21 replies to this topic

[mortal]

Hi all,

I've recently begun investigating nootropics and found this forum; there's a great wealth of info here and what looks like a lot of noot users, so I thought I'd share this info. I want to begin a regimen of aniracetam (plus choline citrate) and have been struggling for the past few days to find a vendor who will readily share 3rd party CoAs for their products. So far I have contacted SmartPowders and "Build Your Own Supplements" (BYOS), a seller who seems to operate solely on Amazon.

BYOS promptly sent me THIS when I asked for a CoA (to be fair I did not specify third party in my request).

Nice, but not all that convincing as it seems to be a manufacturer CoA. I told them as much and said that if they could show me a 3rd party analysis by a reputable lab in the States, I would be happy to buy from them. No reply yet. SmartPowders, however, pulled an even weirder move, sending me a .docx file with their own header image:

SmartPowders' "Third Party CoA" (too large for in-line display)

A little weird. Also weird is that it took him 3 more minutes to email me the choline one, separately (was he making these on the fly or what? even so, why not send both at once?) In my initial email to them I mentioned that I had seen a topic on this forum where a Mike M of SmartPowders was originally persuaded to post the CoAs for all SP products, but that I can't find any on their site now. In fact, I accidentally found the old CoAs posted on what looks like an old unused version of the SmartPowders site. I included that link in my email, so it's not like Dennis didn't know what a legitimate 3rd party CoA looks like.

What do you all think? Has anyone here tested these substances on their own for peace of mind? A redditor tested Cerebral Health's piracetam on his own and found it to be pretty pure, but I've seen people on here groaning about their business practices. I'm almost to the point of giving up on this nootropics thing because the risk of heavy metal toxicity over time could outweigh the cognitive benefits. Has anyone found a manufacturer who is actually reliable in this regard?

[Rior]

I'm particularly interested in additional personal opinions on BYOS, as I bought oxi, ani, and pramiracetam from them very recently. In sampling them myself, they all seem to be quite decent--of course I have no capability for legitimate analysis, and this is my first time ever trying any of the above supplements.

[mortal]

lzat: Can't say anything more about BYOS myself; I ended up buying some Aniracetam from Cerebral Health, as that one Redditor's own testing still beats the absolutely nothing that the other sellers could show for their products. If you have any friends at university for chemistry / chem engineering, or better yet know someone in one of those fields, I recommend asking them to do a proton NMR spectrum test for purity. It's limited but it's better than nothing and it only takes a few minutes if they have access to the equipment already. I'm getting a friend of mine to do that for my Aniracetam, I will let you know the results.

As a side note, despite the recent thread here bashing CH for slow shipping time, I got my order pretty fast and with no issues. I'm guessing only certain products happen to slow things down.

[manic_racetam]

I'm pretty sure in general, companies based on amazon and ebay don't do third party testing at all. It cuts too far into their profit margin to do full blown analysis, which can even be understandable, depending on the types of tests involved.

I really don't think it's unreasonable to expect a company to do a simple heavy metal panel though, at the very least, and provide it to anyone who asks. Not doing at least that is really irresponsible business practice imo. Especially coming from China, where it isn't uncommon for a long-term supplier to suddenly change production methods or final product without notice.

A higher-volume seller like Smartpowders (speculation, I actually don't know if they're a high volume seller but am assuming so from my own purchases) probably is too busy doing the pump-and-dump from China to the US to have time to stop and individually test each batch. AKA, irresponsible business practices. That's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

[Rior]

I'm pretty sure in general, companies based on amazon and ebay don't do third party testing at all. It cuts too far into their profit margin to do full blown analysis, which can even be understandable, depending on the types of tests involved.

I really don't think it's unreasonable to expect a company to do a simple heavy metal panel though, at the very least, and provide it to anyone who asks. Not doing at least that is really irresponsible business practice imo. Especially coming from China, where it isn't uncommon for a long-term supplier to suddenly change production methods or final product without notice.

A higher-volume seller like Smartpowders (speculation, I actually don't know if they're a high volume seller but am assuming so from my own purchases) probably is too busy doing the pump-and-dump from China to the US to have time to stop and individually test each batch. AKA, irresponsible business practices. That's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

I guess I would consider myself relatively new to the professional side of the nootropic scene, but this has me slightly worried in regards to BYOS supplements (BYOB as they show up on amazon). I figured, considering they're listed on amazon, they've got to have a decent amount of legitimacy. Of course, supplements being supplements this isn't entirely the case unless a COA is presented with legitimate findings---but they seem to have very good ratings. Was this bad of me to assume? So far, their pramiracetam has been absolutely wonderful for me. Of course, if I'm slowly poisoning myself in one way or another that's not particularly great.

Edit:
Mortal,
I would love to have a friend in chemistry test the substances, but unfortunately I just transferred to my current school and don't know anyone who would have such access. I'm studying neuroscience, but have no particular access to anything useful. It would be nice to have someone test it as a third party.

Edited by Izat04, 09 March 2012 - 05:19 AM.

[manic_racetam]

I'm pretty sure in general, companies based on amazon and ebay don't do third party testing at all. It cuts too far into their profit margin to do full blown analysis, which can even be understandable, depending on the types of tests involved.

I really don't think it's unreasonable to expect a company to do a simple heavy metal panel though, at the very least, and provide it to anyone who asks. Not doing at least that is really irresponsible business practice imo. Especially coming from China, where it isn't uncommon for a long-term supplier to suddenly change production methods or final product without notice.

A higher-volume seller like Smartpowders (speculation, I actually don't know if they're a high volume seller but am assuming so from my own purchases) probably is too busy doing the pump-and-dump from China to the US to have time to stop and individually test each batch. AKA, irresponsible business practices. That's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

I guess I would consider myself relatively new to the professional side of the nootropic scene, but this has me slightly worried in regards to BYOS supplements (BYOB as they show up on amazon). I figured, considering they're listed on amazon, they've got to have a decent amount of legitimacy. Of course, supplements being supplements this isn't entirely the case unless a COA is presented with legitimate findings---but they seem to have very good ratings. Was this bad of me to assume? So far, their pramiracetam has been absolutely wonderful for me. Of course, if I'm slowly poisoning myself in one way or another that's not particularly great.

The safety side of things is something I sometimes worry about, especially since I'm also interested in extending my life as long as possible. But that's something that sometimes takes a back-seat to treating my various psychological ailments (namely ADHD and depression) which can have a seriously detrimental effect on my well-being.

I've ordered from BYOB and taken their supplements, and I've also been taking these kinds of substances from similar companies for over a year now. I've noticed nothing but health improvements so far but I've also made a lot of lifestyle changes that have been a major benefit. I haven't gotten heavy metal testing or even kidney or liver panels, which would be a good idea actually.

But from what it looks like BYOB/S has yet to be inspected by the FDA. Smartpowders and Cerebral Health have both been inspected int the past and are still in business. It seems like cerebral health is inspected on a more frequent basis, check the FDA website and search for the company to find the warning letters.

Now, you might think that a warning letter from the FDA is a bad thing. In my opinion it is exactly contrary to that. An FDA letter and continued business is a sign that compliance was likely met, which is crazy to me that someone can run a business at all while meeting FDA manufacturing process requirements.

Anyway, we'll see what happens when BYOB is finally inspected. If you create a supplement company of considerable size it's an inevitability that you will eventually be inspected by the FDA.

But in general I feel ok about taking things that are commonly produced, like piracetam, pramiracetam, aniracetam and oxiracetam. When we start getting into nefiracetam, noopept and other less common or exotic compounds that are produced to a much lesser extent, then I worry more and would expect more verification from a company selling it.

I ordered 100g of Noopept from China for example and it turned out to smell strongly of solvents, had a lower melting point than other noopept, and had a much lesser effect than the product I got from cerebral health. I tested it for heavy metals and it was negative for that at least but as far as the impurities involved... I'm not about to ingest it.

That's my opinion at least.

[psychenaut]

Hi all,

...I want to begin a regimen of aniracetam (plus choline citrate) and have been struggling for the past few days to find a vendor who will readily share 3rd party CoAs for their products.

...I'm almost to the point of giving up on this nootropics thing because the risk of heavy metal toxicity over time could outweigh the cognitive benefits. Has anyone found a manufacturer who is actually reliable in this regard?

Relentless Improvement goes from multi-year ImmInst (now Longecity) sponsor to obscurity this quickly? I'm hurt.

I've always (since 2005) invested in publicly accessible 3rd party CoA's for my finished product: http://relentlessimprovement.com/learn

• Price
• Quality
• Service

Choose two. Some things never change.

Cheers-
Pete
(rarely am I on the forums, if anyone wants to reach me, I'm not hard to find )

Edited by psychenaut, 04 April 2012 - 02:33 AM.

[karma02]

@psychonaut - Your prices are too damn high!

[mortal]

@psychonaut - Your prices are too damn high!

I agree. Just for the record, I ended up ordering from Cerebral Health. Didn't have any problems with the order, and the aniracetam I got is working excellently. Great substance! Racetams should have replaced all those amphetamine-type 'ADHD'-treatment drugs long ago, IMO.

EDIT: It's worth noting that while I respect higher prices for the added cost of getting everything lab tested, you could at least sell bulk powder rather than capsules as an option for those who would rather scale & cap it themselves -- the capping and bottling process alone must create a decent amount of overhead.

Edited by mortal, 18 April 2012 - 04:43 AM.

[karma02]

@psychonaut - Your prices are too damn high!

I agree. Just for the record, I ended up ordering from Cerebral Health. Didn't have any problems with the order, and the aniracetam I got is working excellently. Great substance! Racetams should have replaced all those amphetamine-type 'ADHD'-treatment drugs long ago, IMO.

EDIT: It's worth noting that while I respect higher prices for the added cost of getting everything lab tested, you could at least sell bulk powder rather than capsules as an option for those who would rather scale & cap it themselves -- the capping and bottling process alone must create a decent amount of overhead.

Recently got showed this to me : https://www.smartpow...-180-grams.aspx

And tell us how your experience with ani is going please. I can't seem to get it to work for me yet to a 100%.

[mortal]

Recently got showed this to me : https://www.smartpow...-180-grams.aspx

And tell us how your experience with ani is going please. I can't seem to get it to work for me yet to a 100%.

Aww, that's adorable. They screen-capped their MS Word "CoA" and put it on the site.

As for the aniracetam, I started with 750mg twice a day, along with ~325mg of choline citrate. As I can recall, the first day I felt 'something,' but it was subtle, & didn't really manifest as heightened focus or cognitive power. The second day, however, I took my afternoon dose and was biking to class when I was hit with utter marvel at how MUCH I was perceiving -- it was like my sensory acuity was through the roof. Rather than just focusing on traffic & the ground in front of me I was observing people on sidewalks, the light reflecting off of buildings in the background, cars -- all while navigating the streets. The third day of this 750mg regimen, I woke up very early for an 8 AM exam, took my dose (after perhaps only 5 hours of sleep) and upon completing the test I was so sleepy I went back home and slept for 3 hours. I later read on Wiki that somnolence can be a (transient) side effect. I had also been experiencing some sleepiness on the comedown from each prior dose. I stopped taking it for spring break, and when I started again I decided to back down to 500mg twice daily. This works much, much better -- less really is more with this stuff, so try to find the lowest effective dose. Also remember you HAVE to take it with a fat source as it is fat-soluble.

In my experience, ani combines beautifully with caffeine, though I wouldn't recommend more than one strong cup of coffee or the equivalent, and I think waiting ~30 minutes after dosing works best. Someone else commented that nicotine does NOT combine favorably -- I tried this and I must agree. A few drags of a cigarette feels like a kick in the brain, not quite the lightheadedness of a nicotine buzz but uniquely bad. Note that I am NOT a smoker & only flirt with tobacco on occasion.

[synapse]

But from what it looks like BYOB/S has yet to be inspected by the FDA. Smartpowders and Cerebral Health have both been inspected int the past and are still in business. It seems like cerebral health is inspected on a more frequent basis, check the FDA website and search for the company to find the warning letters.

Now, you might think that a warning letter from the FDA is a bad thing. In my opinion it is exactly contrary to that. An FDA letter and continued business is a sign that compliance was likely met, which is crazy to me that someone can run a business at all while meeting FDA manufacturing process requirements.

We are actually in the middle of our 2nd FDA inspection this week at Cerebral Health and things have been going well. We made some changes over the past year that has really helped and it looks like the FDA will be issuing a new letter in the near future detailing a few of our changes.

While FDA inspections can be nerve-racking, I personally do feel that they keep standards high.

[Peak]

I have been having a "dialogue" with Nathan at Build Your Own Blend (Health Supplement Wholesalers). I asked about his Noopept, that incidentally has no "characteristic odor", though several Chinese vendors mention it. It's bitter and you can taste a slight solvent residue. OK, someone's mistaken or the mushroomy-smelling stuff is lower purity Noopept? I have asked about the smell issue on this forum (Nootropic Stacks) and nobody has replied.

I asked Nathan what made him believe it was indeed Noopept. He sent me a Chinese COA that shows a manufacture date of April 24th 2012, and a test date of April 23rd 2013 (!?!) When I pointed this time travel out, and asked about independent testing, he said:

"We have independent lab testing done on all of our products. The COA's come from the manufacturers but again, we send our products out for 3rd party testing."

I requested but have yet to receive any 3rd party data. I suggested he run a simple melting point on his batches. He offered to refund my purchase price. I don't believe they do any such testing, and the fake date on the COA is disturbing. It's not a typo in the year, as April 23rd 2012 would be BEFORE manufacturing date.

With a substance like Noopept, that's consumed at the 10-30 mg level, 2% impurties don't amount to much. That's the only one that I will risk. But for something like Piracetam, with several grams often consumed daily, look out! If anyone remembers the Diethylene Glycol in glycerin poisonings and how the Chinese govt. showed no interest even after hundreds of people had died world-wide, it takes care of any expectation of "inspections" or trustworthiness. It's entirely a "buyer beware" situation. Without some stateside minimal testing, at least a melting point, this is a high risk situation.

I don't believe American vendors would knowingly sell poison. But if Nathan's behavior is typical, they don't want to be bothered with "complicated issues" that interfere with cash flow, and they are willing to lie about how much testing they do.

Edited by Peak, 10 June 2012 - 05:03 AM.

[Peak]

The saga continues. Now he tells me they have a "policy" of not releasing third party test data "because several of our competitors have used our results as proof of authenticity on their Amazon and eBay stores." Huh?

Then he "assures" me that it "is indeed Noopept and safe to consume".

Any thoughts? Anyone?

[Justin Garrett Hill]

my thought is that maybe as a Noortropic community we should form some form of Coop like a groupon or something. It is easy enough to source these chemicals through Alibaba and buy in bulk, we could form a wesbite, and when enough people "buy in on a product" we buy in bulk, get the third party testing....If the people doing the work were not out to make a profit then maybe we could make the prices rock bottom and have top quality.

[Limburger]

You know, Justin, that idea is not half bad. I wonder if we could get ScienceGuy involved in the analytic side of things?

[rollo]

I have been having a "dialogue" with Nathan at Build Your Own Blend (Health Supplement Wholesalers). I asked about his Noopept, that incidentally has no "characteristic odor", though several Chinese vendors mention it. It's bitter and you can taste a slight solvent residue. OK, someone's mistaken or the mushroomy-smelling stuff is lower purity Noopept? I have asked about the smell issue on this forum (Nootropic Stacks) and nobody has replied.

I asked Nathan what made him believe it was indeed Noopept. He sent me a Chinese COA that shows a manufacture date of April 24th 2012, and a test date of April 23rd 2013 (!?!) When I pointed this time travel out, and asked about independent testing, he said:

"We have independent lab testing done on all of our products. The COA's come from the manufacturers but again, we send our products out for 3rd party testing."

I requested but have yet to receive any 3rd party data. I suggested he run a simple melting point on his batches. He offered to refund my purchase price. I don't believe they do any such testing, and the fake date on the COA is disturbing. It's not a typo in the year, as April 23rd 2012 would be BEFORE manufacturing date.

With a substance like Noopept, that's consumed at the 10-30 mg level, 2% impurties don't amount to much. That's the only one that I will risk. But for something like Piracetam, with several grams often consumed daily, look out! If anyone remembers the Diethylene Glycol in glycerin poisonings and how the Chinese govt. showed no interest even after hundreds of people had died world-wide, it takes care of any expectation of "inspections" or trustworthiness. It's entirely a "buyer beware" situation. Without some stateside minimal testing, at least a melting point, this is a high risk situation.

I don't believe American vendors would knowingly sell poison. But if Nathan's behavior is typical, they don't want to be bothered with "complicated issues" that interfere with cash flow, and they are willing to lie about how much testing they do.

I laugh a little when I hear/read such naive things.

[mortal]

my thought is that maybe as a Noortropic community we should form some form of Coop like a groupon or something. It is easy enough to source these chemicals through Alibaba and buy in bulk, we could form a wesbite, and when enough people "buy in on a product" we buy in bulk, get the third party testing....If the people doing the work were not out to make a profit then maybe we could make the prices rock bottom and have top quality.

Bringing this thread back from the dead again, but I rather like this idea. Any thoughts on the best way to organize this? Also, we'd need to figure out what our recourse would be if a batch of something was found (by our 3rd party testing) to be unacceptably impure. Whatever seller we bought from would have to be informed that this would be happening. That alone might help narrow down to a less unscrupulous supplier.

[JohnnyP]

I am under the impression that "Build Your Own Supplements" is the same company as Health Supplement Wholesalers. So I am not sure if this warrants any value I think it's promising but I could just be hopeful
http://www.reddit.co...purity_testing/

[eclipsed]

Byob is hsw and also 2 other companies, I have done business with all of them, sometimes good and sometimes bad. They have 2 companies on ebay and 2 on amazon.

[Gr888Scott]

My question is this: What is the proof behind a COA? Yeah I saw the reddit on HSW, and it made me think "Okay maybe they don't add filler to their powders" and at those prices I was considering getting some of their supplements, but I know somebody who got Noopept from HSW and said it didn't have any of the physical characteristics of Noopept. Same deal as was said above, their rep emailed that "they have a 3rd party analysis done etc" but that's all.
So then I see in this thread Smartpowders with this cute little clean looking "COA" and again I ask: "Where is the solid impartial, unbiased proof from any of these suppliers"
Anybody? Can anybody point to a place that is darn near 100% verified quality, or are we all just playing "crapshoot" in getting supplements?

[eclipsed]

there isnt any proof unless a company wants to put the money up to have it tested. This is rarely done. Sometimes when you order a product, the supplier might ship a COA with the order. Many times sellers just have templates for everything that they sell and just put the new info. Long story short, barring any outsourced testing, You get what you get.