23 replies to this topic

[Lister]

My friend and I have a movie night once or twice a month were we go to the theatre, buy tickets for 3 hours later, go to a restaurant, eat and discuss philosophy. One of the topics we found ourselves upon was the idea of the existence of multiple universes and how that could affect our consciousness.

Though I don’t have an extensive understanding of multiple universes I’ll try my best to make do and maybe you guys can add in corrections if you see fit to do so.

Before going on you may want to watch this video about understanding the 10^th dimension:
http://www.tenthdime.../medialinks.php

There are an infinite number of universes where every possible event can and will occur and may even have already occurred. That means there is a version of you right now that decided to read another post and may miss this one entirely. Also if you’re driving and have a crash there is another version of you where you didn’t have that crash.

The idea that there is an entire universe out there that exists separate from ours and the only difference is that in that universe you read a different posts than this one; well it all seems a bit absurd doesn’t it? Are you trying to say that my decision to read a post created an entire universe!? Well the details to that are beyond me. For the sake of this discussion though let’s assume that this is true.

Now, emotionally there is something called “Ghosting” (not a technical term) where you step away from yourself and view events and actions as if it were happening to someone else. I can do this fairly well and it is the reason that I can walk into very high pressure environments without becoming stressed; I “Ghost” and thus am viewing things indirectly. So what does this have to do with anything?

If this multiple universe idea were to be true why can’t I Ghost and refocus on another me in another universe? Well perhaps we can assume that I’m not evolved enough to do so or maybe I’m glued to this version of me through my “mortal coil”.

OK, now let’s say I die. Let’s say I drop my coffee while driving, I go to pick it up and drift over the line into oncoming traffic; I get hit by a truck and die. At that point am I still glued to this version of me? For arguments sake let’s say that I am now unstuck; free to move in multiple dimensions.

Now my consciousness is unstuck what’s to stop me from refocusing on a version of myself where I didn’t have the accident? As I don’t have a mind anymore it’s pretty reasonable to assume that I won’t remember making the journey and as the only difference is the lack of an accident; I probably won’t even notice the shift.

So if we flesh out this idea we find:

• When you die your consciousness is immediately freed of a physical bond to this universe.
• There are other versions of us where the only thing different is we didn’t die.
• As we don’t know what it means to travel interdimensionally our disembodied minds transfer to the most familiar location we can find; the other version of ourselves where we didn’t die.
• As we had no physical body during that transfer no memory of the event remains.
• And we go on living without knowing that we in fact, died.

One could say that this is happening all the time. 2012 was the end of the universe and we all died, transferred to a universe where the world doesn’t end on 2012 and we continue to live. You could even stretch this theory out several dozen times over and say that you die 30 times each day on your way to work, because of asteroids or terrorist attacks or car accidents and you never know.

And this brings us to immortality. If there are an infinite number of universes it’s reasonable to assume that there is one where aging has been cured already. In this case you will eventually transfer to that universe if you don’t make it here. And so under this theory we’re all already immortal.

You could even go farther than that and say that we’re not actually attached to any one universe and our mood determines which outcomes we view. If we’re having a particularly bad day we may say to ourselves “can it get any worse?” In response to this we imagine a situation where it could be worse, refocus on a universe where that worse situation occurs and that’s our day. So then we control which universe we see but as we’re not that advanced our emotions and subconscious does all the work and we really have no direct control or conscious understanding of it.

I bring this idea up with people sometimes and I get this weird understanding look. It’s as though we all understood this to be true but it’s sort of in our blind spot so to say.

What do you guys think?

[Turnbuckle]

If you die in one universe, why would you ghost another you in another universe? You already know what you're doing, so why not pick someone else?

[Marios Kyriazis]

A 'Universe' is something that contains everything. There cannot be many universes because the space they occupy is called the 'universe' by definition.

[Turnbuckle]

A 'Universe' is something that contains everything. There cannot be many universes because the space they occupy is called the 'universe' by definition.

Semantics makes a poor argument. At one time our solar system and the fixed stars were believed to be everything, and then the galaxy was everything. Every few hundred years we realize we've vastly underestimated what's out there.

[Marios Kyriazis]

A 'Universe' is something that contains everything. There cannot be many universes because the space they occupy is called the 'universe' by definition.

Semantics makes a poor argument. At one time our solar system and the fixed stars were believed to be everything, and then the galaxy was everything. Every few hundred years we realize we've vastly underestimated what's out there.

No, really I mean 'everything'. I don't put any limits. I am not saying that what we now believe to be our universe is the final frontier. Everything that can possibly exist is within The Universe. It is necessary to find different terms to describe what you are trying to say.

[Lister]

Right! You could say that everything does exist within our Universe; and then sitting but millimeters from this universe are another universe, and another, and another (M-Theory?) If we imagine our universe as a bubble where everything that we understand to exist does, why can’t there be other bubbles?

See the problem is that to fully understand multiple dimensions we would have to go a great distance into quantum physics and the like. Sadly before you really got past the door I’d already be lost. So I’m more or less using the idea of multiple universes as an assumed truth similar to the way I use the sun going up and down as an assumed truth to plan my day on; even though I don’t have a full understanding of why that happens either (though I have a pretty good idea).

So if you have another way to call the multiverse what it is without mixing up semantics then please say it and we’ll use that.

Turnbuckle, the only way I can think of to answer your question is to say that as a disembodied consciousness we would be confused and lost. In this state it would be natural for us to seek out a comfortable place which I have assumed would be the closest universe to our own with us still alive in it.

Do you ever see something and are shocked that it is that way? Have you ever driven down a road that you know where it goes but suddenly it ends and it appears to have never lead anywhere? There’s many ways to explain that away without all this multiple universe stuff but it’s a possibility that it did lead somewhere in a universe you recently left.

We could also say that you just float aimlessly until you land on another version of yourself in a world which is radically different. But as you have no memory of the passage or your past life then you wouldn’t notice the differences; it would all appear normal.

[Turnbuckle]

A 'Universe' is something that contains everything. There cannot be many universes because the space they occupy is called the 'universe' by definition.

Semantics makes a poor argument. At one time our solar system and the fixed stars were believed to be everything, and then the galaxy was everything. Every few hundred years we realize we've vastly underestimated what's out there.

No, really I mean 'everything'. I don't put any limits. I am not saying that what we now believe to be our universe is the final frontier. Everything that can possibly exist is within The Universe. It is necessary to find different terms to describe what you are trying to say.

Your definition is not everyone's. But some refer to a multiverse, and one day what we call the universe may be downgraded.

[Turnbuckle]

Turnbuckle, the only way I can think of to answer your question is to say that as a disembodied consciousness we would be confused and lost. In this state it would be natural for us to seek out a comfortable place which I have assumed would be the closest universe to our own with us still alive in it.

Then we might have actual ghosts who don't want to leave the familiar terrain of their homes, or those more adventurous and less confused ghosts might become walk-ins--a once popular new-age concept. What you are referring to is, perhaps, an auto-walk-in.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 06 February 2013 - 08:47 PM.

[corb]

Multiple Universe Based Immortality

A very scientifically unsound observation. You'd still die of old age.
I really don't like getting into these metaphysical discussions, they're not based on logic.

You consciousness is just a chemical reaction how would that transfer to another universe ? Why ?
This is pretty much the rebirth afterlife mythos, but with the slight twist of continuing your life from a checkpoint. Like in a computer game.
Makes as much sense as utopia afterlife to me. If there are endless universes there are endless variations of people. Why would there be copies of you in the other universes ?

[Lister]

Multiple Universe Based Immortality

A very scientifically unsound observation. You'd still die of old age.
I really don't like getting into these metaphysical discussions, they're not based on logic.

You consciousness is just a chemical reaction how would that transfer to another universe ? Why ?
This is pretty much the rebirth afterlife mythos, but with the slight twist of continuing your life from a checkpoint. Like in a computer game.
Makes as much sense as utopia afterlife to me. If there are endless universes there are endless variations of people. Why would there be copies of you in the other universes ?

To be fair we’re talking outside of the box here. I would love to bring hard core science into it but likely that would leave me out.

I’ll try and answer your questions as best I can:

• You would die of old age but then refocus on a universe where you didn’t die at that age but later… this would continue until you refocused on a universe where you don’t die at all due to some unnatural cause (nor natural though we can only speculate).
• Your consciousness is electrical signals in your brain; it’s energy! As Energy cannot be created or destroyed it should in theory continue to exist after you’re dead. You might say “yes and if you were to burn my corps you could retrieve said energy” and you’d be right. But it has been theorized that our brains are in fact quantum computers and thus our brains may be linked to every other version of ourselves in the multiverse.
• The other universes exist based on observation, chance and events. Everything that can occur does in the multiverse. This means there is an infinite number of you in an infinite number of universes. They’re not copies; they are all you. In a sense you are the sum total of all the possible versions of you in all the possible universes.

In that sense we all exist in the higher dimensions. We're not obviously conscious of the other versions of ourselves in other universes as well as the versions of us from the past and the future, so we're stuck moving around in the third dimension. This means we move around in the higher dimensions but are unaware of this movement.

[Marios Kyriazis]

Right! You could say that everything does exist within our Universe; and then sitting but millimeters from this universe are another universe, and another, and another (M-Theory?) If we imagine our universe as a bubble where everything that we understand to exist does, why can’t there be other bubbles?

Because these bubbles would still occupy space, and therefore that space would still be called The Universe.

The whole thing is an ever-increasing fractal, which nevertheless is still one 'object'. This is like trying to put a limit on infinity.Infinity by definition, is infinite, there cannot be a limit on it. There cannot be may infinities.

Therefore, whatever happens, it happens in this universe and we are all bound by it. As a consequence, I can't see how multiple-universe immortality would work.

[Turnbuckle]

The whole thing is an ever-increasing fractal, which nevertheless is still one 'object'. This is like trying to put a limit on infinity. Infinity by definition, is infinite, there cannot be a limit on it. There cannot be may infinities.

Again, as when you tried to argue based on a definition of universe, your conception of infinity is naïve. There are degrees of infinity in set theory, with some infinities being larger than others. See Cantor's Theorem, for instance.

[Marios Kyriazis]

The whole thing is an ever-increasing fractal, which nevertheless is still one 'object'. This is like trying to put a limit on infinity. Infinity by definition, is infinite, there cannot be a limit on it. There cannot be may infinities.

Again, as when you tried to argue based on a definition of universe, your conception of infinity is naïve. There are degrees of infinity in set theory, with some infinities being larger than others. See Cantor's Theorem, for instance.

Then they should not be called infinities.

[Lister]

Then they should not be called infinities.

It is difficult to imagine something as broadly and vaguely as the idea I’m proposing no doubt. You would need to view things without fixed points. Imagination then is the only tool capable of coming to grips with the weirdo idea that I’m suggesting.

Arguing semantics or attempting to draw out this idea in firm unchanging lines is probably foolish. This idea is beyond any certainty and is more or less something fun to speculate over. So really if you don’t enjoy it, it’s probably not a good idea to mull it over too much.

I wonder though if the space between universes could be something other than space… The idea that something can exist somewhere without space for it to exist seems a brain twisting idea…

Is it possible for there to be space between Universes that isn’t space as we understand?

[Marios Kyriazis]

See here for a full discussion on the matter: http://www.vincegiul...g&creat4-08.htm . I discussed some aspects of this with Vince here (there are other discussions on that page) http://www.elpistheory.info/page12.htm.

However, I can't see any value in the thought of immortality through multiple universes. It is not much different than beliefs in reincarnation, resurrection after death, religious re-birth etc. Biologically, you either live or die, and this is the end of it. It may be fun to discuss other approaches, and I encourage the discussion, however the fact remains that when you die, you cease to exist and you won't be aware of anything.

[platypus]

Again, as when you tried to argue based on a definition of universe, your conception of infinity is naïve. There are degrees of infinity in set theory, with some infinities being larger than others. See Cantor's Theorem, for instance.

Then they should not be called infinities.

The set of integers is countably infinite while the set of real numbers is uncountably infinite. Both sets are infinitely large but the latter is way bigger (because there are an infinite number of real numbers between any two real numbers, which is not true for integers).

[Turnbuckle]

Ghosting and traveling to other universes in other dimensions implies that at least part of the self can exist without the body, and once you have that, you already have something like immortality. There's no need to join up with another body just like your own where there is already a doppelgänger in control. You could wait your turn and take over a fetus when the time is ripe--reincarnation--assuming that there was some desire to return to the physical world. But as for the original idea, perhaps something like this happens on occasion. And when it only partially happens, perhaps it explains some cases of autoscopy and heautoscopy.

[Lister]

Ghosting and traveling to other universes in other dimensions implies that at least part of the self can exist without the body, and once you have that, you already have something like immortality. There's no need to join up with another body just like your own where there is already a doppelgänger in control. You could wait your turn and take over a fetus when the time is ripe--reincarnation--assuming that there was some desire to return to the physical world. But as for the original idea, perhaps something like this happens on occasion. And when it only partially happens, perhaps it explains some cases of autoscopy and heautoscopy.

That’s assuming that the version of you in this universe is all there is of you. The energy that makes up you (religious people would call it a soul) plus you physical form is all there is. When you Ghost and move to another universe you join up with another version of you. That version is totally separate and a different person in every way.

Except; what if that’s not the case?

What if “you” are comprised of all the possible versions of you in all the possible universes? When the version of you here dies, a small piece of the pie ends; but there's infinite pies and infinite possible endings for all those pies including some pies that never end. My point is that perhaps there is much, much more to you than you could possible imagine.

I think this is another spiritual belief: the idea that you are comprised of more than just this version of you. On top of that life is comprised of all the possible life forms in all the possible universes and that massive consciousness is GOD, or was.

In a sense GOD was just a mass of consciousness that due to its lonely isolated nature blew itself apart forming the universe (and all other universes). Eventually due to advancement and merging of all of our consciousness’s combined with the possible heat death of the universe we too will fall to loneliness and expand rapidly to form our own universes. It’s an endless cycle.

By the way the idea that when you die there is nothing, I believe is a religious view. There’s no proof of what happens to you when you die so to assume a truth is the same whichever truth you assume.

[Turnbuckle]

That’s assuming that the version of you in this universe is all there is of you. The energy that makes up you (religious people would call it a soul) plus you physical form is all there is. When you Ghost and move to another universe you join up with another version of you. That version is totally separate and a different person in every way.

Except; what if that’s not the case?

What if “you” are comprised of all the possible versions of you in all the possible universes? When the version of you here dies, a small piece of the pie ends; but there's infinite pies and infinite possible endings for all those pies including some pies that never end. My point is that perhaps there is much, much more to you than you could possible imagine.

If you are all the possible versions, then you would have memories of things that never happened. And as you got older, this would get worse. If you lived substantially over 100, you'd become 99.99% non-you--unless all these dead people were only spectators, which would not be the ideal "immortality." As for real immortality, that has not happened with anyone yet and doesn't seem likely in the foreseeable future, so I suppose we were born too early.

[Lister]

“Real” immortality… I’m not so sure it’ll be that simple. You’re right we probably won’t see immortality in this life time in this universe; though if we find a way to unnaturally extend our lives it may become a stronger possibility (though that depends on how many decades you can withstand living old, frail an decrepit based on the hope of one day becoming young again).

We do have deja vu occasionally and I think some of those experiences are relevant (but not all). When I use the word “refocusing” that’s really the key to all this. When a bird is eating some bread and you’re watching it that scene can only last so long. When the bird flies away you look somewhere else and can then focus on anther event. This is the kind of instant shift I'm talking about.

Like watching this bird, living is just an extremely advanced form of observation. And the shift from this version of you to the next version of you would be just as quick as switching from that bird to another bird close by.

Picture yourself driving down a road at high speed. You see a car crossing the median heading towards you and you have no time. You hit the car head on and die. Right at that instant you swerve to the right and narrowly miss having a head on. You continue driving and you say to yourself “Man! Feel like I just died! My life flashed before my eyes!” In reality a version of you did die.

It doesn’t matter whether you retain memories or not because the only difference between these two versions of you is one swerves and lives, and one does not.

Edited by Lister, 09 February 2013 - 01:36 AM.

[Amichai Řezník]

This reminds me of Hugh Everett, whoc ame up with the Many-Worlds Interpetation, who asked his ashes to be thrown in the garbage after his untimely death at the age of 51. This was , of course, because he belived in quantum immortality.

Everett, who believed in quantum immortality,^[5][16] died suddenly at home on^[7] his bed in the night of July 18/19, 1982, of heart failure at the age of 51. Everett's obesity, frequent chain-smoking and alcohol drinking^[7] almost certainly contributed to this, although he seemed healthy at the time. A committed atheist,^{[5][page needed]} he had asked that his remains be disposed with the trash after his death. His wife kept his ashes in an urn for a few years, before complying with his wishes.^[5] About Hugh's death his son, Mark Oliver Everett, later said:

I think about how angry I was that my dad didn't take better care of himself. How he never went to a doctor, let himself become grossly overweight, smoked three packs a day, drank like a fish and never exercised. But then I think about how his colleague mentioned that, days before dying, my dad had said he lived a good life and that he was satisfied. I realize that there is a certain value in my father's way of life. He ate, smoked and drank as he pleased, and one day he just suddenly and quickly died. Given some of the other choices I'd witnessed, it turns out that enjoying yourself and then dying quickly is not such a hard way to go.^[17]

How stupid. Would'nt you say?
(Of course i'm not saying that Lister is thinking about suicide, I just meant that Everett's committment to this was foolish)

[Lister]

This reminds me of Hugh Everett, who came up with the Many-Worlds Interpetation, who asked his ashes to be thrown in the garbage after his untimely death at the age of 51. This was , of course, because he belived in quantum immortality.

How stupid. Would'nt you say?
(Of course i'm not saying that Lister is thinking about suicide, I just meant that Everett's committment to this was foolish)

Uh, I would say Hugh was a pretty smart guy in this instance. As his son put it “Given some of the other choices I'd witnessed, it turns out that enjoying yourself and then dying quickly is not such a hard way to go.” For an Atheist this kind of life and death seems idea to me. You’re not looking to broader bigger things; you just enjoy your life and pop off and that’s it.

I admire those that can live a simple insignificant life and be happy with it. If only everyone were so satisfied with so little a lot of our social problems would be solved. If his idea of quantum immortality gave him the ability to live such a simple life then good for him.

Sadly, I can’t live like that. I want to be healthy, I want to achieve great things, and I want to contribute. My life will always be one of great stress, pain, struggle, success, happiness, thrills, and so on. Accepting a lower level of happiness and contributing only enough to make that possible has to be a lot easier way to live...

Anyways if quantum immortality was right along the lines I’m thinking then he would have shifted over to another version where he didn’t die until that version died. And this would happen over and over again until he was old enough to really start suffering for his lifestyle. An immortal life comprised of unhealthy pain, suffering, and misery.

There is a dark side to this idea for sure. If we were to shift to universes fractionally close to this one, we may end up “dying a thousand deaths” so to say. Picture you’re in a hospital bed and you die only to shift to another world were you hang on for 10 seconds longer and die, then shift again, live 10 seconds longer, and on, and on. ‘

At that point one can only hope you don’t hold onto any memories from your past universe.

[Amichai Řezník]

This reminds me of Hugh Everett, who came up with the Many-Worlds Interpetation, who asked his ashes to be thrown in the garbage after his untimely death at the age of 51. This was , of course, because he belived in quantum immortality.

How stupid. Would'nt you say?
(Of course i'm not saying that Lister is thinking about suicide, I just meant that Everett's committment to this was foolish)

Uh, I would say Hugh was a pretty smart guy in this instance. As his son put it “Given some of the other choices I'd witnessed, it turns out that enjoying yourself and then dying quickly is not such a hard way to go.” For an Atheist this kind of life and death seems idea to me. You’re not looking to broader bigger things; you just enjoy your life and pop off and that’s it.

I admire those that can live a simple insignificant life and be happy with it. If only everyone were so satisfied with so little a lot of our social problems would be solved. If his idea of quantum immortality gave him the ability to live such a simple life then good for him.

Sadly, I can’t live like that. I want to be healthy, I want to achieve great things, and I want to contribute. My life will always be one of great stress, pain, struggle, success, happiness, thrills, and so on. Accepting a lower level of happiness and contributing only enough to make that possible has to be a lot easier way to live...

Anyways if quantum immortality was right along the lines I’m thinking then he would have shifted over to another version where he didn’t die until that version died. And this would happen over and over again until he was old enough to really start suffering for his lifestyle. An immortal life comprised of unhealthy pain, suffering, and misery.

There is a dark side to this idea for sure. If we were to shift to universes fractionally close to this one, we may end up “dying a thousand deaths” so to say. Picture you’re in a hospital bed and you die only to shift to another world were you hang on for 10 seconds longer and die, then shift again, live 10 seconds longer, and on, and on. ‘

At that point one can only hope you don’t hold onto any memories from your past universe.

Well it was'nt very smart given the fact that this experiment has no proof at all and is a sepculation. This is the life which we do have proof on(not really on philosophical terms, but you know what I mean), and he gave it away after 51 years.
BTW He seemed to have been in a universe of his own while he was alive too, as his son tells us in this documentary:



On topic. Don't you think "infinity" is a term we created in the limited confines of our consciousness and that's the only palce where it can be applied? Thin about it. When you're unconscious, the endless chain-of-events that is called "infinity" can't exist. The terms "begging" and "end" and therefore also "endless" only exist in consciousness. Am I saying stuff that only I can understand?

[Lister]

There probably are no infinite quantities. We could call the spaces between numbers infinite. We could divide things infinitely; but I doubt there is any real infinity such as infinite space or infinite time – or even infinite universes. There is just so much of all of that, that we call it infinite as that’s the best way of understanding it.

It’s interesting to see how many Black & White people exist on this site considering the subjective nature of longevity. It seems very popular for people to look at an idea and refuse to entertain it unless they feel it is based on certain terms.

Are there really such things as certain terms? Then are there certain terms you can base this idea of Multiple Universe Based Immortality on? I have a tough time looking at anything as being absolutely certain. The sun has risen and set every day for billions of years but tomorrow a black hole could change that pattern completely.

I don’t think you can base any idea on completely objective things because I don’t think such objective things exist.