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Nootropics help


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#1 chkben

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 12:28 PM


Hi friends,

I'm a total newbie to nootropics, and would sincerely hope to seek advice from experienced users here.

I have the following:

1. Pregnenolone (50caps x 100mg)
2. Bio-Pro (ATP and NADH x 2mg each) on a sublingual spray.
3. Acetyl-L-Carnitine Powder x 75g
4. Piracetam Powder x 700g
5. Alpha-GPC Powder x 50g
6. Milk Thistle Powder (80%) x 125g

How should I combining these? What not to take with what?

I have a 0.1g scale machine, and a "0" capping machine..please help and thanks a million!

#2 scottl

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 02:34 PM

How old are you?

What are your goals?

What (if any) other supps are you taking?

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#3 chkben

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 03:02 PM

How old are you?

What are your goals?

What (if any) other supps are you taking?


Opps...forgot about those information. [tung]

I'm 30 years old, Asian Chinese.

My goals? Mainly to defeat the following:

1. Weakening liver, have a family history of Hep. B (explains the milk thistle)
2. Rheumatoid Arthritis, swollen finger and knee joints... (explains the Pregnenolone?)
3. Fatigue, just can't get enuff rest even wif 8 hours rest, just feel lazy and no mood for anything durng the day (explains the ALCAR?)
4. Tendency to drift off while trying to concentrate on something...I have this problem of not being able to concentrate on one task for an extended period of time.. :( (Hopefully the A-GPC and PIR will help?)
5. Anti-aging, maybe... ;)

Guess now it's just what dosage I should be taking....hoping to get advice from people whom had used these before... ;) Thanks!

I'm also currently taking,

1. Lecithin 1200mg + Choline 750mg (combined in a capsule) x 2 per day.
2. Vitamin C (Ester-C by GNC) 1g x 3 per day.
3. Acidophilus, in the morning before anything.
4. Liquid Chlorophyll, 1 tsp once a day.
5. Manuka Honey, 1 tsp twice a day.
6. Melatonin, 3mg before sleeping.

#4 scottl

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 03:48 PM

Somehow this feels funny coming from a caucasian physician (MD), but I think you need to see an acupuncturist...LOL are you open to that? Word of mouth recomendation is best....I have a tiny hunch that 5 element theory might be best, but this is just a hunch.

1-3 are best (THIS ADVICE IS SPECIFIC TO YOU IMHO) addressed with acupunture/herbs.

Supplements can certainly be helpful and I'll post...if my schedule allows later today.

#5 scottl

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 03:51 PM

Oh and:

Hep. B

is an infectious disease...either you have it, or you do not (which does not mean that you do not have...liver weakness...in fact given the Rheumatoid Arthritis it is likely you do--at least the liver energ meridian).

#6 chkben

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 03:59 PM

Somehow this feels funny coming from a caucasian physician (MD), but I think you need to see an acupuncturist...LOL are you open to that?  Word of mouth recomendation is best....I have a tiny hunch that 5 element theory might be best, but this is just a hunch.

1-3 are best (THIS ADVICE IS SPECIFIC TO YOU IMHO) addressed with acupunture/herbs.

Supplements can certainly be helpful and I'll post...if my schedule allows later today.


Heh...nice. Thought of seeking a chinese physician...but I remembered trying last time, but after a few prescriptions of bitter herbs, etc...things doesn't improve much... :( That's why back to western remedies ...

Well, I haven't tried Accupunture before...did foot reflexology though, nice feeling and helped a bit, and the reflexologist did say that my liver is weak and I should be going there more often... heh...

The above deals mainly with my Arthritis ... as for fatigue, not much of the chinese herbs had helped much (like ginseng, etc).

#7 chkben

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 04:01 PM

Oh and:

Hep. B

is an infectious disease...either you have it, or you do not (which does not mean that you do not have...liver weakness...in fact given the Rheumatoid Arthritis it is likely you do--at least the liver energ meridian).


I did a test 1 yr ago...with my GP regarding Rheumatoid Arthritis, and the blood test comes back negative. As for Hep B, supposed to be negative as well. That's why my GP recommended me a Hep B & C shot...but somehow, I felt that my liver aren't as healthy as it's supposed to be at my age...as I always feel fatigue, aches near the liver area... :(

#8 REGIMEN

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 11:49 PM

If you could still trust herbs after your previous experience, I would sincerely look into Stinging Nettle *Leaf* for your rheumatoid arthritis-like pain. Here's a good source for information on uses of it:

http://www.herbalgra...sione/he092.asp

Also, I've had some liver based ailments that clear up when I restrict bad things from my diet, stay regular, and do some liver detoxification. I'm not the doctor here, scottl is, and we've all heard the healthy eating mantra by now, but here it is: no refined or processed items like sugar, bleached flour, meat to necessary portions, more fruit and vegetables, eat much smaller portions but eat more times a day, etc. I'll leave that there. Keep regular! No overeating! Constipation can be the absolute worst thing as it keeps excrement in your bowels longer than it should be and thus keeps the toxins(I'm still on 'simple terms' with these things) in a position to continue contaminating your blood and taxing your liver and kidneys. Eat leafy, green, and/or moist vegetables and consider a fiber source. Also, the brand of liver detoxifying tea I take is from here:

http://www.totalheal...roduct_id=OGD-8
(I can list the ingredients for you as they aren't on the site,,just ask)

I take this, as does my mother, and I will have to say we both feel refreshed and energized after a large cup with a bit of lemon once a week(the good regularizing diet is KEY for this since it will just float on top of your overstuffed bowels if that is a problem).

This is just advice from someone who has had to find ways outside of seeing an expensive doctor for "western remedies". I used to take Peptodismal for stomach pain but realized it only prolonged the state that caused my digestive pain. Triphala all the way, now!

Edited by liplex, 01 March 2005 - 12:51 AM.


#9 scottl

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 01:31 AM

PLEASE NOTE THAT NOTHING I SAY HERE SHOULD BE CONSTITUTED AS THE PRACTICE OF MEDICINE.

OK. now.

1. Are you taking any b vitamin/multiple?

2. Not my area of expertise, but as I understand it exercise e.g. regular aerobic exercise prevents...I believe it is called stagnation of liver chi. This is only a minimal part of your liver issue if it contributes at all. The idea however is that since your liver is already....not quite right it would be good prevent adding any additional burden to it.

Aerobic exercise has lots of other advantages. start slowly and work up. THis will likely also help your fatigue and concentration i suspect.

3. I'll be happy to make other recommendations but I would strongly advise you to consider trying to find a competent TCM (raditional chinese medicine) doc. Just because you found one chinese doc who was not optimal, doesn't mean they all are. Ideally you'd want some old chinese man/women who'd been practicing forever. THe reason is that they can come closer to adressing the cause then....other supps.

4. Make sure to drink sufficient liquids during the day. How much? You urine should be mostly odorless and colorless most of the time (some supplements will affect urine color for a time). 8 X 8 ounce glasses in likely not enough.

5. Diet? what is your diet like? Are you getting enough protein? WHat do you eat in a typical day?

6. Are you normally hot? cold?

7. There are a number of anti-inflammatory supps that can be used e.g. fish oil, GLA, curcumin which can aggrivate..heat issues. For example curcumin aggrivates...heat issues I have, and I can't take it (I have very different situation). This is another reason I recomment a chinese doc. Again, I"m not sure, but i suspect a 5 elemetn acupuncturist may be a really goodway to go.

#10 scottl

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 01:32 AM

Ignore typos above.

#11 lynx

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 04:02 AM

I think that the scientifically verified parts of any herbal system need to be given recognition for what they do, however in this day and age we have much more sophisticated supplements/diagnostic techniques available to address liver problems than TCM.

For example, a common cause of toxin accumulation/liver problems/lack of energy is an imbalance between Phase I and Phase II detoxification enzymes. Over thirty P450 enzymes metabolize xenobiotic and enogenous toxins at varying rates depending on Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms, SNPs. Then there are dozens of Phase II enzymes coded by other genes subject to SNPs that render them weak, strong or in between for heterozygotes.

If for example you have a fast form of CYP2E1, which metabolizes acetominophen, chlorzoxazone, ethanol, enflurane, halothane and bioactivates dietary nitrosamines by making them water soluble and happen to have a weak form of one of the glutathione SNPs then you can end up with liver problems. This is because P450s make fat soluble molecules water soluble which are then conjugated by Glutathione or further metabolized by other Phase II enzymes, like NQO. So, if you take a relatively inert molecule like nitrosamine, transform it via P450, couple that with a weak glutathione form, whammo you get toxicity.

Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2000 Jun;9(6):551-6. Related Articles, Links 

 
Impact of genetic polymorphisms in cytochrome P450 2E1 and glutathione S-transferases M1, T1, and P1 on susceptibility to esophageal cancer among high-risk individuals in China.

Tan W, Song N, Wang GQ, Liu Q, Tang HJ, Kadlubar FF, Lin DX.

Department of Chemical Etiology and Carcinogenesis, Cancer Institute, Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences and Beijing Union Medical College.

Esophageal cancer, which is prevalent in China, is believed to be induced by environmental carcinogens such as nitrosamines and other agents. The disproportionate geographical distribution of this cancer among individuals suggests a role for gene-environment interactions in developing the disease. We have shown in our preliminary study that a genetic polymorphism in cytochrome P450 2E1 (CYP2E1) that is known to activate nitrosamines may be a susceptibility factor involved in the early events leading to the development of esophageal cancer (Lin et al., Cancer Epidemiol. Biomark. Prev., 7: 1013-1018, 1998). This relatively larger study was conducted to compare the results with our previous findings. One hundred and fifty cases with esophageal cancer, 146 cases with esophageal dysplasia, and 150 normal controls were residents of Linxian, China, a high-risk area. Genomic DNA samples were assayed for restriction fragment length polymorphisms in the CYP2E1 and GSTP1 loci by PCR amplification followed by digestion with RsaI and Alw26I, respectively. Deletion of the GSTM1 and GSTT1 genes was detected by multiplex PCR. The distribution of CYP2E1 c1/c1 allele frequency was found to be significantly different between controls (44.0%) and cases with cancer (71.3%) or cases with dysplasia (70.6%; P < 0.0001). Individuals having the c1/c1 genotype were at a 3.1-fold [95% confidence interval (CI), 2.4-3.9] increased risk of developing dysplasia and a 3.2-fold (95% CI, 2.5-4.1) increased risk of developing squamous cell carcinoma of the esophagus. Although polymorphisms in the GSTT1 and GSTP1 were not significantly different between cases with cancer or cases with dysplasia and controls, the frequency of the GSTM1 non-null (+/+ and +/0) genotypes appeared to be overrepresented in cases with cancer compared with controls (odds ratio, 2.3; 95% CI, 1.8-3.0). Furthermore, a joint effect of the CYP2E1 c1/c1 genotype and GSTM1 non-null genotype on the cancer risk was observed, showing an odds ratio of 8.5 (95% CI, 3.7-19.9). These results demonstrate that CYP2E1 and perhaps GSTM1 are genetic determinants in the development of squamous cell carcinoma of the esophagus.

PMID: 10868687 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


For me personally, I know that Ritalin makes me very susceptible to hangovers and drunkenness because it inhibits CYP2E1.

#12 scottl

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 04:20 AM

Lynx,

I disagree...but for her benefit exactly what are you suggesting she do?

#13 scottl

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 04:28 AM

To clarfiy:

The conventional western medicine paradigm does not include...."mental/emotional"...stuff. Because of this it can never adress some things. For example an on line person I encountered had gastrointestinal problems. I told them that I could suggest some things which might help minimally, but the problem was the person's job. Until they changed that, there was probably not much to be done. Person eventually changed jobs, and the gastrintestinal symptoms disappeared.

I do not know chkben, but with liver issues and rheumatoid arthritis, mental/emotional..stuff is very likely.

medicine is an art...

#14 REGIMEN

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 05:54 AM

"...however in this day and age we have much more sophisticated supplements/diagnostic techniques available to address liver problems than TCM"
-lynx

As far as the supplements, what would those include? It's still relatively new to me to be taking any kind of supplementation and could always appreciate a refinement of therapies and broadening of choices.

#15 chkben

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 07:21 AM

Opps...I'm overwhelmed by the scientific explanations and advice.. ;)

Errm, I'm currently taking herbal measures to cleanse my system regularly ... but it just started about 1 month ago, it's taking effect, though I think it takes a longer time to regulate my system to normal.... ;)

Thanks guys...oh, btw, I'm a chinese male... ;)

#16 lynx

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 03:09 PM

For liver NAC, Lipoic Acid, Vitamin C, Alpha GPC, ALCAR, Sesathin, MethyCobalamin, SAMe-- Good fats fish oil, olive oil.

As a little background info, do you get a flushing response to drinking alcohol?

If yes, it likely that you don't have very strong form of liver mitochondrial aldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH2–2), consequently don't metabolize aldehyde's very well, and ethanol is not the only source of aldehyde's in our body and we each produce about 50 grams of ethanol naturally a day.

#17 chkben

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 03:13 PM

For liver NAC, Lipoic Acid, Vitamin C, Alpha GPC, ALCAR, Sesathin, MethyCobalamin, SAMe-- Good fats fish oil, olive oil.

As a little background info, do you get a flushing response to drinking alcohol?

If yes, it likely that you don't have very strong form of liver mitochondrial aldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH2–2), consequently don't metabolize aldehyde's very well, and ethanol is not the only source of aldehyde's in our body and we each produce about 50 grams of ethanol naturally a day.


Hi Lynx,

Thanks for the liver advice... ;) I don't take alcohol...since I smoke... [tung]

I'm currently only taking Vit. C about 3g to boost my immune system and for energy...my A-GPC and ALCAR has yet arrive... heh..

#18 lynx

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 04:16 PM

But if you did drink, do you get a flushing response?

#19 chkben

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 07:15 AM

But if you did drink, do you get a flushing response?


Yup, if I drink, just a little more than 2 small sips, I will start flushing red. :(

If yes, it likely that you don't have very strong form of liver mitochondrial aldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH2–2), consequently don't metabolize aldehyde's very well, and ethanol is not the only source of aldehyde's in our body and we each produce about 50 grams of ethanol naturally a day.


Hmm, pardon me but how does that affect me? (Sorry, I'm not medically inclined and don't really understand what u meant by the above)...

Cheers! ;)

#20 lynx

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 02:07 AM

Hmm, pardon me but how does that affect me?  (Sorry, I'm not medically inclined and don't really understand what u meant by the above)...

Cheers!  :)

Well, since you are concerned about liver health, the fact that you have a weak form of Aldehyde dehyrogenase means that things that boost glutathione like NAC, Lipoic Acid, and cruciferous vegetables(broccoli, cauliflower,etc) would help your body to remove the aldehyde's from the alcohol you produce naturally everyday and from other reactions. Also, SAMe is very good for liver detox as is Calcium D-glucarate.

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#21 chkben

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 02:30 AM

Hmm, pardon me but how does that affect me?  (Sorry, I'm not medically inclined and don't really understand what u meant by the above)...

Cheers!  :)

Well, since you are concerned about liver health, the fact that you have a weak form of Aldehyde dehyrogenase means that things that boost glutathione like NAC, Lipoic Acid, and cruciferous vegetables(broccoli, cauliflower,etc) would help your body to remove the aldehyde's from the alcohol you produce naturally everyday and from other reactions. Also, SAMe is very good for liver detox as is Calcium D-glucarate.


Thanks...think I will start considering adding ALA and SAMe to my regime. Anyhow, is Milk Thistle beneficial as well?




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