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The myth of tolerance in Nootropics - An INDEPTH analysis - graphs included


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#1 OpenStrife

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 05:43 PM


I have come up with a solid theory, based on my indepth understanding of the mind, to why I believe there is no such thing as a tolerance in Nootropics. I will explain the true reason behind people thinking there is a tolerance.


Many people don't realize the power of intention, when it comes to the mind. Simply, consciously intending to do something before you do it can boost the entire outcome of the scenario.

Here is why I say there is no such thing as a Tolerance in Nootropics.

I will use Pramiracetam as the example, I will also cite another example of another related boosting substance and my experience with it.

Pramiracetam essentially boost Acetylcholine levels and this builds over time. People begin to experience really good recall and learning. Though after some time they notice the effects are 'not so much'. They call this tolerance.

I disagree. Here's why. When your memory boost like that, memory recall becomes much easier. When memory recall becomes easier, the mental effort to retrieve a memory also becomes less. Resulting in an experience that your memory benefits aren't getting any better. When REALLY, the mental effort your mind used to put forth to retrieve a memory has greatly decreased, giving you the feeling that you're not really getting a boost from it.

If the mental effort is consciously practiced and worked on, then you will notice there is ALWAYS a boost. The easier it gets to recall memories the less concentrated attention is required to recall a memory... this can result in a gradual disconnect in conscious concentration depth because it requires far less concentration power to retrieve memories. As your memory gets stronger and stronger, your mind gets used to not having to concentrate as much to recall memories. This adapted habit of not having to concentrate as much then results in a disappearance of the original phenomenon of intense memory experiences. Your mind grows so used to such an easy recall of memories. Meaning if you do not intently focus your attention and concentration(as in meditation), then your ability to concentrate rapidly on a deep level will dwindle because it is not being used as much since memory recall is simply easier.

The more will power that is put forth to a certain task(such as memory retrieval), the more you will get out of the faculties concerning that. Meaning if your will power remains stactic and you train it over time, along with the memory faculty boost, you will continue to experience enormas growths in memory abilities, endlessly.

If you don't train your willpower/concentration, then it will grow weaker while your memory faculty grows stronger. There is a direct correlation between mental exertion and the vastness of memory faculties in regards to the 'wow' moments you get on a nootropic.

Here is a graph demonstrating what happens the longer you are on a nootropic. Your mental faculties grow but the nessisary mental exertion required weakens as not much mental effort is needed to perform the task you frequently perform due to the larger mental faculty... Though it will not weaken if you train it.

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Here is both graphs combined pointing out where the 'tolerance' effect happens and why.

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Understand? On the other hand, if one intently practices his concentration and focus, holding it deeply on a memory, even after it has easily been retrieved, the more he develops his willpower/concentration power, the longer you will experience the amazing phenomenon associated with Nootropics.



Now with this said. This concept applies to ANYTHING that boost the mind in any way. REMEMBER THIS. If you do anything that makes a certain task or ability easier for the mind, then you are inturn weakening the faculty that exerted effort to do that task before. If you do not continue to practice and exert that faculty beyond the necessarily point(while on the substance), than you will experience it weakening.

The bad thing is, this can result in, once you are off the substance, and your mind slowly loses(over 5-6 months) that incredible boost that it has built up, your concentration, or your exertion/will power will remain weak, and you will actually be mentally WEAKER than before when you started the stack/substance. You lived so long with that substance in your system making things such as memory retrieval easy for you, that it weakened your will power and needed effort.

I remember when I was in high school, I would take Vitamin B12 every day for energy, the sublingual kind with like 16,000% the nessisary dose. This was all dandy. But it eventually got to the point that on the days I didn't take it, I was drained to no end. This was a result of the b12 making 'action' so easy for me that my concentration/will powers dwindled, so when I didn't have it in my system, my concentration/will powers were not able to crank up enough juice because it grew so used to the b12 faciliting everything.


If you understand these concepts and practice activities that train your mental exertion, and constantly push your mind to the limit... you will continue to forever develop insane abilities as long as you continue to take the Nootropic.

For instance, Some buddhist monks live off of very poor diets, barley Rice and Water and Green Tea. Though because they meditate so much, their ability to 'mentally exert' a conscious effort becomes so strong that they can pull of extreme mental feats that the average person cannot, even only with an average developed mental faculty. This is because their will power is so strong that they can dive so indepth to the faculty. And the simple act of diving this indepth into a faculty alone will cause that faculty to expand and become stronger, so it is a win win situation.



Practice your mental effort and will power, and you will never experiences a tolerance. You will only experience gains. Do not get lost and distracted by the crazy mental feats and extreme easy of remembering things, if you let these distract you then your mind will get acustomed to not having to put forth much mental effort and your mental exertion abilities will weaken. When they weaken so will your ability to take full advantage of the developed mental faculty!
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#2 OpenStrife

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 06:00 PM

Also, if you didn't catch the drift in the post.

What I'm basically saying is that Nootropics develop the brain so rapidly that they indirectly cause a weakening in will power because the mind gets so used to having to put forth barley any effort to do the task it is used to doing. This can shorten the steadiness of your attention span and how well you can hold it. When this gets shortened so does your ability to dive deeply into thoughts. If you do not practice mental exertion and mental discipline such as meditation while on Nootropics, your mental will power will grow very weak and you will experience a tolerance effect, and if you go off the substance, your mental faculties will be steady for a while, but will decline without mental training on your part and without mental training you will eventually revert back to your previous memory state, AND have a weakened sense of mental exertion.

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#3 Raza

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 07:46 PM

The consensus here seems to be that racetams don't build tolerance, but rather accumulate benefits over long term use. I'm not sure who you're arguing against, here.

#4 OpenStrife

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 08:38 PM

Since I started taking Pramiracetam I've read litterally every topic on here regarding it.

There have been numerous people, including others talking about other racetams, that a tolerance develops after 4-6 months of use.

In my post I explain the actual mechanims behind this 'tolerance' some people describe. If tolerance is defined as, less 'amazing' effects as you do when some people first take it... then yet, you do build up a tolerance, but your body does not actually build a resistance to it.

The only reason the effects seem to weaker is because your concentration depth weakens as it is not needed at such a strength since the memory circuits are strengthening themself. It is the weakening concentration depth/concentration hold time that people describe as tolerance. Their mind basically can't dive deep enough into the developed memory circuit as it used to, but they can still do their usual memory feats as their circuits have developed enough to be able to do it without the need of a lot of effort.

#5 caliban

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 03:05 AM

Appreciate the effort! But theories (even if nicely illustrated) do not an analysis make.
Tolerance and habituation in the non-pathological brain is a complex topic
eg:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21262317 vs. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15678363

#6 OpenStrife

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 04:19 AM

You're right, just because something is a theory doesn't mean it's true... but at the same time it doesn't mean it's false. You never know.

A very simple way to understanding this weakening would be like this, a metaphor.

Say you are pushing a boulder up a hill for 20 years of your life. Then along comes 15 other people to help you. Now pushing the boulder is easy! You're accomplishing the same rate of travel up the hill as you did when pushing it on your own, but with 1/15th the effort.

You don't need to push near as hard as you had to before, so inturn your exertion ability grows weak over time. Now after those people helped you for say 10 years... they decide to stop. You're all on your own, after losing the exertion power that took 20 years to build up....

On the other hand... if you had continued to forcefully push at the same rate you always had, even with the 15 people, the boulder would go even faster up the hill!
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Same concept applies to substance that boost mental capabilities indirectly. While under these substances that boost your mental ability, if you force your mental exertion to the point you always had, instead of taking the easy route the substances provide... not only will you not experiencing a 'weakening' in the effect, but you will experience a growth in the effect. Your intention will essentially be to push the boundaries of the effect, thereby expanding the faculty of the brain the substance has the most effect on, while at the same time building your own mental exertion capabilities up.....

Too many people fall into the easy route. Just because a bunch of substances make your daily task far easier does not mean that taking the easy route is always the best choice... This can make you weak. A smart person would continue to push his mental boundaries so he does not fall into the trap of a weakening will.

It's common knowledge. When it comes to the brain, you either use it or lose it. This means that if for whatever reason you don't have to use something as much, then you will inturn gradually loose what you're not using(in this context - the mental exertion level). As mental exertion levels dwindle, so does the level of accessing abilities your willpower has. The stronger your will power, the more of a mental faculty you can take advantage of. (Just like how young children lose their creativity abilities the more they are introduced into the infrastructure of society that is essentially programming them).

I don't really know how else to explain it. It seems very clear cut and obvious to me. It's Basic brain behavior.

Edited by OpenStrife, 20 June 2012 - 04:21 AM.


#7 MrHappy

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:05 PM

I just finished reading that increasing levels of BDNF ultimately ends up downregulating TrkB receptors, balancing out the effect. Homeostatis is what it is. I think I've also found a way to prevent the downregulation, but that requires some further studies.

#8 OpenStrife

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:57 PM

Please do say your theory. Even with no studies behind it, you never know what another mind may take from it

#9 Major Legend

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:31 AM

To me there is a marked increase of "brilliance" that comes from taking nootropics, this "brilliance" seems to go away upon continual usage of a few months when a break is required, but at no point did I take the "brilliance" for granted it always gave me something extra that I know I would not have unless I was a teenager again.

I also don't feel that getting used to the "brilliance" made me tolerant of it, rather somehow I slowly realised I was no longer having brilliant thoughts anymore and no matter how hard I tried I can't get it back whilst doing nootropics for a long time. Unless I take a long break and do it again...almost every substance I have encountered seemed to work the best when cycled. The brain seems to have a very good way of becoming tolerant and going back to status quo.

That said I find this notion intriguing but how do you "try" and "attempt" something that isn't really effort, but rather spurts of interconnectivity and realisations? It's not as if my clarity is constantly improved so, when I try harder I don't get "further clarity" to the boost nootropics already give me. Surely I am somewhat aware of my cognitive abilities waning or improving, whilst being able to correlate that to my own mental effort and time spent on doing stuff??

#10 MrHappy

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 11:00 AM

Please do say your theory. Even with no studies behind it, you never know what another mind may take from it

LM22A-4:
http://www.longecity...at-mimics-bdnf/

It's a TrkB agonist.
http://kenes.com/bra...cts/pdf/755.pdf
http://www.jneurosci...5/1803.abstract

So I'm thinking that combining a BNDF promoter with a TrkB agonist might prevent homeostatis in this pathway and increase the effect of BDNF significantly.

#11 OpenStrife

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:44 PM

Just clarifying, but are most nootropics considered BNDF's?

And what would some TrkB agonist be?

Edit: I found this, a TrkB agonist... http://www.biotrend-...y?itemid=BS0294

But I'm trying to find the dosages on it... since it's $137 for 100mg. I'd be willing to experiment... if I had some

Edit:

Though it seems it is widely available in fruits? I did notice that when I eat a large portion of fruits, on the days I take Pramiracetam, I have wondrous effects uncompareble to do the days I do not eat fruit.

Edited by OpenStrife, 26 June 2012 - 03:51 PM.


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#12 MrHappy

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 03:46 AM

For long-term effects, you're typically looking for something to promote neurogenesis and synaptogenesis and that is neuroprotective. Ways to achieve this include increasing NGF, BDNF and other growth factors. Short-term effects are also realised through increasing the efficiency of AC and PC pathways. ATP is another important aspect.




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