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Softgels, powder, fat soluble nutrients, discussion

dry caps powder softgels fat soluble nutrients

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#1 Mind

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 03:02 PM


This was discussed last time around and has been an ongoing discussion over the last couple of years. The heart of the matter is cost. Will it cost too much to put the fat soluble nutrients into softgels, when most of us know to take multi's with fat. Has the cost of including a lipid carrier gone down? Please discuss.

#2 CedarWind

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 03:44 PM

If a softgel is used, could everything go into a softgel, or are some ingredients incompatible with softgels? Also, do softgels have a shorter shelf life than capsules?

#3 niner

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:25 PM

The main problem with softgels is that they have very high minimums, i.e., you can't run a small batch the size of a Vimmortal run. We would need to make on the order of hundreds of thousands of pills.

There is, however, another possibility: Licaps are capable of holding lipid solutions, and they are assembled like an ordinary hard gelcap, then sealed in some way (probably heat-sealed). Because of these characteristics, I speculate that they might have lower minimums, and might be a possibility. I don't actually know the numbers though, so we'd need to check that out.

As far as I know softgels have a shelf life that is as good as, or perhaps better than capsules.

#4 pamojja

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:26 PM

The heart of the matter is cost. Will it cost too much to put the fat soluble nutrients into softgels, when most of us know to take multi's with fat.

From my experience, for example, I need double the amount of D3 in dry capsules than in oil to reach the same 25(OH)D serum level - even taken with the fattiest meal. So that's not economical either. But to place all the water-soluble nutrients in softgels too, would be a waste.

#5 PWAIN

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 02:22 AM

Is there anyone who can find out and give an indication of how much it might add to the cost of a bottle? For instance, if t is going to cost an extra dollar a bottle, I would probably vote for it but if it is going to add $10 to a bottle, then I am much more reluctant.

#6 MrSpud

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 05:42 AM

Water soluble nutrients are less stable in softgels if they are prone to hydrolysis (especially Vitamin C, pantothenic acid and a few of the other B's) because of the moisture in the softgel shell. But the oil soluble things in a softgel are more stable if they are prone to oxidation. Like Niner said, the problem with custom formulas in softgels is the minimum quantity. Pretty much the minimum needs to be at least 300,000 softgels, preferably more like 1,000,000 before it is worthwhile for the softgel company to make it, mainly you need to run enough to fill up the long series of tumble dryers to make it cost effective. You could make a smaller run and let them run through the drying tumblers, but you'd still tie up the drying system for the same amount of time as a larger run and they'd have the same labor and overhead costs of a larger run (because you couldn't run anything else on the machine and drying tumblers until the capsules make there way through the system). If you ran a full size run that filled up the dryer it'd probably just cost about something like $5 per thousand extra to encapsulate something in a softgel. I'll check some notes I have and give a better estimate because I have the pricing of a certain single active ingredient softgel vs. hardshells lying around. Softgels can have problems too with leakers if anything fibrous is in the formula or if you try to make it water dispersible with surfactants. Also, you pretty much have to use extra oil to make any powders in the formula encapsulatable which can make the softgels large in size. Most powders need about an equal amount of oil to make an encapsulatable slurry so if you try and put 500mg of powders in you have to use about 500mg of oil to make a suspension that is liquid enough to be encapsulatable. Tablets can be even cheaper than hardshells, but they have problems too (like if something is coated or in a beadlet like beta carotene beadlets or powdered Vitamin D the compression during tabletting messes up the protective coatings and increases the degredation) .

Licaps are ok, but they have a fair amount of limitations. They aren't heat sealed, they sort of get a little bit of liquid applied to the capsule where the cap and body meet and capillary action wicks it in and sort of welds it together. But there are a fair number of leakers that have to get inspected out after putting them on trays in a vacuum chamber which makes the leakers apparent. But Licaps don't have to be dried like softgels so they can be made in smaller quantity. I believe they do tend to be a bit more expensive than softgels (ignoring the minimum quantity thing). I haven't costed any in a long time though.
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#7 Mind

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 09:19 PM

Thanks for the info MrSpud. Please let us know if you come up with any definitive dollar numbers on the different types of caps.

#8 MrSpud

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:25 AM

I double checked my notes. The cost of a single active in a softgel vs a hardshell is about $15 per 1000 capsules more for the bulk softgels. This would end up with the softgel having about an extra $6 or so retail per a 120 capsule bottle after the packaging and markups. Of course this is if you would order the minimum quanitity for the softgels or at least 300,000 softgels.

#9 niner

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:21 AM

Anthony, are you reading this? You used Licaps for the Nitro formulation, didn't you? Do you recall what the minimums were? Costs?

#10 Mind

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:36 PM

Also read here before the open discussion/voting is closed.

#11 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:52 PM

Hi,

Licaps already have quite a bit of MCT in it, so we can't put in too much.. maybe 400mg per 00 capsule, more when using a 000 capsule.

Minimum: Minimum is 100,000 capsules (however they did make it 300,000 at one point in time, then went down to 100k again.)

Cost. Compared to MRSpud, they appear to be 2-4 times more expensive per 1000 than softgels, but I would ask MrSpud to check price per softgel capsule size, and I will compare them better, when I know capsule size pricing of softgel.

I hope this helps.

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 29 February 2012 - 11:03 PM.


#12 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 11:06 PM

IMHO:

I will say that using licaps or a softgel will increase the number of capsules one takes, which might make this a deterrent to taking capsules. The biggest complaint (other than price) I had from members and non-members here was... "why 6 capsules a day?"...

So, just keep that in mind...k ?

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 29 February 2012 - 11:08 PM.


#13 MrSpud

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 04:29 PM

What I posted was the price difference btw the same product in a soft gel vs a hard shell. The absolute price of an actual soft gel would be dependent on several factors. A suspension of powders in oil in a soft gel would cost more than a blend of oils. The bigger the soft gel, the more expensive, but you might get a lower minimum quantity. For example, one soft gel manufacturer has a minimum qty based on the weight of the fill material and thus the minimum would be much smaller for a large 20 minim oblong than for a small 7.5 minim oval. A 20 oblong holds about a gram or so of oil and a 7.5 oval holds about 300 mg of an oil. FYI - the units for soft gel sizing is minims. 1 minim is one drop from an old medicine dropper and officially 1 minim is 0.061615 ml. So a 20 oblong holds 20 minims, a 7.5 oval holds 7.5 minims, etc...
Back to the topic, a soft gel for the oils and oil soluble nutrients would be an excellent dosage form and delivery system. The blend would be kept under nitrogen during processing and encapsulation and this would keep them stable. Then a hard shell for the powders, even better a separate hard shell for the minerals than the other water soluble vitamins, and the use of coated vitamins for the ones that degrade easily and/or interact would be the ultimate. But now you would have 1 soft gel plus 2 hard shells and you would either have to sell them in separate bottles or put them in packets (3 different capsules in a cellophane type pouch) and it would be more expensive. It would be the best delivery system and would be the most stable this way though. You must make a compromise somewhere if you want to make 1 uniform blend of everything in one dosage form. I'm saying this because hygroscopic ingredients tend to pull moisture into the product and hydrolysis occurs and trace metals and or the minerals themselves catalyze the reactions that occur btw the actives leading to stability problems. For example, b vitamins and antioxidants like grapeseed extract can wick in moisture from the air or from the capsule shell, then the moisture makes the vitamin c degrade into furfural which is sped up if copper is present. You end up with a bunch of dark spots that look like mold but actually are usually furfural derivatives. There are other similar interactions going on all the time.
I don't know if this information helps you decide though.
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#14 MrSpud

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 05:00 PM

Check this out if you want to see more about the interactions I'm talking about http://www.faqs.org/...p/20080199534#b
I've seen these interactions happen with tablets, hard shells and soft gels.

#15 MrSpud

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 05:11 PM

http://books.google....=html_text&cd=1


And this, if the link works

#16 MrSpud

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 06:11 PM

http://books.google....utput=html_text

Here's a really good one to consider





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