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Why would Vyvanse increase my depression?

vyvanse stimulants depression

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#1 dasikins

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 04:07 PM


Why would Vyvanse cause my Depression to worsen? I am on Pristiq which subsided any symptoms I have had. It makes me more apathetic, but aided in my other symptoms.

Concerta just made me sleepy and ineffective at really any dose. Vyvanse helps keep me alert and helps with my concentration, but really makes me anti-social and depressed (especially at night.) When I take the weekend off I feel an increased sadness.

Why is this? Are there other meds that might be better? Has any one else experienced this?

I suffer from severe fatigue and finally after10 years am doing something about it. Until my MLST and MS testing are completed I need some help staying awake too. I am only adding this, because the stims not only help with my ADHD, but help keep me alert.

I am not interested in nootropics.

Thanks!

#2 nupi

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:11 PM

I forget, what's your diet like? Which other AD have you tried? (I found Effexor to be a decent AD but otherwise a pretty shitty drug to take)

Edited by nupi, 17 February 2013 - 07:12 PM.

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#3 dasikins

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 11:46 PM

My diet is amazing-literally I eat kale in my egg while omelet lol. I have tried Cymbalta and Effexor and Zoloft. Regardless of the AD I am on though, doesn't make sense why a stimulant would cause depression. Even the dopamine withdrawal from Coke didn't make me feel this bad (back in the day.)

#4 jadamgo

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:08 PM

Vyvanse is a long-acting stimulant and in some people it causes a very heavy rebound effect (a.k.a. short-term withdrawal syndrome). I loved Vyvanse the few times I took it, but the horrid crash it caused afterwards was simply intolerable. I would feel very sad, anxious, unmotivated, and exhausted whenever the Vyvanse would wear off.

The current theory about how it does this is that dextroamphetamine depletes dopamine (and possibly norepinephrine) far more effectively than cocaine or methylphenidate because unlike those drugs, amphetamines literally force dopamine out of the synaptic vesicles and into the neuronal cytoplasm. From the cytoplasm, they then force dopamine out into the synapse, and block it from re-entering. You don't want a lot of dopamine in the cytoplasm because it harms the brain cells, and because they're damaged, they take a long time to recover and return to normal functioning. Days, not hours.
Moderate doses of MPH (and, if I'm being honest, cocaine) don't cause this sort of short-term brain damage, and so their rebound effects are naturally far milder. Some people don't get any rebound at all from low-to-moderate doses of MPH.

How do you get around this? You can lower the dose of Vyvanse, you could try Adderall XR, you could try Focalin XR (which is more energetic than Concerta), or you could try Provigil (modafinil). Provigil in particular was designed to treat fatigue, but it was later found to be somewhat effective for improving concentration if you're fatigued, sleep deprived, or if you have any form of ADHD or Sluggish Cognitive Tempo. The only warning I'll give you about Provigil is that most docs start you out at a high dose, and many people here on this forum have found that it works far better if you start at 50mg per day or 100mg per day, because this lower dose still works very well, and does not cause you to build up a tolerance.

You said you aren't interested in nootropics, so I won't bore you with talk of stimulating racetams. But since the CILTEP stack isn't actually a nootropic, I certainly will suggest you check it out. It was designed to improve memory, but in most people it actually combats fatigue and improves awakeness more than anything else. It makes you feel energetic all day, sort of like Provigil but with fewer of the classic stimulant side effects like emotional/personality changes and tolerance buildup.

It's really inexpensive too -- I got my first month's supply for $20 from Amazon, and the next few months will each only cost $8. What you do is buy NOW brand Artichoke Extract, and some source of Forskolin. (I prefer NOW Diet Support, which is completely ineffective as a diet pill but makes a great source of forskolin for the CILTEP stack.) You take one forskolin pill in the morning, along with 1-2 artichoke capsules. Then you take another 1-2 artichoke capsules in the afternoon to keep you feeling awake and energetic through the evening. You have to be careful though, if you take too much artichoke too late in the day then you'll have trouble falling asleep.

Edited by jadamgo, 18 February 2013 - 05:12 PM.

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#5 dasikins

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:08 PM

Now this is what I was looking for. Honestly, sometimes I wonder if I should just do coke again. At least then I would be guaranteed a couple days of reprieve! Then again, the withdrawal from that is devastating in very different ways. For years when it was brought up I would remember how good it was. Nothing else was enjoyable until that dopamine addiction was out of my system. I think I felt like that for 7 years or more.

I really appreciate you taking the time to write this. Do you have any idea WHY it impacts some people, but not others. I know a lot of people who are able to take stims without this type of symptom.

I even took two days off of Vyvanse and starting it again today the positive effects were barely noticeable. I wish I knew WTF was wrong with me. I am miserably fatigued and until I can resolve the issues I am hesitant to find another job (we just relocated due to my fiances job so I have had some time to really look into everything.)

IDK if I have SCT-My ADHD may just be a result of another illness. Any dosage I have tried with Vyvanse produces subpar results. Even at 40 mg the crash is better, but after five days it's pretty harsh. Plus I don't get the additional help in fatigue symptoms. Overlapping has helped, but I don't think it's a long term solution.

I am just rambling because I am worried I will never feel better. Maybe I will look into the nootropics, but how are they any different than medicine? They might be more natural, but they are still manufactured. I am an ChE in manufacturing plants and without guidelines and restrictions that makes me incredibly leery of sanitation practices, ect.

#6 jadamgo

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:41 PM

Do you have any idea WHY it impacts some people, but not others. I know a lot of people who are able to take stims without this type of symptom.

I even took two days off of Vyvanse and starting it again today the positive effects were barely noticeable. I wish I knew WTF was wrong with me. I am miserably fatigued and until I can resolve the issues I am hesitant to find another job (we just relocated due to my fiances job so I have had some time to really look into everything.)

IDK if I have SCT-My ADHD may just be a result of another illness. Any dosage I have tried with Vyvanse produces subpar results. Even at 40 mg the crash is better, but after five days it's pretty harsh. Plus I don't get the additional help in fatigue symptoms. Overlapping has helped, but I don't think it's a long term solution.

I am just rambling because I am worried I will never feel better. Maybe I will look into the nootropics, but how are they any different than medicine? They might be more natural, but they are still manufactured. I am an ChE in manufacturing plants and without guidelines and restrictions that makes me incredibly leery of sanitation practices, ect.


It's hard to tell; everyone's brain is unique. Genetic factors probably play a large role in this, and dosage is also very important. The benefits of a drug like Vyvanse are subject to diminishing returns as you increase the dosage, but the side effects aren't constrained at all. They increase drastically as dosage escalates.

I don't know whether or not you have ADHD, but there's definitely something else going on there. Fatigue is obviously not a symptom of the disorder whose name includes "hyperactivity." SCT might be a better diagnosis, but if I were your doctor, I'd follow the best-practice for not overdiagnosing ADHD (or SCT) which is: Always rule out endocrine, neurological, and other psychiatric conditions before you call it ADHD!

There are lots of reasons people might have trouble concentrating. Fatigue itself is a huge barrier to concentration, no matter what the cause is: sleep apnea, insomnia, circadian rhythm disorders, generalized anxiety disorder, any of the mood disorders, chronic fatigue syndrome, even thyroid or adrenal imbalance.

I think if ADHD or SCT was your only problem, the Vyvanse would be working better. If I were you, I'd make it a high priority to find out what other problem is going on that's causing the fatigue, and actually fix that problem instead of relying on Vyvanse to help you power through it. Also, seriously look into the CILTEP stack as a way of managing the fatigue until you can find an actual cure. I'm not sure nootropics are the first place you should look for help, though perhaps pramiracetam could help with the fatigue and concentration trouble. For now.

Edited by jadamgo, 19 February 2013 - 06:42 PM.


#7 dasikins

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:14 PM

Do you have any idea WHY it impacts some people, but not others. I know a lot of people who are able to take stims without this type of symptom.

I even took two days off of Vyvanse and starting it again today the positive effects were barely noticeable. I wish I knew WTF was wrong with me. I am miserably fatigued and until I can resolve the issues I am hesitant to find another job (we just relocated due to my fiances job so I have had some time to really look into everything.)

IDK if I have SCT-My ADHD may just be a result of another illness. Any dosage I have tried with Vyvanse produces subpar results. Even at 40 mg the crash is better, but after five days it's pretty harsh. Plus I don't get the additional help in fatigue symptoms. Overlapping has helped, but I don't think it's a long term solution.

I am just rambling because I am worried I will never feel better. Maybe I will look into the nootropics, but how are they any different than medicine? They might be more natural, but they are still manufactured. I am an ChE in manufacturing plants and without guidelines and restrictions that makes me incredibly leery of sanitation practices, ect.


It's hard to tell; everyone's brain is unique. Genetic factors probably play a large role in this, and dosage is also very important. The benefits of a drug like Vyvanse are subject to diminishing returns as you increase the dosage, but the side effects aren't constrained at all. They increase drastically as dosage escalates.

I don't know whether or not you have ADHD, but there's definitely something else going on there. Fatigue is obviously not a symptom of the disorder whose name includes "hyperactivity." SCT might be a better diagnosis, but if I were your doctor, I'd follow the best-practice for not overdiagnosing ADHD (or SCT) which is: Always rule out endocrine, neurological, and other psychiatric conditions before you call it ADHD!

There are lots of reasons people might have trouble concentrating. Fatigue itself is a huge barrier to concentration, no matter what the cause is: sleep apnea, insomnia, circadian rhythm disorders, generalized anxiety disorder, any of the mood disorders, chronic fatigue syndrome, even thyroid or adrenal imbalance.

I think if ADHD or SCT was your only problem, the Vyvanse would be working better. If I were you, I'd make it a high priority to find out what other problem is going on that's causing the fatigue, and actually fix that problem instead of relying on Vyvanse to help you power through it. Also, seriously look into the CILTEP stack as a way of managing the fatigue until you can find an actual cure. I'm not sure nootropics are the first place you should look for help, though perhaps pramiracetam could help with the fatigue and concentration trouble. For now.


Yah I am. I have seen a sleep specialist, rheumatologist, Endocrinologist, GI, Gyn, Psych, and more to come. It's very difficult for people to take you seriously though. I have no other major symptoms as well.

#8 siva140

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 05:32 PM

LIMBIC ADD




Posted Image

Underside active view. Increased limbic activity

Posted Image

Underside active view. Increased limbic activity

Posted Image

Underside active view. Marked increased limbic, basal ganglia and cingulate activity



Limbic ADD, with symptoms of inattention and/or hyperactivity-impulsivity and negativity, depression, sleep problems, low energy, low self-esteem, social isolation, decreased motivation and irritability. Brain SPECT imaging typically shows increased central limbic system activity and decreased prefrontal cortex activity. This Limbic ADD subtype typically responds best to stimulating antidepressants such as buprion or imipramine, or venlafaxine if obsessive symptoms are present.


#9 socialpiranha

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 02:56 AM

vyvanse is dextroamphetamine bound to l-lysine, I tried l-lysine on its own and it made me severely depressed maybe straight up dextoamphetamine would be better for you?

Modafinil could help with staying awake and alert, also mildronate and cerebrolysin are worth looking into.

I just started taking npep-12(orally active cerebrolysin) and mexidol for similar symptoms, i could let you know how it turns out if you want

I used to do a lot of coke and just got over an opiate addiction, dexedrine is the only other thing that made me feel semi normal and able to function like a normal human. Amphetamines are amphetamines though and its just another road to addiction and failure so i dont use it anymore.

#10 Doktor

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 03:51 PM

Here is the thing with Vyvanse (I take Vyvanse, and it is the best thing since sliced bread for my ADD as well as depressive moods):

1. People don't drink enough water on it.
2. People don't eat enough food on it.

Vyvanse can kill your appetite, and also the focus it provides can often destract you from essential bodily needs. Now, I am not saying that you for sure have this problem, but I myself was very depressed, anxious, frusterated, etc when I was not keeping up on my hydration and nutrients. Vyvanse burns through water and food VERY fast, and it is very important you eat regular healthy meals on it while regularly consuming water (more then 8 glasses a day). I also hear that you should increase the daily percentage of carbs and protein you consume on it (from healthy sources!).

When I started keeping this in check, Vyvanse did a full 180 on me and now it seriously is incredibly therapeutic for me.

I also added magnesium citrate to it to help with agitation and muscle tension. Magnesium worked incredibly well for me; honestly comparable in efficiacy to clonazepam in my case - likely indicating I must have been very deficient in it to begin with.

Good luck!


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#11 socialpiranha

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 07:49 PM

good advice doktor have you noticed if the withdrawal effects are less severe after implementing this change? I mean have you been off it for a few days at a time or anything since then.

#12 Raptor87

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:30 PM

I know that mph can induce tearfulness, sentimentalism and emotional disturbance. Maybe there is a relation. Also there is a difference in being tearful, sad and depressed. M-b12 worked for my tearfulness, try it out!

#13 arjacent

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 03:40 PM

It seems I get the same reaction from of D-amphetamine (in the form of dexedrine). I get this melancholic depression from it. Hell I even get tearful and cry sometimes too when on it. It works wonders for focus but the negative mood it induces is very scary sometimes. I can't understand why a surge in dopamine would do this as this is counter intuitive.

#14 socialpiranha

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 06:14 PM

Stack dexedrine with mexidol and n-pep-12 it smoothes the peaks and valleys right out feels like a natural good feeling from having a good day or whatever plus one 10 milligram spansule lasts 12 hours as opposed to 4-6!

#15 socialpiranha

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 06:27 PM

An unnatural dopamine surge kills dopamine neurons as a measure of homeostasis. The body notices something is out of whack and fixes it by killing off dopaminergic neurons. In order to stop this you have to target the mechanisms which kill them off. Antioxidants, glutamatergic modulaters etc. It makes amphetamines less potent but more natural feeling. I'm not saying the stack i mentioned is perfect but it is by far the best i have ever come across and i'd love to see people try it and then try to tweak it to make it even better.

#16 nowayout

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:50 PM

I doubt an amphetamine like Vyvanse is a good idea for someone with a history of cocaine use. It's like prescribing Vicodin to an ex heroin user.

Edited by nowayout, 01 June 2013 - 08:57 PM.


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#17 Drake

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 07:45 PM

I have been on Vyvanse for about 5 months. Went from 30mg to 50mg to stop the hard come down and started taking it at noon because it was messing with my thyroid med. I am a pre-everything transman so my situational depression is already high. But I have noticed for the past month just this sinking depression and often suicidal thoughts. It's hard to tell if it's the Vyvanse or just the depression of my situation. Vyvanse helps greatly with my concentration and focus with out the increased heart rate and emotional ups and downs of adderall. My memory has improved, but lately the depression just seems unbearable. It's making taking Vyvanse seem almost worthless because it has increased my forgetfulness and by the day's end I find myself spacing out and having to force myself to focus. I'm hoping it's not the medication because I need something that won't up my heart rate so I can continue transition. I also noticed since on Vyvanse an increase in craving sugary foods. Which is not normal for me. Has anyone else experienced that and the depression?





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