmaceutical companies. If it came in a tub or a pouch, it's from China. If it's in a pill, sold by a pharmacist, it came (maybe) from Romania.

Question on this, not disagreeing with you but wondering what you think about it. According to this FDA warning letter sent to cerebral health... let me just quote it to simplify things:

1. You failed to prepare and follow a written master manufacturing record for each unique formulation and batch size of dietary supplements that you manufacture to ensure uniformity in the finished batch from batch to batch as required by 21 CFR 111.205(a). Specifically, you verbally confirmed to our investigator that your firm does not have written master manufacturing records for any of your dietary supplements.

So basically the FDA verified that CH produces some sort of supplement in their facility in Florida.... admittedly with poor production standards, but still in the US. I wonder if the piracetam is one of the supplements produced in house. I'm sure a lot of their stuff comes from China too.

[Orajel]

I bought from HardRhino, great deal, but who knows if it's safe. I'm trying to find a better source, relentless improvement is trustworthy but I cannot justify 800mg x 180 caps for 45$ jesus christ. Any word on reputable bulk suppliers?