28 replies to this topic

[dubbyah]

Here it is:


1000 mg Choline
1000 mg L-Arginine AKG
20 mg Vinpocetine
100 mg DMAE
100 mcg Huperzine A
1000 mg L-Tyrosine
800 mg Piracetam


----------------

Or as an alternate this one
Alpha-GPC 1000 mg
L-Tyrosine 1000 mg
L-Arginine AKG 1000 mg
Acetyl-L-Carnitine 1000 mg
Hydergine 10 mg
DMAE 400 mg
Picamilon 100 mg
Phosphatidylserine 300 mg


And even a third one
Acetyl L-Carnitine 500 mg
Choline 500 mg
Phosphatidylserine 200 mg
5-Htp 100 mg
Vinpocetine 20 mg
DHA 100 mg
DMAE 400 mg
Huperzine A 100 mcg

Edited by dubbyah, 02 August 2007 - 04:40 AM.

[silas]

Hi dubbya.
I can only offer my personal experience. No worries though. The vets will weigh in with an informed opinion soon enough.
Until they do...
About two years ago I was diagnosed with ADD and prescribed adderall. The drug certainly helped but it was not a complete cure.
After doing some reading on nootropics I decided on piracetam and choline. The latter is really to supplement the piracetam and interchangeable with a few other substances. There are several threads here explaining the specifics. But the short version is that it's cheap where others can be more expensive (and possibly more effective?).
In the six months I've been on it, I've found this combination very helpful with clarity of thought and concentration. All for around $20 a month.
Although it's an imperfect indicator, I saw a significant improvement in my LSAT score. I'm not claiming greater intelligence. The benefit came near the end of the test where I'd always experienced fatigue and difficulty concentrating.
As an aside, get rid of your straterra. It's an antidepressant with little or no bases for its use in ADHD. Difficulty concentrating can be a symptom of depression, it's easy to see how they made the leap. But I've never met anyone who's had a good thing to say about it. The stimulants have their own stigma but the effects are less ambiguous.
Good luck with your sitch.

[elevated]

I feel you as well...........Clouded thoughts are very disruptive to a student especially. I would advise you to get help from a neurologist via your family doctor. This is what my doctor did for me, he gave me contact info to a Neurologist, and I am considering going for it.

Suffering in college with poor grades when you know you have the tenacity to do better than everyone else, can be very depressing. Just realize you arent alone, people like me and many others as well are gogin through the same thing. So keep up the desire to fix whats wrong, because thats how each of use gets ahead in life, by relaizing our pitfalls and correcting them through medical help or any help that may benefit.

Any physiological/psychological issue can be a genetic problem, so its quite possible to have been born with the affliction of ADD, so its nothing to be ashamed of.......Just like the millions of people suffering from depression,it really is a biological problem, where in most cases, its been passed from generation to generation. Depression is in my family, so I know I suffer form it at times. And I can see this in myself by the types of supplements I put in my body that make me more content.

I just popped 6 HEAT caps and 2 grams of TMG and my mood went from (on a scale of 1-10) a consistent calm 5 to a energized agressively determined 10..

So we each(everyone) know ourselves better than anyone else, and must look out for our own selves, because even family may not help at times, especially when a person really needs it......

Denying problems which most people do, only leads to a life of destruction....and for some, suicide. Most manics for instance, never get the help they need, and simply end up killing themselves, because of their own ego, not wanting to get help. Loss of purpose through depression, can take a person to that edge of where everything seems so dim...

The thing I like about these online forums, is that im meeting people who are admiting that they have a problem, and I myself can admit I have a problem, and work towards a better life. Avant Labs,Imminst, conversionboard, are all great motivators in times of trouble..

Enough of my love ranting,HAHA, but we all need each other, (ok I did have 5 grams af GABA earlier so I think im in a strange mood of peace)

This was long, but I feel relevant..

[dubbyah]

Minutified gauge

Edited by dubbyah, 02 August 2007 - 04:41 AM.

[elevated]

It sounds like you could use something like Provigil to help with the tiredeness. I used Adrafinil to help me much last semester, and a few times this semester. I am lucky in that I have changed my class schedule this semester so I can sleep in later some days.

Today for instance, I woke up at 9:30a.m. and that makes me feel a HECK of alot better than the days I have to get up at 4a.m. Lack of sleep can cause a person to get depressed, and I know that is what has caused some of my depressive symptoms. Likewise though, the desire to sleep alot can be a sign of depression, so its interesting how things work in the body.

Each of those you mention would be fine to use. The only thing with Piracetam is that some people, including myself have noticed that it can worsen depression, BUT mostly due to the lack of Choline. So if you take Choline with the Piracetam, you should be fine. The ALCAR, I try to take 4 grams a day divided into 2 gram doses.

Huperzine A is very interesting to me. I always seem to feel very stimulated in a good way, whenever taking Hup A. It can get expensive if taken in high doses, so 50-100mcg is probally the best bet for maintaining a low cost Hup A supply.

Ive used the Life Extension formula, sold at IHERB.com . They have very fast shipping for a cheap cost.

[dubbyah]

Cool. I'm going to order

Choline - a definite
Piracetam - a definite, or are there any alternative etams?
ALCAR - a definite
Huperzine A - My local GNC has this one, so i'm gonna pick it up

Here are the ones im questionable about


Chocamine ?????? - Someone said this gave you energy and I really want energy
DMAE ????? - Need help whether getting that or not
Vinpocetine - ??????? Should I get this?
L-Arginine AKG ??????????? Should I get this?
L-Tyrosine ????? Should I get this
Fish Oil ?????? What about this
Any others?



Thanks sooo much. This is an enormous step for me and im on the last step, just need to see whether or not I need those 5 ones I mentioned which I dont know about.

[ejdavis1]

Fish oil and L-tyrosine definitely if you have ADHD. Also take a good B vitamin supplement.

[dubbyah]

Choline - a definite
Piracetam - a definite, or are there any alternative etams?
ALCAR - a definite
Huperzine A - My local GNC has this one, so i'm gonna pick it up
L-Tyrosine
Fish oil


Great. Does DMAE mix with fish oil? Will that be redundant? Is DHEA very similar to DMAE? Do you think that stack is optimal for ADHD or should I add in DMAE.

[wraith]

I've found antidepressants can induce in me a kind of 'brain fog'. I'm not saying to go off the meds since they can be life-saving. But it can be one of the more unpleasant side-effects. I'm wondering if combining a supplement/set of supplements can help offset this.

[silas]

dubbya- I picked up lecithin this week from GNC, in place of my usual choline.
A bit early to claim any preference but there are threads on this board that attest to as much. They both serve the same purpose but lecithin is supposedly more effective.
$7.00 for 100x500mg caps.
Also, piracetam is generally recommended as the place to start with 'racetams. I don't have any experience with others and see no reason the change at this point. It's been great.
You said energy was your concern. At the risk of getting scolded for saying so, you're already diagnosed. You could easily get a scrip for adderall. This seems to be an obvious solution. I've taken it for the past year and have had an overwhelmingly positive experience. Grades have improved (I'm a senior in college) as well as general productivity. My dose is relatively small(10mg 3/day) and has not increased.
Where studies are concerned, you may want to look into vasopressin aka desmopressin aka minirin. It's a nasal spray that contains a hormone related to memory formation. A bit expensive but it's supposed to work wonders for retention and memory. Anti-aging.com recommends it to business peeps to take before a seminar, or in my case a lecture or cramming for a test. I just ordered some.

wraith- ditto on the brain fog. I was put on a tricyclic a few years back that almost wrecked a semester for me. I kept complaining to the doc about memory problems and fatigue. She basically blew me off. The problems ceased as soon as I quit the 'scrip.

[wraith]

But what did you wind up doing for the depression, silas?

[silas]

Initially I was given an Rx for adderall, primarily to counter the side effects of the tricyclic. For about 4 months I was taking both. After a year of the anti-depressant I decided it was time to get off it but chose to stick with the adderall.
Most people only stay on anti-d's for about six months, after which it's hoped there's been a permanent change in the chem balance.
I'm not sure I buy into this theory but then the whole issue is so subjective. Unless you're talking severe clinical depression one's left with varying degrees of "better."
For the most part, I tend to attribute lifestyle changes with having kept depression away. I stopped smoking pot and quit drinking as often. And as much as I hate sounding like a public service announcement, exercise is an effective mood booster. A bike ride, golf, a quick surf, whatever; all of these has done more for me than drugs and the shrink ever did.
This can't be expected to work for everybody. If the negative effects of a med are proving to be too taxing, there are always other Rx choices. This is especially true with anti-depressants. There are maybe three or four separate categories, each with it's own family of specific drugs. One may prove better than another with regard to side effects.
The problem I ran into and something the doc never told me about prior to starting the meds, was that most anti-d's will mess with your sleep when starting and stopping them. I was essentially an insomniac for three weeks. They wean you off of them by cutting your dosage down over the course of a month. When starting them, I felt like I had the flu for about four days. Chills, nausea, etc. Not fun.
Switching meds wasn't an option for me at the time because of the disruption they would cause with my classes. I couldn't afford to not sleep for three weeks, only to have the flu for another four days as I started another Rx.
I guess my point is that lifestyle changes and a little exercise is preferable to the mess that comes with a scrip.
My experience wasn't exactly typical so grain of salt and all that.
Cheers.

[psychenaut]

Hello All,

I cannot speak to any individuals specific situation, we all react differently to different products.

For memory and mental clarity I personally use AOR's Ortho-Mind as it contains a very well thought out list of ingredients and is a synergistic and neuro-protective combination.

R(+)-lipoic acid ……………………................. 100 mg
Huperzine-A (from 20 mg Huperzia serrata 0.5%) 100 mcg
Vinpocetine ……………..……………. 15 mg *
Bacopa monniera extract(50% baccosides A&B) 300 mg
Ginkgo biloba extract……………….. 100 mg
(24% ginkgoflavone glycosides, 6% terpene lactones)
Cytidine diphosphate choline ……….. 500 mg
Acetyl-L-Carnitine HCl…………………. 1500 mg
L-Pyroglutamic Acid (base -racetam molecule).. 1500 mg
Pantothenic acid ………………….... 500 mg

Being in my 40's and a life-extensionist, I want to use a product that is SAFE and effective. With AOR one is assured of quality and potency. AOR Quality Commitment.

As Life Extension uncovered many years ago, it is unfortunately buyer beware when shopping for supplements. Read about it here LEF's Experience with Quality

Kindest Regards,
psychenaut

[AaronCW]

I agree with psychenaut that AOR's Orthomind is a very well formulated product, with full dosages of several essential or interesting intelligence enhancing or antiaging (or both as in bacopa and ALC) supplements. The cost is impressive as well (you can't put it together yourself for less without ordering bulk powders).

With regards to your personal regimen, piracetam is important (consider a higher dosage, around 2.4g in divided doses). Another important supp. for focus, attention, and multi-tasking is pyritinol. Try it at about 1000mg for a few days to see the full effects, and then drop down to 400mg. Although Hup-A can be expensive, you should try to maintain a dose of about 150mcg if possible, and include a good choline source such as centrophenoxine or CDP-choline.

Cheers,
Rasputin

[dubbyah]

Is Soy Lechithin A good source of choline? Also Rasputin, would you buy seperate things like piracetam and pyritonol and huperzine, or would you order the all in one, if you were me. Could I also add Piracetam to that all in one? I already bought Soy Lecithin for Choline

[psychenaut]

dubbyah,

May I respectfully ask- why not purchase Aniracetam/Piracetam and Ortho-Mind at the same time and place, save vs bought separate, save on shipping and tax, and know you are getting AOR pharmaceutical quality and potency on the AOR product?

I used to go the individual purchase route myself, but what a hassle. Be really good to your body and complement the stack with AOR's well formulated, new, Essential Mix.

Make the order $100 and get free shipping, take advantage of the March Madness Sale pricing. And you will be supporting a site that caters to pharmaceutical quality and cognitive enhancement/life-extension. A fine synergistic combo [thumb]

Best,
psychenaut

[dubbyah]

So are you saying you can use both piracetam and ortho mind at the same time? Would it prove synergistic? If so, then I will definately order piracetam/ortho mind.


I already have bought soy Lechithin and Alcar, however, It's not too late to return them.



I will order the piracetam/orthomind If they can be taken together. Can they? What If I have a bad reaction to something in ortho mind? Does it help you alot? Thanks

[psychenaut]

Hello dubbyah,

It is my understanding that the -racetams work well as a synergistic combo when taken together . Please keep in mind that I am not a health advisor or doctor and I strongly recommend that you do your own research.

Personally, every day I use Piracetam and Aniracetam along with Ortho-Mind and top it all off with the new Life Extension ALCAR-Arginate and supplemental R(+) from AOR . It is important that you balance the ALCAR with R(+) to combat the free radical production of the ALCAR (please read the Ortho-Mind page).

Again, this is my personal combo and I am in no position to recommend that anybody else do the same. Rasputin is correct that the price of carefully formulated Ortho-Mind cannot compare to products purchased separately. RelentlessImprovement.com refrigerates their Ortho-Mind until shipment to insure peak potency, all items above are in stock for immediate shipment.

[thumb]

Kind Regards,
psychenaut

[dubbyah]

I'm Confused. The ortho-mind has 1500 mg of Alcar in it already? Do I need to buy extra alcar and Lipoic acid to add in to that? Thanks so much for your help psychenaut im right about to order ortho mind and piracetam, and Extra Alcar/R(+) if needed. Even if extra Alcar isnt needed, should I get the R(+) anyways to supplement the Alcar in Ortho-mind? Thanks again

[dubbyah]

Also, I am currently taking 3 fish oil tablets which have 360 MG DHA and 250 EPA and 250 MG DMAE In the morning. Should I stop taking these when the ortho mi nd and piracetam get here? (And maybe the extra alcar /R+) ???? Thanks. They seem to be helping me. But I read that EPA is more for my ADHD and DHA wouldnt really do anything. I would order the EPA-Brite on relentless improvement but its pretty expensive and I already have the 250 EPA Pills here at my house. Also the DMAE Seems to be hleping me remember my dreams. Thanks alot, I really appriciate it.

[psychenaut]

Hello dubbyah,

Sorry for the confusion. The ALCAR-Arginate is a new patented molecule, a "supercharged" version of regular ALCAR if you will. With all the benefits associated with ALCAR and ALCAR-Arginate, I personally wanted to augment the very generous dose of ALCAR already contained in Ortho-Mind. It is simply my way of tweaking my Ortho-Mind/Piracetam/Aniracetam combo. Because of the additional ALCAR, it is appropriate to add the R(+) because they should be taken as a ratio. If you are not taking supplemental ALCAR with the Ortho-Mind, there is no need to add the R(+) unless you simply want additional free radical protection. R(+) is great stuff for the whole body, skin and brain.

Regarding the fish oil, again, I personally use the EPA Brite. I see on some other threads that a "high EPA" oil is used by some people, however AOR's research on the EPA-Brite is clear that the benefits sought are found with EPA only products. To quote their research:

"The common thinking on the different functions of the different omega-3s is: EPA for the heart, DHA for the brain.

There’s a reasonable-sounding argument behind this notion, based on the fact that DHA (docosahexaenoic acid, or 22:6w3) is a major component of the brain, while there’s only a tiny amount of EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid, or 20:5w3) in the nervous system. So when research started to show that countries and individuals who consumed more fish seemed more resistant to depression, schizophrenia, seasonal affective disorder (SAD), and bipolar disorder, almost everyone leapt to the conclusion that the seaborne secret just had to be DHA.

Not that it made any practical difference, of course: after all, nearly all EPA and DHA supplements come in the form of concentrated fish oil softgels with a significant amount of both fatty acids. So, the assumption was, you could get both benefits in one pill by just taking a common fish oil supplement.

Nice-sounding theory. But, as a series of randomized, placebo-controlled, clinical trials have shown, dead wrong."

Yes, the EPA Brite is not cheap. Yes it is pharmaceutical quality. Yes it has zero DHA. Yes it is kept refrigerated for full potency. Point being- you are getting exactly what you pay for compared to any other product on the market. I would say that the lesson here is that if you seek the clinically documented effect of an antibiotic, don't take an aspirin instead. [tung] I want to be clear that I do not espouse that EPA is right for everybody. Relentless Improvement ALSO sells DHA only, AND we sell what I believe is the very best combo product on the market- LEF Super EPA/DHA . I am not trying to steer people toward EPA, but wanted to clarify that they each have specific use indications, and a "high EPA/DHA combo" will not produce the same results as a pharmaceutical grade 100% EPA product. [lol]

Oh, and don't forget the basics! A strong house is not built on a weak foundation. Cognitive enhancement is found at the top of the "health hierarchy". Diet, exercise and good sleep are essential precursors to clear thought and good memory. The new Essential Mix should be part of your foundation.

Hope this helps, and I wish you the best!
Kind Regards,
psychenaut

Edited by psychenaut, 18 March 2005 - 01:53 AM.

[dubbyah]

Great! I was thinking of taking two ortho mind in the morning and then two in the evening. Would that be too much? Should I start with one in the morning and one in the after noon? Thanks

I weigh 240 pounds.

[psychenaut]

As you are already considering, a conservative approach is wise. Always take it on an empty stomach with a full glass of water. AOR does suggest that you ramp up to your personal optimal dose. I am 150lbs and choose to take 4 capsules of Ortho-Mind in the morning after rising. As you are larger, it would be reasonable to assume that you would achieve best effect at a higher dose, but we all react differently. Try raising your dose to the level that you like. Personally, I don't want to deal with 2x daily dosing due to hassle factor, but you may not care.

Keep in mind, the ingredients all have a long track record of safety and efficacy according to public literature.

Best,
psychenaut

[dubbyah]

Great. Do you have aim or an email addy or yahoo or anything where I could talk to you instantly? I have some more questions, just about DMAE and some various stuff ive read (mostly contradictory information on the net [not to what youre saying however]). Thanks alot

My aim name is daniel dubbyah by the way if you have it. Thanks alot.

[psychenaut]

info@RelentlessImprovement.com

No IM, sorry

[warewolf]

I have a question about Ortho-Mind and the Citocoline it offers. According to the product's website Citocoline is actually more effective than taking Phosphatidylserine (PS). So does that mean there's no reason to take PS when taking Ortho-Mind or is there some synergistic stack that can be utilized by taking PS also?

[psychenaut]

Hello warewolf,

AOR has discovered that PS is no longer effective because it is not animal derived. More details here on the CDP-Citicoline page. As they say- PS is passe' [!]

So, no need to add PS to the stack. Ortho-Mind is quite well rounded.

Best,
psychenaut

[dubbyah]

Tomorrow before i WAKE up im t aking 4 ortho mind 5 piracetam (4g ) 3 anirace tam ( 2100 ) and 1200 mg epa/800 dha. Good plan?

[jolly]

My top 3 for ADD -
DMAE, Fish Oils, & High doses of calcium/magnesium (1000/500mg)

http://www.mercola.c...endon_smith.htm - Where I found out about the cal/mag from.