<BJKlein> Official Chat Begins..
<BJKlein> Topic: New Year's Resolutions
<John_Ventureville> excellent!
<Gordon> I don't know, Eli; BJ seems to like it when we come
<Lazlo> Good Evening folks
<BJKlein> Your's, Mine, ImmInst's and Anything else that comes up...
<John_Ventureville> As potential immortals goal setting should be of major importance to all of us.
<BJKlein> sl4 guys are welcome..
<BJKlein> as long as we stay on topic
<John_Ventureville> lol
<BJKlein> for as long as non sl4 friends wish to stay on topic
<BJKlein> Welcome Lazlo
<Gordon> my goal is to be more like Eliezer: I will get less sunlight
<John_Ventureville> huh?
<Lazlo> Hi BJ
<John_Ventureville> Does he never go out during the day?
<Lazlo> et al
<Eliezer> that was my New Year's Resolution for something like 1997
<Eliezer> "to be turned toward the light and watered occasionally"
<John_Ventureville> lol
<nrv8-> start a paleo diet!
<Eliezer> wow, that was actually on topic
<BJKlein> somehow I see Eliezer around one of those artificial sun lamps because he never ventures outside
<ImmortalPhilosopher> so
<Gordon> actually, I'll be starting it correctly just after the new year
<Eliezer> actually, I'd like to take a moment to hawk the Paleo Diet for all interested immortalists
<Eliezer> as far as I can tell, it actually works
<John_Ventureville> why do you believe in it so much?
<Gordon> I would today, but now that I know exactly what to buy but there's already food here
<John_Ventureville> Are you on it?
<Eliezer> um... it has a reasonable backstory, and it appears to work
<Eliezer> sort of the dietary equivalent of a confirmed causal model
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Can anybody give me a msn contact?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> 3please
<BJKlein> I would also recommend looking in to the Atkins diet program also.. similar to the Paleo Diet works
<John_Ventureville> Eliezer, do you plan to go on it?
<Eliezer> I'm already on it
<John_Ventureville> I see.
<Gordon> speaking of paleodiets, I think I might write up a little information page about it
<paledream> :>
<Gordon> since the info I got online was slightly misleading
<Eliezer> please read the book first, Gordon
<paledream> What's the most potent antioxidant?
<Gordon> I already did
<paledream> Enzogenol?
<Eliezer> fresh vegetables
<John_Ventureville> Anyone here on the Zone diet plan?
<BJKlein> Any diet that excludes high carb intake is a world better than the current American diet
<Mermaid> what is a 'high carb intake'
<Mermaid> in terms of grams
<Gordon> BJKlein: I'm not sure about, since before I got the book I thought it was okay to eat fatty meats, which I now know was incorrect
<Eliezer> true, but that fact only makes sense in terms of ancestral diets and the tolerance limits of the human metabolism
<Gordon> exchanging bread for lamb chops is probably a move in the wrong direction
<BJKlein> somewhere around 40-60 is high I would think
<Eliezer> no, exchanging bread for lamb chops is definitely a move in the right direction
<Eliezer> not an optimal move, but definitely in the right direction
<Gordon> are you sure: lamb chops are like 75% saturated fats
<paledream> is there a site that measures the ORAC of antioxidants?
<Mermaid> what would be the rec. carb intake?
<paledream> Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity
<ImmortalPhilosopher> 3I think the first step should be genetics, not diet
<Eliezer> your body has a lot more design leeway for "too much fat" than "too much concentrated sugar", apparently
<BJKlein> please use regular font color ImmortalPhilosopher... thanks
<ImmortalPhilosopher> 1ok
<Eliezer> Mermaid: I would recommend that you get your carbs in the form of fruits and vegetables
<BJKlein> Welcome Back John Griggs
* Mermaid is indian...we will die without rice!!!
<paledream> Eliezer - it's not always convenient for everybody to always maintain a fresh suppy
<Eliezer> as long as you do that, your body will stay in design tolerances for the amount of carbs it can process
<paledream> that's why supplements is very good
<Eliezer> I know, especially if you're on a budget
<BJKlein> Eliezer can you tell us more about your positive experience on the diet?
<Eliezer> as I am now on a budget, I eat basically bananas, pineapple, oranges, turkey, and one egg per day
<paledream> And -- that's not specifically designed for high ORAC
<Eliezer> and by golly it *still* works
<BJKlein> Do you for instance feel better, have lost weight?
<Eliezer> it's not so much losing weight, as maintaining weight now that I no longer have the time (or facilities) to exercise
<Gordon> there's a certain lack of vegetables there, Eli
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Are there Eurpeans?
<Eliezer> I don't mind lacking vegetables
<John_Ventureville> but does your body?
<Eliezer> see, as near as I can tell from my amateur study, the human body will tolerate a very wide range in diet
<Eliezer> so long as it is hunter-gatherer diet
<BJKlein> John.. your name is John Griggs, right?
<John_Ventureville> Grigg, actually.
<John_Ventureville> yes
<nrv8-> french fries are bad right?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> away
<Gordon> hmm, so I can still eat cheap, though I was really enjoying the excuse to buy a lot of seafood
<John_Ventureville> I was helping a visitor, sorry.
<Eliezer> french fries are bad
<BJKlein> We'll have to discuss the current state of affairs at Ventureville after the topic
<John_Ventureville> ok
<Eliezer> potatoes = nonancestral food
<Eliezer> salt = nonancestral food
<Mermaid> french fries are potatoes..potatoes are veggies..altho..kinda heavy on starch
<BJKlein> actually potatoes raise insulin levels higher than pure sugar
<Eliezer> doesn't work that way, Mermaid
<Gordon> I was eating a lot of hot dogs and eggs for a while in an attempt to get closer to the paleo diet: that was a bad idea, even if they were kosher franks
<John_Ventureville> Isn't keeping steady insulin levels one of the key ways to slow aging?
<Mermaid> why was it a bad idea?
<paledream> What about Glyconutrients? look at all the testimonials here: www.glycostory.com
<Eliezer> if you look at nonancestral foods such as potatoes and legumes, they often have substances in them that gum up the human metabolism because wasn't part of the environment adapted to
* Mermaid doesnt know what 'hot dogs' contain tho'
<Gordon> Mermaid: nor do I; that's why I ate the kosher ones
<Mermaid> what does kosher hot dogs contain..i know its meat..but what meat is it exactly?
<BJKlein> John_Ventureville: I believe that the current high carb, high sugar, high processed food American diet has played havoc with insulin levels, that's why we have an explosion in diabetes
<Gordon> Mermaid: too much bad fat and cholestoral
<Eliezer> it's not the total amount of carbs that plays havoc with insulin levels, though
<Mermaid> welcome shadow
<Gordon> kosher hot dogs are basically beef in intestine with kosher salt added as a preservative
<Eliezer> this is one of those subtle things that seems to require a paleo perspective to understand
<Lazlo> Add in alcahol, the super sugar. It too is devastating to insulin levels
<Eliezer> it's the concentration of the carbs
<Shadow> :-) Mermaid, BJK, all. . .
<Eliezer> you can eat all the fruits and vegetables you want and it'll fall within the design limits of the human metabolism
<BJKlein> Welcome.... Shadow, what's your new year's res?
<Shadow> Lazlo, are you saying that pint of Vodka I drank on Xmas was a bad idea?
<Eliezer> the sugar isn't concentrated enough to throw your insulin levels off
<Shadow> BJK, I haven't decided.
<Eliezer> or, rather, your insulin-based metabolism is designed to handle sugar concentrations in that range
<Lazlo> It certainly is if you are worried about adult onset diabetes
<paledream> What does Raymond Kurzweil take for his supplements?
<Shadow> ah, okay.
<Shadow> ic.
<Gordon> Eli: at least throw in broccoli: if you steam the fresh stuff and eat it plain it taste sort of like potatoes
<paledream> cannot find it..
<Eliezer> Gordon: why should I? I take a daily vitamin-mineral tab
<BJKlein> I read an article that Ray takes "hundreds" of vitamins
<Eliezer> all I need besides that are raw calories
<paledream> BJKlein - yes, but what?
<BJKlein> don't know
<Eliezer> as long as they're fuel my metabolism can process
<paledream> that's the 'mystery' :O/
<BJKlein> He's writing a book
<paledream> I know -- guess he'll write it in there.
<BJKlein> with Grossman
<Gordon> but does your tab contain the extras found in actual vegetables (beyond the standard set of minerals and vitamins)
<Mermaid> actually..most veggies dont contain the daily req amount of minerals and vitamins
<Eliezer> I don't know, but do I really need vegetables so long as I get my fruits?
<John_Ventureville> Eliezer, I just wonder with the way you apply this diet if you are really getting optimal nutrition.
<Eliezer> I get the impression that as long as I take my vitamin supplement, the answer should be no
<Gordon> I suppose as long as you don't get cancer it doesn't matter: it all just fights cancer in different ways
<John_Ventureville> We need a real nutritional expert here!
<John_Ventureville> Not amateur ones like everyone here!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<Gordon> oh, but more than broccoli, garlic and onions contain an anti bacterial agent which will help you keep from getting sick
<nrv8-> really
<nrv8-> i eat those three a lot
<paledream> What do you people use for managing web information?
<paledream> All this information -- is extremely difficult to manage with just a texteditor
<Gordon> paledream: Google?
<Eliezer> okay, let me explain one major theory underlying my diet: it has to be *simple* so as to *conserve willpower*
<John_Ventureville> A good point.
<BJKlein> One good thing I've found is... If it's not in the house, you can't eat it...
<Gordon> Eli: are you buying all fresh fruits, or have you found any packaged fruits that are acceptable substitutes
<BJKlein> Therefore, go to the store on a full stomach.. and don't buy crap
<Eliezer> the pineapple I eat is canned pineapple, the bananas and oranges are fresh
<Eliezer> all three fruits were chosen on the basis of minimizing cost per pound
<Eliezer> same theory for the turkey
<BJKlein> careful on the pineapples canned, they have much sugar
<Eliezer> do they have sugar concentrated beyond the level of ordinary pineapples found in nature?
<Gordon> yeah, I'm off of pineapple for the time being because of that and the fresh stuff is too expensive this time of year
<Boris> and yet there are people who live 100 years eating only rice.
<BJKlein> I squeez orange juice, as it has more sugar than sodas out of the bottle
<John_Ventureville> *Only rice??*
<Boris> well, they chew hemp as well
<BJKlein> Eliezer, yeh.. Sugar is added
<Mermaid> my grandmother lived to a ripe odd age of 90+something
<Mermaid> rice
<Mermaid> everyday
<Gordon> plus preservatives, I'd imagine (I haven't checked lately)
<nrv8-> what about OJ
<nrv8-> too much sugar?
<BJKlein> Mermaid, she may have lived longer and healther with a better diet..
<John_Ventureville> Many of my relatives lived to their late seventies on a diet of cigarettes, too much booze and fatty foods.
<Eliezer> sigh... I guess I'll have to check that, and possibly find a substitute for the pineapple as well
<Eliezer> though I could have sworn the ingredients list said just "pineapple"
<John_Ventureville> I hope to outlive them by being sensible in my lifestyle.
<Gordon> nrv8: fruit juices contain sugar but little fiber to balance with it
<BJKlein> OJ. have loads and loads of sugar.. something like 45grams per 12oz
<nrv8-> so you squeeze your own BJK
<BJKlein> yes
<Mermaid> who wants to live upto 90?
<Mermaid> in frail health
<John_Ventureville> I do,.
<Mermaid> its one thing to be immortal in good health
<John_Ventureville> *not in frail health*
<Eliezer> it's not a question I have to deal with
<Mermaid> its totally another to be dependent on others because your body wont listen to you
<Eliezer> oops, forget I said anything
<Gordon> Eliezer: frozen ground beef says just beef, though we all know that's not true
<BJKlein> heh.. careful there Singularitarian
<BJKlein> there'll be plenty of time for all of that
<Nus> Eliezer: it's not 2003 yet
<Mermaid> gordon, what else does frozen beef contain?
<Eliezer> frozen ground beef isn't just ground beef?
<John_Ventureville> Mother nature might have a ticking genetic time bomb inside one of us, including Eliezer.
<nrv8-> life without bread. ;(
<John_Ventureville> I realize that is not a pleasant thing to think about.
<BJKlein> Lab Grown Meat Nearing the Menue: http://www.newscient...p?id=ns99993208
<John_Ventureville> Peta will rejoice!
<nrv8-> i'll try to find cordain's book
<Gordon> if frozen ground beef doesn't contain preservatives and additives I'll eat a whole box of it in one day
<Gordon> if it's just frozen meat, I'd be surprised since frozen meat without preservatives will only last for a month or two
<Lazlo> Ground beef contains what he packers include, depends on he product
* BJKlein fixes much beef on the George Forman grill
<Lazlo> Most off the shelf products contain both hormones and antibiotics related to cattle growth
* Nus eats a lot of apple cores, is that unhealthy?
<John_Ventureville> lol!
<BJKlein> and fish.. and chicken
<Gordon> the other issue is what the frozen ground beef I can buy at walmart was fed
<Lucifer> BJK, what is special about the George Forman grill?
<John_Ventureville> Nus, you will surely die of cyanide poisoning! : )
<BJKlein> it drains the fat
<Gordon> it cuts the fat *pow*
<BJKlein> yehhaa
<Nus> John_Ventureville: seriously?
<John_Ventureville> no!
<Eliezer> aren't you thinking of almonds?
<Gordon> though it's a bitch to clean
<John_Ventureville> My mother used to tell me apple seeds had small amounts of cyanide in them.
<BJKlein> Gordon. use al foil
<John_Ventureville> I don't know if it is true.
<Nus> Yeah, and people used to tell me that if you ate apple seeds a tree would grow out of you
<BJKlein> just toss that baby into the trash after each use
<Lazlo> Don' chew the seeds
<Nus> hasn't happened as yet
<Gordon> tin foil will survive on it?
* BJKlein likes to chew popcorn seeds.... is that bad?
<BJKlein> Gordon: yes, works well
<Lazlo> Actually by the way they do have very small amounts of cyanide and that is where the early extractions came from
<John_Ventureville> Lazlo, interesting!
<Nus> extractions?
<Lazlo> No just apple seeds.
<Gordon> oh, well, I guess I'll have to try that, because I hate the complicated and time consuming process of wiping it down
<Lazlo> I like to eat prune pits, they are a lot like almonds and do have arsenic
<John_Ventureville> BJ, you will wear down the enamel on your teeth!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<paledream> anyone use Stevia as substitute for sugar?
<BJKlein> New Year's Resoultion... stop eating popcorn seeds
<Gordon> Eli: what kind of turkey are you buying?
<Lazlo> Popcorn seeds aren' bad for your health just digestion
<Eliezer> the very cheap, frozen kind
<BJKlein> paledream, I've heard good thing about Stevia... never used it.. something like 100x as sugary as real sugar..
<BJKlein> without the bad effects
<Gordon> tyson frozen turkey breast :-)
<paledream> yep, me too, i'm going to buy some
<Mermaid> i was going to get some too...
<BJKlein> where do you get it?
<Mermaid> organic stores probably..
<BJKlein> I've only seen it online..
<Mermaid> god! they are so goddamn ugly...organic stores are so depressing to shop in...
<Lazlo> Does a Tyson frozen turkey come with bits of ear in its belly?
<paledream> i'm buying from www.iherb.com
<Gordon> I have no idea: I don't eat frozen turkey (I'm just guessing that tyson sells the stuff)
<BJKlein> Well, before we drift to far off topic .... bahh..
<Lazlo> Well if you are cooking on a Foreman grill I just figured it was a Mike Tyson Turkey
<BJKlein> I thought I'd spill my mind a little about the future of ImmInst
<John_Ventureville> Mermaid, at least in Anchorage we have a health food/organice store which would impress you.
* Mermaid knows
<John_Ventureville> Speaking of New Year's Resolutions....
<John_Ventureville> *cool!*
<Mermaid> i used to get some stuff shipped from anchorage because RI, the quaintest, cutest, smallest state of the union didnt have any..
<John_Ventureville> I resolve to develop an exercise plan and actually STICK to it for the whole year.
<BJKlein> Some of the goals I have in mind for ImmInst are to put down into text some of the core ideas of Immortalism..
<John_Ventureville> The owner of The Natural Pantry is a longtime family friend.
<John_Ventureville> BJ, about time!
<Mermaid> me too...i never stick to my exercise plan
<BJKlein> Create a pamphlet..
<Mermaid> but then again..its not 'really' a plan
<Gordon> exercise? What's that?
<John_Ventureville> Unpleasant physical exertion!
<John_Ventureville> : )
<BJKlein> I've neglected putting to much down as of yet, because, my mind is still taking in and digesting the transhumanist and singularitarian philosphies
<Mermaid> i like physical exertion..
<Mermaid> i dont like the cold
<John_Ventureville> Exercise will keep you warm.
<John_Ventureville> BJ, how much longer do you need to fully digest what you are studying?
<Mermaid> not if it makes you sweat..and in extreme cold..the sweat works against you...
<Mermaid> unless you are wearing one of those wick-away thingies
<John_Ventureville> Gotta have them in the cold climates
<BJKlein> However, the future of the Inst will involve more physical meetings.. note here the IWAC Conference..
<John_Ventureville> I hope the attendance is good for that.
<BJKlein> I hope this will become an annual gathering of sorts... here in Birmingham..
<Gordon> well, as long as I can afford it, I'm going to stick with eating shrimp and red snapper
<BJKlein> It will be Susan and I this year.. and will grow from that
<Eliezer> who else is coming?
<BJKlein> We'll have dinner at our Museum, it's an amazing place..
<John_Ventureville> BJ, that is a beginning!
<John_Ventureville> I would come if I could.
<BJKlein> Susan, Me and I..
<BJKlein> so three people
<John_Ventureville> lol
<Gordon> when is it?
<Lazlo> I like nopales and good tortillas, along with lots of various mushrooms
<Nus> Susan, BJKlein and nielKJB?
<XxDoubleHelixX> when is it again?
<BJKlein> No, but I seriously hope this will be a sustainable event
<John_Ventureville> And in time.....
<BJKlein> Jan 18th
<Eliezer> is there anyone coming besides the two of you?
<BJKlein> It's centered around Ben Franklin's Birthday Jan 17th..
<John_Ventureville> have it at a certain place known as The Creekside Preserve.
<Gordon> rats, there's no hope that I could take a bus and make it: class and work
<BJKlein> Eliezer, as of yet no
<John_Ventureville> BJ, do you get the extrolist?
<John_Ventureville> It needs to be posted about there.
<Eliezer> sigh... someday all of this will be done by computer
<BJKlein> John_Ventureville, yes
<John_Ventureville> good
<BJKlein> Eliezer: I agree this will all be an interactive meeting every weekend..
<BJKlein> VR
<John_Ventureville> Eliezer, there is something about actual physical "real world" interface which in some ways you cannot replace.
<Gordon> I don't know, that could be bad when we are blinded by how white Eli's avatar has become
<John_Ventureville> *interfacing*
<John_Ventureville> Gordon, post-singularity? lol
<Eliezer> shh
<Eliezer> Maybe that was an abuse of power, but what the heck, I do have op privileges here, might as well use them
<BJKlein> I agree with John_Ventureville, however, the total immersion of VR will outstrip real world experence soon
<John_Ventureville> At a certain point, yes.
<Lazlo> So who else is volunteering a resolution?
<John_Ventureville> CB radios?
<John_Ventureville> : )
<John_Ventureville> "10-4 good immortalist buddy!"
<BJKlein> Ohh, speeking of real world events.. Eliezer, I know your going to the WTA event at Yale, is anyone else?
<Eliezer> I'm not sure I'll be able to make that unless I pick up new funding, though
<BJKlein> actually, you'll be speeking right Eliezer?
<Eliezer> no, I'm not sure why James Hughes said that, since I was careful to specify that I might not be able to speak
<Eliezer> if this is a widespread misapprehension perhaps I should make an announcement about it
<BJKlein> btw, I received my SinInst newsletter, thanks.
<Gordon> there's a SingInst newsletter?
<Eliezer> for our donors
<John_Ventureville> ahh....
<BJKlein> Maybe you should, some may be interesteding in helping you attend.
<Gordon> well, assuming my donation was not too pitiful, I guess I should be getting one (though I may not even need it, so you might be able to save money by not sending me one)
<BJKlein> I will not be able to make it the WTA event either... however, Ken Sills may take my place
<Mirage> Hey guys
<John_Ventureville> hello
<BJKlein> as I do not fly a drive would be out of the question, at least this year
<Gordon> why don't you fly?
<BJKlein> But anyway.. That's where I hope to take the ImmInst..
<LefMirage> haha
<BJKlein> more physical meetings.
<BJKlein> No, I do not chance my life
<John_Ventureville> You chance it every day by driving a car.
<Gordon> well, hate to break it to you, but flying is dramatically safer than driving
<BJKlein> even if i'm more likely to be hit by a meteorite
<John_Ventureville> The control you have driving may be largely illusory.
<BJKlein> yes.. I agree, but that doesn't mean i'm going to fly to the grocery store every day
<BJKlein> just kidding
<John_Ventureville> Oh, well
<John_Ventureville> We all do what we see it best for our own personal circumstances.
<Gordon> right, but given the choice of all available options, flying is the safest means of long distance transportation
<BJKlein> the real reason is that cryonics will not help me after a plane crash
<BJKlein> much more likely to have pieces after a car crash
<John_Ventureville> A good point.
<Gordon> ah, well, now that makes some kind of sense
<BJKlein> I weigh the cost/benefit of not making a trip...
<John_Ventureville> And a flight crash site might be sealed off for a time by the feds.
<John_Ventureville> *not good for a cryonicista*
<BJKlein> and in all cases thus far I've found that flying is not beneficial
<XxDoubleHelixX> So, on a random subject. Anyone read about our good pal Leon Kass trying to make therapeutic cloning meld into reproductive cloning so the ban will take out both?
<John_Ventureville> no!
<XxDoubleHelixX> just, fyi
<John_Ventureville> A scary guy.
<BJKlein> good ol Leon
<John_Ventureville> He must be having a field day with the Raelians.
<John_Ventureville> : (
<BJKlein> providing the perfect antagonist to the immortalist cause
<XxDoubleHelixX> yes, now lets pray for him to choke on a hotdog
<John_Ventureville> lol!
<BJKlein> no actually, we need him more than ever now
<XxDoubleHelixX> sorry, debating distance healing
<John_Ventureville> why?
<BJKlein> he shows that our movement has merit
<John_Ventureville> I see.
<XxDoubleHelixX> touche'
<John_Ventureville> He and Jeremy Rifkin will be just what we need.
<BJKlein> he's a high ranking official, and he's talking about immortality.. what more could we ask for?
<BJKlein> no we need someone to take him on...
<John_Ventureville> Things only work if we represent ourselves properly in the media.
<Gordon> <bad>For him to tell people they should work towards the Singularity?</bad>
<BJKlein> Max, Ray, someone
<John_Ventureville> Someone like Gregory Stock?
<XxDoubleHelixX> meh, he will just respond like all the creationists I encounter
<John_Ventureville> : )
<BJKlein> Stock, yest
<John_Ventureville> I enjoyed watching my employer get interviewed by a Dutch film crew regard cryonics and Ventureville.
<John_Ventureville> In at least one part of the world we were getting the word out.
<BJKlein> cool
<BJKlein> Boris.. you there?
<John_Ventureville> At news footage has a way of travelling around from place to place on a global scale.
<John_Ventureville> *And*
<Gordon> back on topic, I think that new years resolutions are kind of silly: I have found over the years that starting something new is no more likely to succeed if I begin on 1 Jan
<John_Ventureville> Gordon, I still love the whole notion of it.
<Boris> BJ, yes listening
<BJKlein> ahh, I just wanted to welcome ya in real time
<John_Ventureville> It at least gets everyone to take stock of things in their life.
<Gordon> perhaps, but it's just human craziness to think that a new year means a new you
<John_Ventureville> At least to an extent.
<Boris> thanks. Congrats on your site.
<John_Ventureville> Gordon, don't be so negative!
<BJKlein> Ahh, Thank You.
<John_Ventureville> Hope must be eternal.
<John_Ventureville> But it must be tempered by some reality, I admit.
<Gordon> people should do things to be better, but doing it because the calendar date changes is not sufficient motivation for success
<John_Ventureville> Where many people fall down is with not breaking down goals into smaller pieces and then setting deadlines.
<John_Ventureville> And WRITING those deadlines down!
<BJKlein> by the way... i'll cut this chat topic to one hr.. and open it up to all discussion
<Gordon> for example, although it would be wonderful if it happened, I doubt I will wake up on 1 Jan and find that because I've decided to be more rational that I actually become more rational just because I decided that I should do it and because the date changed
<John_Ventureville> BUT, if you have written down your subgoals which need to be done every day to attain that goal...
<Nus> Gordon: doesn't illogical symbolism have at least some small effect on motivation?
<Boris> BJ, can yo make different rooms in this applet?
<BJKlein> you can pm me or others..
<BJKlein> just click on the nick
<Gordon> Nus: what would help is if you got together with some friends and you all made resolutions together
<John_Ventureville> Gordon, you remind me of an Irish friend I have who used to love to say...
<John_Ventureville> "every holiday is just another day!"
<Gordon> then you've a certain social obligation to your friends to keep your promise
<John_Ventureville> ....until he got married for the first time and an anniversary was coming up!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<BJKlein> I think new year's resoultion would work if they worked more like bets..
<Nus> Gordon: that would help, but doesn't tagging something in your mind as a New Year's Resolution give it at least slightly more effectiveness?
<John_Ventureville> Sharing a goal with the RIGHT friends can be a great idea.
<Gordon> I have found no
<BJKlein> if there was mony on it, you'd probably be more apt to keep it
<John_Ventureville> Oh, boy!!
<Eliezer> I resolve to write a book, to become wealthy, and to sprout wings and fly
<John_Ventureville> I like that idea!
<John_Ventureville> Eli, good goals!
<Nus> Gordon: you could be right, have never really tried, but I could see it making a small difference.
<XxDoubleHelixX> book about what?
<John_Ventureville> I know you could do all of them if you REALLY wanted to.
<Nus> *I have never etc.
<Gordon> Eli: sadly, I think that they all have the same chance of happening
<John_Ventureville> I may one day write a book about my experiences here.
<John_Ventureville> maybe
<XxDoubleHelixX> whats on the reading list for people this year? any research mag subscriptions?
<XxDoubleHelixX> etc etc
<BJKlein> My new year's resolution: Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing
<ImmortalPhilosopher> good
<BJKlein> second resolution: read everything on singinst
<Gordon> while I think it's all silly, here's my goal for the new year (aside from less sunlight ;-)): worship Google more adamantly and with greater fervor
<Eliezer> yes! all hail Google!
<Gordon> now, let's see, who would make a good sacrifice to Google?
* BJKlein falls at the feet of the all mighty
<John_Ventureville> All praise Hotbot!
<ChrisRovner> You might enjoy this: http://google.blogspace.com/
* Nus makes googling noises
<Eliezer> hm... let's sacrifice John to Google
<John_Ventureville> no!!!
<Gordon> obviously not virgins; they make up a lot of the worshipers
<BJKlein> google would put you under by a quick freeze
<John_Ventureville> whew!
<Boris> google may change in 2003 dramatically
<Boris> to not so good
<John_Ventureville> how?
<Nus> Heresy!
<BJKlein> yeh Boris, how so?
<Gordon> aie: http://google.blogsp...archives/000342
<Boris> IPO
<Gordon> we'll now have our own Good Book
<ChrisRovner> It might join the stock market. Then the shareholders would rule
<ChrisRovner> And the public would lose
<Boris> I have read an interview with one of the founder. they got some troubles with thier philosophy
<Gordon> if they do it, I'll be at their doorstep with many sacrifices
<BJKlein> ehh that might be a good thing, hard to say
<John_Ventureville> Next to Google, who really has the best search engine?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Hey, 4:15 am here, time to sleep so...
<ImmortalPhilosopher> bye
<John_Ventureville> Yahoo? HotBot? DogPile?
<BJKlein> Ok..Take Care ImmortalPhilosopher
<John_Ventureville> byr!
<John_Ventureville> I meant bye!
<Boris> alltheweb, suprisingly could pop out from
<ImmortalPhilosopher>
<John_Ventureville> *sleep is for the weak*
<BJKlein> so there's other search engines?
<John_Ventureville> why....
<John_Ventureville> yes!
<Gordon> there's a google competitor out there; it was featured on Slashdot some time ago
<Boris> No, I don't say that google is in danger, just some things wil change with them
<Boris> ahh, I can't find URL with that info
<BJKlein> so John_Ventureville, what's new at the Creek?
<John_Ventureville> We are actually open now!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<BJKlein> and where's the timeship going to be built?
<John_Ventureville> It was a longtime in coming.
<BJKlein> fantastic
<John_Ventureville> The Timeship will be built right across the street from us.
<BJKlein> no way!
<John_Ventureville> *I'm Kidding!!*
<John_Ventureville> I wish!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<BJKlein> heh, though so
<John_Ventureville> Current thinking is it will be near Disney World.
<BJKlein> I sent them an email telling them that Birmingham would be the perfect place
<John_Ventureville> *wince!*
<BJKlein> low property taxes.. good location etc..
<BJKlein> no responce
<John_Ventureville> I think Anchorage, Alaska is the place for it.
<BJKlein> that's to close to sea level I would think?
<John_Ventureville> My mother and stepfather would just love to tour it and shake their heads the whole time.
<John_Ventureville> Fairbanks would be the safer place for it.
<Boris> So John you're a kind of full time over there?
<John_Ventureville> full time?
<BJKlein> Fairbanks gets earthquakes
<Boris> full time employee
<John_Ventureville> No Tsunami's though!
<BJKlein> heh.. Birmingham has none of both
<John_Ventureville> Yes, I am the General Manager-in-training.
<John_Ventureville> Currently being tutored in business management by the master.
<John_Ventureville> I am his loyal apprentice.
<Boris> cool, have seen your pictures
<John_Ventureville> what did you think?
<BJKlein> do you guys have any patrons yet?
<John_Ventureville> patrons??
<John_Ventureville> I don't understand.
<BJKlein> it's a nice place.. any people staying at the lodge
<John_Ventureville> Oh, I see.
<John_Ventureville> Not right now.
<John_Ventureville> It has been fairly slow, but on purpose actually.
<John_Ventureville> The owners chose not to advertise in the beginning so we would have time to work the bugs out of the system before things got busy.
<John_Ventureville> In a few weeks the advertising/marketing blitz will commence!
<XxDoubleHelixX> Who do you work for?
<John_Ventureville> And by that time I will be ready .
<John_Ventureville> David Pizer, a former vice president of Alcor.
<BJKlein> "Resolution: Resolve to perform what you ought, perform without fail what you resolve."
<BJKlein> - Ben Franklin
<John_Ventureville> He has been a business entreprenaur his entire life and Alcor greatly benefitted from that during his time with them.
<Boris> Do you need some help, John. F.g. in spreading your info?
<John_Ventureville> I will accept any help I can get.
<XxDoubleHelixX> so the building that you will be working at is an extension of alcor?
<Boris> Prcisely: are you planning to make a video?
<Eliezer> God grant me the strength do what I must, the wisdom to know what I must do, and the rationality to realize that God is not the key person
<John_Ventureville> There are no current plans for a video.
<John_Ventureville> What would you suggest?
<Boris> you make a video, I spread it in the internet.
<BJKlein> "God is a placebo for your own mortality."
<BJKlein> <BJKlein> [Robert Barron]
<John_Ventureville> BJ, I disagree, but anyway.
<John_Ventureville> Boris, I LIKE that idea!
<John_Ventureville> Would you charge for this?
<Boris> c'mon.
<John_Ventureville> lol
<Boris> assuming your commercial is free - not ;ole alcor material from the last conference
<John_Ventureville> cool
<Boris> I mean what they did is against all marketing rules - to sell advertising to people
<John_Ventureville> My email is starman2050@lycos.com
<Boris> instead of spread it like hell for free since there are many ways to do it
<John_Ventureville> I had really wanted to attend the Alcor conference but things were so busy here in preparation for our opening.
<Boris> I am on cryonics list for years
so I know. I am just lurking there<John_Ventureville> ahhh!
<John_Ventureville> cool
<XxDoubleHelixX> whats this place called?
<John_Ventureville> please let me explain....
* Nus is going to sleep.
<Nus> Byebye everyone
<BJKlein> See ya Nusy/
<John_Ventureville> bye!
<ImmortalPhilosopher> bye
<John_Ventureville> presently The Creekside Preserve Lodge and cabins are what we offer...
<John_Ventureville> and over time we will build many more cabins to generate more income on our 34 acres...
<John_Ventureville> in time as support grows we will actually commence(slowly) to build Ventureville...
<John_Ventureville> which will be the world's first real cryonics community!
<XxDoubleHelixX> oh now I get it
<BJKlein> anybody speak german here?
*ImmortalPhilosopher* How is your reckon about my intro?
<John_Ventureville> It will have both younger people there to build up cryonics in various ways and also retirees who actually need physical and legal protection from those who might turn on them like vultures to see they never are cryonically suspended.
<John_Ventureville> David has seen so many cases of the latter.
<John_Ventureville> : (
<XxDoubleHelixX> really?
<John_Ventureville> YES
<John_Ventureville> Sometimes "loving children" turn out to be not so loving.
<Guest8927169> i know a little german
<BJKlein> ich frage mich nur, warum wir unsere power splitten auf 2 foren
<John_Ventureville> Achtung!!
<John_Ventureville> *all the German I know*
<XxDoubleHelixX> interesting. so, you are into gycobiology then?
<XxDoubleHelixX> well, let me re-phrase that
<John_Ventureville> ?
<BJKlein> can anyone translate that?
<Guest8927170> i often ask myself, why we split our power on two fronts?
<BJKlein> ahh. ok..
<BJKlein> it's a forum post..
<XxDoubleHelixX> your research will encorporate large ammounts of research into the hibernation of bears along with why artic cod can swim in -10c water
<BJKlein> I think I know where he's headed with this
<John_Ventureville> ?
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.o...p?act...&hl=&s=
<Guest8927170> sounds like a reference to hitler attacking russia
<BJKlein> lol
<XxDoubleHelixX> for cryonics I mean Vent
<John_Ventureville> Ventureville will not be a research facility but instead be a community of cryonicists mainly doing p.r. type work both local and global.
<John_Ventureville> We want to be on good terms with our neighbors in the area!
<John_Ventureville> : )
<MichaelA> heh
<eg0mech> i ask myself only, why we split our power on two forums
<MichaelA> Which two forums?
<XxDoubleHelixX> ok, I misunderstood the 'young people' thing
<John_Ventureville> ?
<eg0mech> care of babelfish
<XxDoubleHelixX> I got it now
<eg0mech> someone needs to make a babelfish bot for irc like that google bot
<MichaelA> Is the google bot currently online?
<John_Ventureville> It will probably be about ten years until Ventureville is fully realized.
<eg0mech> doesn't seem so, michael
<John_Ventureville> We do not plan to go into deep debt to develop it!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<MichaelA> John, how many individuals are currently involved?
<John_Ventureville> Myself, David and his wife...
<John_Ventureville> and one employee!
<MichaelA> Full-time folks are expensive
<John_Ventureville> yes
* BJKlein wishes for google bot again
<MichaelA> Have you tried to get interested volunteers to move to the area?
<John_Ventureville> our only regular employee is a maid
<MichaelA> Yeah BJK, I see no reason for it not to be here permanently
<John_Ventureville> Michael, we are not going that far yet but we have had several serious inquiries which may bear fruit five to ten years from now.
<John_Ventureville> This project will take time, but it will happen.
<BJKlein> I believe it was nrv's friend that had it.. i'll look into getting this again myself
<MichaelA> Yeah, send me any nice links you find
<MichaelA> I'm sure a variety of bots are available
<MichaelA> John, is there a main Venturism mailing list where discussion regarding this project will take place over the course of the next few years?
<John_Ventureville> We have a newsletter.
<ImmortalPhilosopher> wow
<ImmortalPhilosopher> that's cool
<John_Ventureville> I have to go now.
<John_Ventureville> *time to eat!*
<ImmortalPhilosopher> o
<MichaelA> Take care John
<ImmortalPhilosopher> I had to sleep about 7hours ago
<John_Ventureville> check out...
<John_Ventureville> http://www.venturist.org/
<John_Ventureville> Go Venturists!
<John_Ventureville> In time we will be the next great power in the transhumanist realm.
<ImmortalPhilosopher> nice
<ImmortalPhilosopher> sounds
<John_Ventureville> thank you!
<John_Ventureville> : )
<ImmortalPhilosopher> But I don't undarstand "Venturism" ?
<MichaelA> You should try to open up a channel of communication with the WTA, then
<MichaelA> www.transhumanism.org
<ImmortalPhilosopher> can you explain?
<MichaelA> If you haven't already, of course
<John_Ventureville> Our channel of communication has so far been mainly with Alcor.
<MichaelA> http://www.venturist.org/about.htm
<ImmortalPhilosopher> I have.
<John_Ventureville> They have had several gatherings here.
<ImmortalPhilosopher> viewed
<ImmortalPhilosopher> realy
<John_Ventureville> I have to eat now.
<ImmortalPhilosopher> can you show any of them?
<John_Ventureville> Some very sweet gal cooked me dinner and delivered it to me.
<MichaelA> heh
<MichaelA> Enjoy
<ImmortalPhilosopher> I had to go to sleep 7 hours ago
<John_Ventureville> I have a rough life here.
<John_Ventureville> : )
<MichaelA> My grandmother tried to get me to eat eggs today, that was annoying
<John_Ventureville> lol
<John_Ventureville> But she loves you!
<MichaelA> Yes, she certainly does
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Aren't they included in diet?
<John_Ventureville> bye for now
<ImmortalPhilosopher> whats "gal" ?
<MichaelA> Immortal: not mine, haha
<MichaelA> "gal" = woman
<ImmortalPhilosopher> name me as "IP"
<ImmortalPhilosopher> thx
<MichaelA> Ok
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Where did BJK disappeared?
<BJKlein> im here
<ImmortalPhilosopher> why don't talk?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> to private
<ImmortalPhilosopher> When is chat closed?
<MichaelA> I'm not talking because I'm reading your post, IP
<MichaelA> The chat is closed whenever we stop talking
<ImmortalPhilosopher> ahh
<ImmortalPhilosopher> ...
<XxDoubleHelixX> bla bla bla
<ImmortalPhilosopher> :D
<BJKlein> ImmortalPhilosopher, you can ask me here.
<ImmortalPhilosopher> k
<ImmortalPhilosopher> How can I paste?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> hmm..
<ImmortalPhilosopher> no chances
<ImmortalPhilosopher> let's type
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Even if you are healthy aging continues, agree?
<MichaelA> IP: yes
<MichaelA> Most definitely
<ImmortalPhilosopher> so
<MichaelA> Interested in telomeres, IP?
<BJKlein> yes... but, eating low carb, and healthy is still important
<ImmortalPhilosopher> why are you discussing diets?
<MichaelA> Being healthy still can be a positive thing
<BJKlein> stoping aging is more than just caping telomeres
<ImmortalPhilosopher> telomeres - important
<BJKlein> one must carefully consider all fronts in the battle against aging and death
<ImmortalPhilosopher> so what's the first step?
<BJKlein> depends on what your goal is...
<MichaelA> The first step is promoting the philosophy in general, I'd say
<MichaelA> Get the attention of more people
<XxDoubleHelixX> orgaTrans mechTrans cryoTrans pick one
<BJKlein> decide on what you're good at and focus on helping in that way in the pursuite of immortality
<MichaelA> Double: those aren't the only choices
<MichaelA> wb Rotaerk
<XxDoubleHelixX> ok then expand
<MichaelA> What's on your mind
<MichaelA> DH: the expansion gets complicated
<ImmortalPhilosopher> I think we should look more to genetics.
<XxDoubleHelixX> like the cryo rely on the mech for the nano
<MichaelA> IP: have you ever heard of "nanotechnology"?
<BJKlein> on a personal front, i'd suggest taking care of your health so that you'll be more effective on the public front
<MichaelA> Taking care of your health and reading as much literature as possible
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Michael> can you decide your msn account exactly? I'll add you
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Yes I know nano
<ImmortalPhilosopher> What nano has to do with it?
<MichaelA> Ok, make it MichaelAnissimov
<MichaelA> Nanotechnology can be used to stop aging, as well
<ImmortalPhilosopher> what server?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> hotmail, msn?
<MichaelA> Oh, are you talking about my email address, IP?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> hm, really never thought...about nano
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Michael> YES
<MichaelA> I don't use hotmail or msn for email, but I will use MSN for messanging
<ImmortalPhilosopher> ok
<MichaelA> My email address is altima@yifan.net
<ImmortalPhilosopher> So
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Youl
<MichaelA> Nanotechnology, masses and masses of atomic-scale machinery
<ImmortalPhilosopher> You'll have new e-mail
<Rotaerk> does anyone here understand lambda calculus?
<MichaelA> Ok, why not, I'll create MichaelAnissimov@hotmail.com, if it's still available
<haploid> whuddup
<MichaelA> Haploid: greetings
<BJKlein> Welcome Back haploid
<haploid> Topic ?
<BJKlein> open for now..
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Michael>thanx
<BJKlein> but New Year's Resolutions is good
<XxDoubleHelixX> lambda sounds like a phage
<haploid> What is the status of Eliezer's fellowship ?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> member
<ImmortalPhilosopher>
<BJKlein> as of right now.. I believe it will end in Feb
<BJKlein> unless another doner steps in, and I believe he's moving to CA
<haploid> What are the contingency plans for continuing the work? Ad-hoc/open-source model ?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> How can you hold an institute if BJK-Alabama, Mich-CA ?
<MichaelA> We're largely a virtual organization
<ImmortalPhilosopher> no office?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Can anybody explain "singularity" ?
<MichaelA> www.singinst.org
<MichaelA> No physical office, nope
<MichaelA> It would be an unnecessary expense
<MichaelA> We can use Bruce's address if need be
<ImmortalPhilosopher> k
<BJKlein> ImmInst is a non-profit based in Birmingha, Alabama
<BJKlein> Birmingham*
<ImmortalPhilosopher> yeh
<ImmortalPhilosopher> How is your bussines?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> stock trading?
* BJKlein pays all the bills
<BJKlein> keeps uncle sam happy
<ImmortalPhilosopher> working with NY wall street ?
<MichaelA> Immortalists have a tendency to view political systems as simply constraints we operate under
<BJKlein> no at home internet personal account
<ImmortalPhilosopher> yes
<ImmortalPhilosopher> I know
<ImmortalPhilosopher> like my father does
<ImmortalPhilosopher> so you are professional investor..?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> or smth.
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Have singinst a chat?
<MichaelA> Yes, they do
<MichaelA> www.sl4.org
<ImmortalPhilosopher> oh
<MichaelA> It's on this same server, #sl4, held once a month
<ImmortalPhilosopher> yes
<ChrisRovner> sl4 and singinst are independent organizations, actually
<MichaelA> Oh, right, my error
<JeremiahB> bruce, do you day trade?
<MichaelA> Is sl4 considered an "organization"?
<BJKlein> depends
<ChrisRovner> They are closely related, of course
<ChrisRovner> MichaelA: I guess so. An informal organization at least
<JeremiahB> i ask because i was thinking about trying to develop a day trading expert system
<BJKlein> interesting.. kurzweil is doing the same
<Rotaerk> anyone know Lambda Calculus?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> spreading investment
<XxDoubleHelixX> I sure dont, but does it have to do with the type of phage?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Rot: just heard about it
<XxDoubleHelixX> kurz is looking into daytrading?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> hm
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Heard determinism?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> such philosophy
<MichaelA> Yep
<ImmortalPhilosopher> cool
<MichaelA> I'm a determinist, for the most part
<MichaelA> Well, actually I'm a hardcore determinist
<MichaelA>
<ImmortalPhilosopher> verry happy
<BJKlein> kurz is developing software to read the stock market..
<JeremiahB> i'd be interested in any insight you'd have to offer on the subject, bruce.
<XxDoubleHelixX> ever see the movie Pi?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Mich> Do you feel controled by nature laws?
<JeremiahB> that's not what i'm trying to do, DH
<XxDoubleHelixX> heh, next thing you know he has to burn the number
<MichaelA> I don't feel "controlled"
<JeremiahB> I'm under no illusions that it's possible to predict the stock market.
<ImmortalPhilosopher> MichA> why no?
<XxDoubleHelixX> ok, so reading is how different?
<MichaelA> Just because the laws of nature dictate the course of my life on a very fine-grained level doesn't mean that higher-level decisions aren't "mine" in an important sense
<MichaelA> I don't define myself as something independent from physical law
<Rotaerk> conexion estupido
<XxDoubleHelixX> we said no to your question
<XxDoubleHelixX> Rot
<XxDoubleHelixX> or at least I did
<BJKlein> http://www.fatkat.com/
<Rotaerk> ok
<ImmortalPhilosopher> MichA: so how can you act without reason?
<MichaelA> I do act with reason
<MichaelA> Reason is a subset of physical law and matter
<ImmortalPhilosopher> that means
<ImmortalPhilosopher> you aren't free
<MichaelA> No, it means I recognize the universe for what it is
<BJKlein> "FatKat Inc. was created to build industry-leading tools for Quantitatively based investing. Its founder, Ray Kurzweil, is a world leader in pattern recognition techniques. "
<MichaelA> Prescientific notions involving reason operating outside of physical law are mistaken, in my view
<MichaelA> Physical law happens, there are no extraphysical forces, you can be free, free as you'd like and still accept this
<ImmortalPhilosopher> hmm.
<ImmortalPhilosopher> don't agree
<Boris> was nice talking to you all. see you!
<MichaelA> Tata Boris
<MichaelA> What do you think "free" means, IP?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> You deny fate?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> free-no fate of laws
<MichaelA> The laws which determine our fate are so complex that we can't comprehend them well enough to predict the future accurately
<ChrisRovner> ImmortalPhilosopher: "fate" and "free will" and not necessarily incompatible. The computations going on in your brain could be predicted by someone who has a correct and accurate model of your brain. But that doesn't mean that you can't make counscious choices. Your choices will still be based on "free will" *and* on "fate"
<MichaelA> There is a difference between "fate" in the human social sense, and "fate" in the atomic-physical-law sense
<ImmortalPhilosopher> 2nd variant
<ImmortalPhilosopher> I suppose
<ImmortalPhilosopher> So you deny physical fate?
<BJKlein> I think you have to ask yourself is intelligence something special, something different from physical matter...
<ImmortalPhilosopher> no
<ImmortalPhilosopher> I dont think so
<ImmortalPhilosopher> and you?
<BJKlein> well, you can have intelligence without the specific atoms in your brain now..
<BJKlein> every seven years we refresh the atoms in our body
<Eliezer> intelligence is a pattern in physical matter
<ImmortalPhilosopher> ok
<ImmortalPhilosopher> and?
<Eliezer> the phenomenon you call "free will" is a part of that pattern
<Eliezer> it doesn't defy physics; it requires physics
<Eliezer> your choices are a part of the physical process that determines the fate of the universe
<Eliezer> if your choices were different, the fate would be different
<Eliezer> that dependency is what you call "free will"; it's what makes your choices matter
<Eliezer> and what binds the future to the past, making choices matter, is physics
<Eliezer> if the future is random, without dependency on the past, there is no free will
<ImmortalPhilosopher> confusing
<ImmortalPhilosopher> ...
<ImmortalPhilosopher> Just I say that we obey the physics laws
<Eliezer> free will doesn't mean that your will defies fate
<ImmortalPhilosopher> that annoys me
<Eliezer> free will means that your will is a part of fate
<BJKlein> heh... ImmortalPhilosopher is falling into the same trap that grabs me from time to time
<Eliezer> in participating within the universe, we gain the ability to make choices that matter, and moral responsibility
<ImmortalPhilosopher> yeh
<ImmortalPhilosopher> BJK> understood me
<Eliezer> if our choices were not part of fate, we could not do that
<ImmortalPhilosopher> ok
<ImmortalPhilosopher> sorry
<ImmortalPhilosopher> that's true
<ImmortalPhilosopher> but it isn't freedom
<Eliezer> there is only one past
<Eliezer> are you unfree because, once you make your choices, you have made only one choice?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> yes
<ImmortalPhilosopher> because
<ImmortalPhilosopher> I couldn't do other ways
<ImmortalPhilosopher> I must do only 1variant
<Eliezer> let's suppose that "the future is not determined", but once you *do* make a choice, it becomes part of history
<Eliezer> and there is only one history
<Eliezer> many futures, but only one history
<Eliezer> is that "unfree will" because there is only one past?
<ImmortalPhilosopher> and only 1 future in my opinion
<ImmortalPhilosopher>
<ImmortalPhilosopher> hell
<ImmortalPhilosopher> I really have to go to bed
<Eliezer> if you are controlled by forces outside yourself, that is coercion
<Eliezer> if you are controlled by forces within yourself, that is freedom
<Eliezer> your mistake lies in thinking of "physics" as something outside yourself
<Eliezer> so that if "physics determines the future", you feel as if you are being controlled
<Eliezer> everything is physics
<Eliezer> including you
<BJKlein> nice example
<Eliezer> for you to control yourself
<Eliezer> the future *must* be controlled by physics
<ImmortalPhilosopher> stop
<Eliezer> because you are a pattern within physics
<Eliezer> ok
<ImmortalPhilosopher> this
<ImmortalPhilosopher> won't
<ImmortalPhilosopher> convince me
<BJKlein> lol
<MichaelA> the annoyance will fade after time ;D
<ImmortalPhilosopher> show your CV or intro, ok?
<Eliezer> eh?
<I
