52 replies to this topic

[Winslow Strong]

Thanks for the references, MisterE. I still find myself confused on why you think consumption of SAFAs are problematic? I.e. why might they lead to insulin resistance? My understanding is that energy overload of any kind (e.g. carbs in lieu of SAFA) will result in storage of the excess energy as primarily C16 SAFA (palmitic). So is there any evidence that consuming SAFA is per se dangerous, esp when not in the context of an energy excess?

Here's a recent review [reporting no conflicts of interest] looking at the evidence regarding SAFA consumption and health outcomes:

http://advances.nutr...nt/4/3/294.full

Dietary Fats and Health: Dietary Recommendations in the Context of Scientific Evidence¹

• Glen D. Lawrence^*

Abstract: Although early studies showed that saturated fat diets with very low levels of PUFAs increase serum cholesterol, whereas other studies showed high serum cholesterol increased the risk of coronary artery disease (CAD), the evidence of dietary saturated fats increasing CAD or causing premature death was weak. Over the years, data revealed that dietary saturated fatty acids (SFAs) are not associated with CAD and other adverse health effects or at worst are weakly associated in some analyses when other contributing factors may be overlooked. Several recent analyses indicate that SFAs, particularly in dairy products and coconut oil, can improve health. The evidence of ω6 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) promoting inflammation and augmenting many diseases continues to grow, whereas ω3 PUFAs seem to counter these adverse effects. The replacement of saturated fats in the diet with carbohydrates, especially sugars, has resulted in increased obesity and its associated health complications. Well-established mechanisms have been proposed for the adverse health effects of some alternative or replacement nutrients, such as simple carbohydrates and PUFAs. The focus on dietary manipulation of serum cholesterol may be moot in view of numerous other factors that increase the risk of heart disease. The adverse health effects that have been associated with saturated fats in the past are most likely due to factors other than SFAs, which are discussed here. This review calls for a rational reevaluation of existing dietary recommendations that focus on minimizing dietary SFAs, for which mechanisms for adverse health effects are lacking.

[misterE]

I still find myself confused on why you think consumption of SAFAs are problematic? I.e. why might they lead to insulin resistance?

The adipose-tissue can only store a limited amount of saturated-fat. The more saturated-fat that is stored within the adipose-tissue makes it secrete inflammatory cytokines and induces insulin-resistance within the adipose-tissue. Once the adipose-tissue becomes resistant to the antilipolytic effect of insulin, the body undergoes chronic lipolysis, which sends a massive wave of free-fatty-acids (FFA) into the circulation. These FFA accumulate in the muscles and cause insulin-resistance within the muscles, they accumulate in the liver, brain, heart, kidney, pancreas and bones and they damage these organs in numerous different ways. That is basically how saturated-fat initiates insulin-resistance.

But saturated-fat is bad for many other reasons also, for one it increases estrogen and lowers sperm-count in men. Saturated-fat increases inflammation, it causes the blood to thicken and sludge, it alters the way hormones function, it alters blood-lipids; it overstuffs your fat-cells. Not to mention most saturated-animal-fats are highly concentrated in dioxins and PCB’s! In fact 95% of our exposure to damaging environmental-chemicals comes from eating saturated- animal-fats.


The scientific-literature is very solid about saturated-fats role in obesity, insulin-resistance, heart-disease and cancer. Below is a study looking at dietary-patterns and pancreatic-cancer (the most deadly type of cancer).

J Natl Cancer Inst. 2009 Jul 15;101(14):1001-11.

Dietary fatty acids and pancreatic cancer in the NIH-AARP diet and health study.

Thiébaut AC, Jiao L, Silverman DT, Cross AJ, Thompson FE, Subar AF, Hollenbeck AR, Schatzkin A, Stolzenberg-Solomon RZ.

Abstract

BACKGROUND:
Previous research relating dietary fat, a modifiable risk factor, to pancreatic cancer has been inconclusive.

METHODS:
We prospectively analyzed the association between intakes of fat, fat subtypes, and fat food sources and exocrine pancreatic cancer in the National Institutes of Health-AARP Diet and Health Study, a US cohort of 308 736 men and 216 737 women who completed a 124-item food frequency questionnaire in 1995-1996. Hazard ratios (HRs) and 95% confidence intervals (CIs) were calculated using Cox proportional hazards regression models, with adjustment for energy intake, smoking history, body mass index, and diabetes. Statistical tests were two-sided.

RESULTS:
Over an average follow-up of 6.3 years, 865 men and 472 women were diagnosed with exocrine pancreatic cancer (45.0 and 34.5 cases per 100 000 person-years, respectively). After multivariable adjustment and combination of data for men and women, pancreatic cancer risk was directly related to the intakes of total fat, saturated fat, and monounsaturated fat, but not polyunsaturated fat. The associations were strongest for saturated fat from animal food sources; specifically, intakes from red meat and dairy products were both statistically significantly associated with increased pancreatic cancer risk.

CONCLUSION:
In this large prospective cohort with a wide range of intakes, dietary fat of animal origin was associated with increased pancreatic cancer risk.

Edited by misterE, 21 May 2013 - 12:06 AM.

[misterE]

My understanding is that energy overload of any kind (e.g. carbs in lieu of SAFA) will result in storage of the excess energy as primarily C16 SAFA (palmitic).

Excess carbohydrate doesn’t convert into fat unless it is simple-sugars. Fructose is very lipogenic and can easily convert into palmitic-acid. In fact that is why fructose induces insulin-resistance (by its ability to convert into saturated-fat).

During calorie-surplus the body does convert some carbohydrate into fat, but when people are overfeed either fat or carbohydrate, fat ends up causing much more body-fat gain than carbohydrate (because its already in the form for storage). When the body converts excess-carbohydrates into fat ( de-novo-lipogenesis), about 30% of the calories are lost in the process, leaving less total calories being stored as fat [1].







[1] Am J Clin Nutr. 1995 Jul;62(1):19-29. Fat and carbohydrate overfeeding in humans: different effects on energy storage. Horton TJ, Drougas H, Brachey A.

[Chupo]

Thanks for all that info, MisterE. I knew some of that, but not all. Speaking of growth-promotion, to boot there's the rBGH that is in most non-organic US milk! Probly why milk is legendary for those looking to gain bodymass quickly.

I haven't been convinced so far by the evidence that I have seen that saturated fat per se is problematic. It tends to increase LDL, but there's a lot more to heart disease development than LDL (e.g. oxidation, inflammation). E.g. the studies cited here:

http://chriskresser....e-not-the-enemy

There are examples of primitive cultures, like the Masai, who consume an enormous amount of saturated fat, do get atherosclerosis, but have negligible #s of heart attacks.

http://wholehealthso...osclerosis.html [fascinating article]

"At approximately 14 years old, Masai men are inducted into the warrior class, and are called Muran. For the next 15-20 years, tradition dictates that they eat a diet composed exclusively of cow's milk, meat and blood. Milk is the primary food. Masai cows are not like wimpy American cows, however. Their milk contains almost twice the fat of American cows, more protein, more cholesterol and less lactose. Thus, Muran eat an estimated 3,000 calories per day, 2/3 of which comes from fat. Here is the reference for all this. Milk fat is about 50% saturated. That means the Muran gets 33% of his calories from saturated fat. This population eats more saturated fat than any other I'm aware of."

"They found no evidence of myocardial infarction (heart attack) in any of the 50 hearts. What they did find, however, was coronary artery disease."

"This may suggest that you can eat a wide variety of foods and be healthy, except industrial grain products (particularly white flour), sugar, industrial vegetable oil and other processed food. The Masai are just one more example of a group that's healthy when eating a traditional diet." [He's obviously hypothesizing beyond the data here]

This is the interesting part. As soon as they start the Muran, atherosclerosis takes a dive until the Muran is over.





"There appears to be a pattern here. Either the Masai men are eating nothing but milk, meat and blood and they're nearly free from atherosclerosis, or they're eating however they please and they have as much atherosclerosis as the average American. There doesn't seem to be much in between. "

[Winslow Strong]

The adipose-tissue can only store a limited amount of saturated-fat. The more saturated-fat that is stored within the adipose-tissue makes it secrete inflammatory cytokines and induces insulin-resistance within the adipose-tissue. Once the adipose-tissue becomes resistant to the antilipolytic effect of insulin, the body undergoes chronic lipolysis, which sends a massive wave of free-fatty-acids (FFA) into the circulation. These FFA accumulate in the muscles and cause insulin-resistance within the muscles, they accumulate in the liver, brain, heart, kidney, pancreas and bones and they damage these organs in numerous different ways. That is basically how saturated-fat initiates insulin-resistance.

No debate there. I just wonder why you think eating saturated fat is per se problematic. For example, suppose one ate high saturated fat in a diet of caloric depriviation. How would adipocytes become overloaded with saturated fat? All excess SAFA and then some will be utilized for energy. So, are we only talking about SAFA as problematic in the context of energy excess, or even in the context of energy deprivation?

Excess carbohydrate doesn’t convert into fat unless it is simple-sugars.

Then in what form does the body store the excess carbohydrates? It can only hold so much glycogen.

During calorie-surplus the body does convert some carbohydrate into fat, but when people are overfeed either fat or carbohydrate, fat ends up causing much more body-fat gain than carbohydrate (because its already in the form for storage). When the body converts excess-carbohydrates into fat ( de-novo-lipogenesis), about 30% of the calories are lost in the process, leaving less total calories being stored as fat [1].

Then it still sounds like the true issue may be (net) energy surplus, not SAFA consumption per se. The above suggests that one may be able to eat more calories if overfeeding on carbs and gain less weight than if overfeeding on fats. This is good to know, but it doesn't signal out SAFA as bad in the context of a diet of appropriate total energy intake.

But saturated-fat is bad for many other reasons also, for one it increases estrogen and lowers sperm-count in men.

From what I've read, SAFA increases testosterone also. That could by why it increases estrogen. Is there evidence that it can increase estrogen to unhealthy levels in men who do not actually become fat? E.g. the Masai would be a great test, but I don't know if they measured their hormone levels.

Saturated-fat increases inflammation,

I've heard this claim before, and also heard claims that carbs are more inflammatory, and that PUFAs are causative of oxidation of LDL due to their peroxidizability, which drives the inflammation leading to atherosclerosis.

Not to mention most saturated-animal-fats are highly concentrated in dioxins and PCB’s! In fact 95% of our exposure to damaging environmental-chemicals comes from eating saturated- animal-fats.

Yes, this is a very important point. If one is consuming a lot of animal SAFA, the source must be considered very carefully.

The scientific-literature is very solid about saturated-fats role in obesity, insulin-resistance, heart-disease and cancer.

Might be a bit of an overstatement, given the recent review on SAFAs that I cited above.

Below is a study looking at dietary-patterns and pancreatic-cancer (the most deadly type of cancer).

Interesting. I've always thought that PUFAs were far more implicated in cancer overall than SAFAs. For example, in the PUFA chapter (11 I think) of "The Perfect Health Diet" by Paul Jaminet, he reviews every human intervention trial that he could find (8 I believe) directly comparing PUFAs with SAFAs. PUFAs did better on heart disease, SAFAs did better on cancer, and SAFAs did better on all-cause mortality. The evidence would likely have been stronger in favor of SAFAs if not for the fact that some of the PUFA trials included n-3s, which probly improved heart-health outcomes. The case for using n-6 veg oils in lieu of SAFAs looked very poor to me after reading that chapter.

I appreciate this conversation, MisterE, as you hold views very contrary to any I've encountered among nutrition-educated people. You clearly have read a lot, so I'm hoping to learn some more by having my beliefs held to the fire by you

As an aside - I was recently a vegan for 25 days, and the most surprising thing to me was that my mood was faaar above its usual baseline.I've now switched back to my old diet, and my mood is about back to normal. Do you know if this is a common occurrence, and if so, what might cause it?

[TheFountain]

Vegans and vegetarians are also usually richer, more intelligent and educated and in sometimes more religious, all this is connected to health and longevity.

Perhaps here in the USA, but most vegans and vegetarians are dirt-poor living in third-world countries. They simply eat vegetarian out of necessity not by choice. Epidemiological data clearly shows that as these vegetarian populations switch to diet high in meat, cheese, fat and sugar, they quickly lose their health [1-7].

It's the food!



[1] Diabetes Care. 1979 Mar-Apr;2(2):161-70. Diabetes mellitus and its vascular complications in Japanese migrants on the Island of Hawaii. Kawate R, Yamakido M, Nishimoto Y.

[2] Asian Pac J Cancer Prev. 2004 Jan-Mar;5(1):28-35. Association between type II diabetes and colon cancer among Japanese with reference to changes in food intake. Kuriki K, Tokudome S, Tajima K.

[3] Eur J Cancer Prev. 2004 Apr;13(2):127-32. Secular trend of colon cancer incidence and mortality in relation to fat and meat intake in Japan. Kono S.

[4] J Am Coll Nutr. 2010 Apr;29(2):81-91. Imbalanced dietary profile, anthropometry, and lipids in urban Asian Indian adolescents and young adults. Gupta N, Shah P, Goel K.

[5] Nutr J. 2011 Jan 28;10:12. A cross-sectional investigation of regional patterns of diet and cardio-metabolic risk in India. Daniel CR, Prabhakaran D, Kapur K.

[6] Metab Syndr Relat Disord. 2004 Spring;2(1):14-23. The Metabolic Syndrome in Asian Indians: Impact of Nutritional and Socio-economic Transition in India. Wasir JS, Misra A.

[7] J Diabetes. 2011 Dec;3(4):278-92. Nutrition transition in India: secular trends in dietary intake and their relationship to diet-related non-communicable diseases. Misra A, Singhal N, Sivakumar B.

Why is MisterE being voted down for reference posts like this? Please explain?

[TheFountain]

I'm not an advocate of vegeteraniasm or veganism, but there is something to be said about The China Study. Protein intake, if cut below a certain level can give some protection against cancer and heart disease (nevermind all of the caveats)

The China Study (the book) is both highly flawed and misleading. The actual study itself actually showed that eating meat is more healthy, when properly interpreted.

Many many rebuttals have been written, such as this one:

The China Study: Fact or Fallacy?
http://rawfoodsos.co...fact-or-fallac/

Denise Minger herself misinterpreted the Data. It makes sense that she is supported here though as she is every Paleo dieters wet dream.

[misterE]

So, are we only talking about SAFA as problematic in the context of energy excess, or even in the context of energy deprivation?

Every time you eat a meal high in saturated-fat, it sludge’s the blood and reduces nitric-oxide. This is regardless of calorie-surplus or deficit.

Then in what form does the body store the excess carbohydrates? It can only hold so much glycogen.

Starches (or the glucose in sucrose) gets stored as glycogen, after that any extra will convert into fat, however 30% of the energy is lost in the process. Fructose gets converted into fat regardless of calorie-balance.

This is good to know, but it doesn't signal out SAFA as bad in the context of a diet of appropriate total energy intake.

Well would you say eating fast-food is healthy as long as you stay in negative calorie-balance?

From what I've read, SAFA increases testosterone also. That could by why it increases estrogen. Is there evidence that it can increase estrogen to unhealthy levels in men who do not actually become fat?

From what I’ve gathered, high-fat diets lower sex-hormone-binding-globulin (SHBG) which then increases free-testosterone, which then gets converted into estrogens in the body-fat. Since SHBG binds testosterone with a high affinity (and decreases its metabolic-clearance-rate) it actually increases the total amount of testosterone [1].

An interesting study in England looked at hormone levels in meat-eaters, vegetarians and vegans. The vegans had 15% higher testosterone levels than the meat-eaters. The reason why they had higher testosterone levels was because they also had 15% higher levels of SHBG [2].

I've heard this claim before, and also heard claims that carbs are more inflammatory, and that PUFAs are causative of oxidation of LDL due to their peroxidizability, which drives the inflammation leading to atherosclerosis.

Carbohydrates can be inflammatory if you are consuming simple-sugars. But fiber-rich complex-carbohydrates are actually anti-inflammatory. The fat to fiber ratio is a very strong predictor of C-reactive-protein (a biomarker for the amount of inflammation in the body) [3].

You are right thou about the omega-6 as being inflammatory, the research on that is quite solid as well. You can reduce the levels of omega-6 in your tissues by removing the sources of omega-6 from the diet (mainly vegetable-oils and grain-fed meat) and by supplementing ground flaxseeds or cod-liver-oil.

Might be a bit of an overstatement, given the recent review on SAFAs that I cited above.

You will always find contradictory studies and reviews in the literature, but that is when you must compare that contradiction to what the epidemiological data shows. The epidemiological data clearly shows that saturated-fat is one of the largest culprits in causing many of the modern diseases.

Do you know if this is a common occurrence, and if so, what might cause it?

Perhaps it had to do with a rise in serotonin (from the carbohydrates in plant-foods). There was a book published years back called: Potatoes Not Prozac, which explains that carbohydrate is essential for not only proper brain function, but also in helping elevate your mood. But there are surly many others reasons as well, like improved circulation, better hormonal balance, etc.



[1] J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jan;90(1):157-62. Associations of sex-hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) with non-SHBG-bound levels of testosterone and estradiol in independently living men. de Ronde W, van der Schouw YT, Muller M.

[2] Br J Cancer. 2000 Jul;83(1):95-7. Hormones and diet: low insulin-like growth factor-I but normal bioavailable androgens in vegan men. Allen NE, Appleby PN, Davey GK.

[3] Am J Cardiol. 2003 Dec 1;92(11):1335-9. Relation of dietary fat and fiber to elevation of C-reactive protein. King DE, Egan BM, Geesey ME.

[Winslow Strong]

Thanks again for the response, MisterE.

Regarding blood sludge, and reduced NO via SAFA consumption - these are a few secondary endpoints. Consumption of any macronutrient type can be identified with certain adverse changes in certain secondary endpoints (e.g. high carb diets raise trigs). The important question is whether the molecule/food on the whole causes favorable or adverse changes to overall health/longevity. If so, then these should be revealed in primary endpoints.

While I agree that single studies may turn up a variety of different conflicting results, especially when there are enough of them with not-so-large n, when you get to the level of large meta-analyses turning up such results, I don't see why they should be brushed aside so easily, and the issue represented as if there were a consensus. There's more than a few reviews and meta-analyses that have been calling into question the presumed adverse effects of SAFAs on primary endpoints. A few others:

Siri-Tarino, Patty W., et al. “Meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies evaluating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease.” The American journal of clinical nutrition 91.3 (2010): 535-546. http://ajcn.nutritio.../91/3/535.short

Results: During 5–23 y of follow-up of 347,747 subjects, 11,006 developed CHD or stroke. Intake of saturated fat was not associated with an increased risk of CHD, stroke, or CVD. The pooled relative risk estimates that compared extreme quantiles of saturated fat intake were 1.07 (95% CI: 0.96, 1.19; P = 0.22) for CHD, 0.81 (95% CI: 0.62, 1.05; P = 0.11) for stroke, and 1.00 (95% CI: 0.89, 1.11; P = 0.95) for CVD. Consideration of age, sex, and study quality did not change the results.

Conclusions: A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat.

Another:

Fats and Fatty Acids in Human Nutrition. Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism, 2009; 55 (1-3). http://www.karger.co...al/Issue/250361

An ‘Expert Consultation’ held jointly by the World Health Organization (WHO) and Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) of the US had this to say regarding the epidemiological evidence:

“Intake of SFA [saturated fatty acid] was not significantly associated with CHD [coronary heart disease] mortality… SFA intake was not significantly associated CHD events…

and this to say regarding the evidence from randomized controlled trials that purposefully lowered saturated fat intake:

“…fatal CHD was not reduced by…the low-fat diets…”

Thanks for the tip Re: carbs and serotonin. That could be related.

[Winslow Strong]

I've been reading a bit about the epidemiology of centenarians. Just to add some more confusion to the issues we have been discussing ( :D )

"Nonetheless, several studies have attempted to characterize traditional dietary patterns potentially associated with longevity. These populations with an unusually high prevalence of centenarians all tended to be (or had been) very physically active, non-obese and small in stature, suggestive of some degree of calorie restriction. In addition, they tended to have a high consumption of plant foods and lower consumption of animal products. In contrast, Shimizu et al. reported that centenarians who preferred dairy products had an increased further survival rate as compared to those whose dietary pattern indicated a preference for vegetables, cereals or beverages."

http://www.sciencedi...378512211000041

[misterE]

Nootrophil: what do you make of these studies?



Circulation. 2008; 118: 214-215

Dietary Patterns and Longevity

Lawrence J. Appel, MD, MPH

“dietary patterns associated with longevity emphasize fruits and vegetables and are reduced in saturated fat, meats, dairy products, refined grains and sweets, … in other aspects of healthy diets, particularly macronutrient intake, (the) traditional Okinawan diets provide ≥90% of calories from carbohydrate.”









J Am Coll Nutr. 2009 Aug;28 Suppl:500S-516S.

The Okinawan diet: health implications of a low-calorie, nutrient-dense, antioxidant-rich dietary pattern low in glycemic load.

Willcox DC, Willcox BJ, Todoriki H.

“the traditional Okinawan diet is the lowest in fat intake, particularly in terms of saturated fat, and highest in carbohydrate intake”

Edited by misterE, 06 June 2013 - 12:29 AM.

[tunt01]

Denise Minger herself misinterpreted the Data. It makes sense that she is supported here though as she is every Paleo dieters wet dream.

+1. didn't adjust for confounding factors.

Thx OP.

Original study looks good, but it is only cancer. Other side of the coin is heart disease, which is a real risk in a pure vegan diet.

[misterE]

Other side of the coin is heart disease, which is a real risk in a pure vegan diet.

Are you familiar with the works of Esselstyn or Ornish? They demonstrated reversal of atherosclerosis using low-fat vegan diets (whole-grains, beans, vegetables and fruit).

Edited by misterE, 06 June 2013 - 02:16 AM.

[tunt01]

Are you familiar with the works of Esselstyn or Ornish? They demonstrated reversal of atherosclerosis using low-fat vegan diets (whole-grains, beans, vegetables and fruit).

Yes, and if you can implement those diets than that's great. I have a problem getting enough protein, zinc, and B12 in a pure vegan diet. I was talking more about the practicalities of a pure vegan diet, rather than the literature itself.

I eat a near-vegan diet. No dairy, no eggs, high amounts of vegetables and a little bit of fish (shrimp and sockeye salmon).

Edited by prophets, 06 June 2013 - 04:39 AM.

[Winslow Strong]

Nootrophil: what do you make of these studies?



Circulation. 2008; 118: 214-215

Dietary Patterns and Longevity

Lawrence J. Appel, MD, MPH

“dietary patterns associated with longevity emphasize fruits and vegetables and are reduced in saturated fat, meats, dairy products, refined grains and sweets, … in other aspects of healthy diets, particularly macronutrient intake, (the) traditional Okinawan diets provide ≥90% of calories from carbohydrate.”









J Am Coll Nutr. 2009 Aug;28 Suppl:500S-516S.

The Okinawan diet: health implications of a low-calorie, nutrient-dense, antioxidant-rich dietary pattern low in glycemic load.

Willcox DC, Willcox BJ, Todoriki H.

“the traditional Okinawan diet is the lowest in fat intake, particularly in terms of saturated fat, and highest in carbohydrate intake”

Thanks for that study, MisterE. I suspect that the Okinowan's longevity is most driven by their self-imposed caloric restriction. I believe they have a cultural norm of eating to only 80% full or something like that. They also eat a lot of healthful seafood. Their high-carb consumption (a lot of sweet potatoes right?) at least suggests that high-carb diets are compatible with longevity. It's weird tho, bc the results of that study seem incompatible with this one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1407826

Nutr Health. 1992;8(2-3):165-75.
Nutrition for the Japanese elderly.
Shibata H, Nagai H, Haga H, Yasumura S, Suzuki T, Suyama Y.
Source
Department of Community Health, Tokyo Metropolitan Institute of Gerontology, Japan.

Abstract
The present paper examines the relationship of nutritional status to further life expectancy and health status in the Japanese elderly based on 3 epidemiological studies. 1. Nutrient intakes in 94 Japanese centenarians investigated between 1972 and 1973 showed a higher proportion of animal protein to total proteins than in contemporary average Japanese. 2. High intakes of milk and fats and oils had favorable effects on 10-year (1976-1986) survivorship in 422 urban residents aged 69-71. The survivors revealed a longitudinal increase in intakes of animal foods such as eggs, milk, fish and meat over the 10 years. 3. Nutrient intakes were compared, based on 24-hour dietary records, between a sample from Okinawa Prefecture where life expectancies at birth and 65 were the longest in Japan, and a sample from Akita Prefecture where the life expectancies were much shorter. Intakes of Ca, Fe, vitamins A, B1, B2, C, and the proportion of energy from proteins and fats were significantly higher in the former than in the latter. Intakes of carbohydrates and NaCl were lower.

Okinowans may be the exception to low-fat no-dairy (they probably arent even genetically adapted to dairy).


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12887160

J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 2003 Apr;49(2):133-8.
Dietary patterns and further survival in Japanese centenarians.
Shimizu K, Takeda S, Noji H, Hirose N, Ebihara Y, Arai Y, Hamamatsu M, Nakazawa S, Gondo Y, Konishi K.
Source
Health Care Center, Shoko-Chukin Bank, 2-10-17 Yaesu, Chuo-ku, Tokyo 104-0028, Japan. shimizu_kenichiro@1986.jukuin.keio.ac.jp

Abstract
We have previously reported that centenarians (persons > or = 100 y old) in Tokyo prefer dairy products. Dietary preferences may be associated with longevity. The aim of the present study was to investigate the relationship between dietary patterns and further survival in centenarians. During 1992-1999, we examined the dietary practices of 104 centenarians (29 men and 75 women; mean age, 100.3 +/- 0.9 y) who lived in the Tokyo metropolitan area. Dietary patterns were classified by kappa-means cluster analysis. As clinical co-variables, we considered activities of daily living, cognitive function, nutritional status, presence of important disease, gender, and age at the time of the initial survey. Survival data were recorded yearly until 2001, and then tested with Kaplan-Meier analysis and the log rank statistic. Four dietary patterns were identified: a pattern preferring vegetables (n = 33), a pattern preferring dairy products (n = 26), a pattern preferring beverages (n = 10), and a pattern preferring cereals (n = 35). No clinical variables differed between the four dietary patterns. In 2001, 28 centenarians were still alive. The survival rate for those preferring dairy products was the highest of the four dietary patterns; in particular, being significantly higher than the pattern preferring beverages (p = 0.048). A dietary pattern preferring dairy products was associated with increased survival in Tokyo-area centenarians.


Here are a few studies comparing cohorts across different age groups. Thats a potentially very biased comparison to make, so caution is warranted. I think they support the stance tho that saturated fat and dairy don't doom attempts at extreme longevity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7830225

J Nutr Elder. 1994;13(4):5-23.
Individual foods and food group patterns of the oldest old.
Houston DK, Johnson MA, Poon LW, Clayton GM.
Abstract
This study compares the dietary patterns of centenarians (n = 85) with sexagenarians (n = 76) and octogenarians (n = 83). A Daily Diet Diary was developed to code the responses of the 24-hour dietary recalls. Centenarians and octogenarians consumed a more varied (P < 0.05) diet, with higher (P < 0.01) consumption frequencies of milk and grains, and fewer (P < 0.01) skipped breakfasts than sexagenarians. However, centenarians also consumed high fat foods (P < 0.01), such as whole milk and biscuits, and coffee (P < 0.5) more frequently than the two younger cohorts. Several of the variations found in the food patterns among the three age groups may reflect cohort differences, rather than true antecedents for longevity.


http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1737661


Int J Aging Hum Dev. 1992;34(1):57-76.
Nutritional patterns of centenarians.
Johnson MA, Brown MA, Poon LW, Martin P, Clayton GM.
Source
University of Georgia, Athens.

Abstract
This study compares the dietary patterns of centenarians (n = 24) with elderly adults in their sixties (n = 54) and eighties (n = 47). Compared to the younger cohorts, centenarians consumed breakfast more regularly, avoided weight loss diets and large fluctuations in body weight, consumed slightly more vegetables, and relied on their doctor and family more than on the news media for nutrition information. On the other hand, centenarians were less likely to consume diets low in fat and to comply with nutritional guidelines designed to reduce the risk of chronic disease. Elderly black men consumed diets higher in sweets and fat compared to black women and white men and women. Nearly three times as many blacks expressed the desire to eat more nutritiously. High nutrition risks, particularly in blacks, were associated with lower physical and mental health and impaired activities of daily living.

Other side of the coin is heart disease, which is a real risk in a pure vegan diet.

Are you familiar with the works of Esselstyn or Ornish? They demonstrated reversal of atherosclerosis using low-fat vegan diets (whole-grains, beans, vegetables and fruit).

Correct me if Im wrong, but haven't all of Ornish's good results been a part of a total life overhaul that included things like: meditation, other relaxation techniques, strengthening social bonds, exercise, etc? To single out the vegetarian diet from such an intervention including all those other things that have been independently shown in RCTs to promote health seems a bit overly optimistic. I'm less familiar with Esselstyn's work. Does it demonstrate that vegetarian/vegan interventions on their own (and comp to what reference diet?) improve primary endpoints? Mainly all-cause mortality interests me.

My takeaway from all this is there's not much of a case from epidemiology to argue that SAFAs or dairy are a serious no-no for those of us looking to live to 100 or more. I'm always open to more evidence tho, as I'd rather live >100 than be right

W

Edited by Winslow Strong, 08 June 2013 - 05:19 PM.

[Godot]

Are you familiar with the works of Esselstyn or Ornish? They demonstrated reversal of atherosclerosis using low-fat vegan diets (whole-grains, beans, vegetables and fruit).

No they didn't.

Ornish's study, as someone else noted, used a full lifestyle modification program to achieve a modest effect in a small sample. This effect has never been replicated in 15 years.

Esselstyn reported on positive health effects in a small handful (was it 6, or 8?) of patients in his own practice, and had a 50% dropout rate.

You use those same two studies to support your unwavering position in every thread, but they are very poor studies.

[tunt01]

I'm less familiar with Esselstyn's work.

Esselstyn basically argues for an Ornish approach, but also advocates abstaining from all oils. This means no olive oil, no fish oils, etc. I can't remember exactly, but I am pretty sure he views olive oil as atherogenic.

[Application]

Are you familiar with the works of Esselstyn or Ornish? They demonstrated reversal of atherosclerosis using low-fat vegan diets (whole-grains, beans, vegetables and fruit).

No they didn't.

Ornish's study, as someone else noted, used a full lifestyle modification program to achieve a modest effect in a small sample. This effect has never been replicated in 15 years.

Esselstyn reported on positive health effects in a small handful (was it 6, or 8?) of patients in his own practice, and had a 50% dropout rate.

You use those same two studies to support your unwavering position in every thread, but they are very poor studies.

It was 18 patients in Esselstyn's study. In addition to small number of patients, the other weakness is his use of medication in some of the cases. Nonetheless, the results are striking as hell because these were patients who were basically terminal with heart disease and his study documented arresting the disease in all who complied and in most, scans showed their cardiac arteries opening up.

...As I have reported earlier,28,29 a plant-based diet in conjunction with cholesterol-reducing medication eliminated progression of coronary artery disease over a 12-year period in patients with triple-vessel disease. Most of the 18 patients had experienced an earlier failed intervention of bypass surgery or angioplasty. All patients who maintained the diet achieved the cholesterol goal of less than 150 mg/dL and had no recurrent coronary events during the 12 years. At 5 years, angiography was repeated in most cases. By analysis of the stenosis percentage none had progression of disease, and 70% had selective regression.28 These data are compelling when one considers that the same group had experienced more than 49 coronary events during the 8 years before this study.28....

from: http://www.heartatta...olving_cade.htm

[Godot]

The results seem striking as presented, but there is no statistical power in such a small sample, with such a large dropout rate, and confounding interventions.

The paper you linked is just a position paper. Here is Esselstyn's actual study. There were 11 participants who didn't drop out. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/7500065/

On the other hand, here is a very large (nearly 50,000 people!) controlled study that found no effect on CVD from a low fat diet. http://jama.jamanetw...rticleid=202339

[Application]

The results seem striking as presented, but there is no statistical power in such a small sample, with such a large dropout rate, and confounding interventions.

The paper you linked is just a position paper. Here is Esselstyn's actual study. There were 11 participants who didn't drop out. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/7500065/

On the other hand, here is a very large (nearly 50,000 people!) controlled study that found no effect on CVD from a low fat diet. http://jama.jamanetw...rticleid=202339

Thanks for clarifying and pointing to the actual study. I agree, the drop out rate is a weakness. The nurses study you link below is not similar to Esselstyn's research where the participants ate a low fat, defined as less than 10%, vegan diet. In contrast, the nurses did not eliminate animal products and only lowered fat to 20%. If anything, this hints that much more strict diet, like Esselstyn's is necessary to have a real impact on the rate of CVD.

[Godot]

Here's a 12-month comparison study of several weight loss diets, including Atkins and Ornish: http://jama.jamanetw...rticleid=205916

Atkins dieters did significantly better than the Ornish group on CVD risk factors, even after controlling for weight loss (which Atkins dieters also did better on.) So clearly a strict low-fat diet is not necessary to impact these factors.

At all time points, the statistically significant findings for HDL-C and triglycerides concentrations favored the Atkins group (Table 3).... Parallel to the group changes in weight, the decrease in mean blood pressure levels was largest in the Atkins group at all time points.

Edited by Godot, 11 June 2013 - 09:01 PM.

[Application]

Here's a 12-month comparison study of several weight loss diets, including Atkins and Ornish: http://jama.jamanetw...rticleid=205916

Atkins dieters did significantly better than the Ornish group on CVD risk factors, even after controlling for weight loss (which Atkins dieters also did better on.) So clearly a strict low-fat diet is not necessary to impact these factors.

At all time points, the statistically significant findings for HDL-C and triglycerides concentrations favored the Atkins group (Table 3).... Parallel to the group changes in weight, the decrease in mean blood pressure levels was largest in the Atkins group at all time points.

Actually, if you read the details of what the "Ornish" group ate (see chart below of table 2 from your linked study), it again proves how difficult the diet is to follow instead of whether its effective at reducing heart disease. The Ornish group didn't really comply at any time during the study, not even getting below 20% fat, let alone 10%.

Edited by Application, 12 June 2013 - 01:58 AM.

[Sillewater]

https://robustbiolog...pathogenesis-i/
https://robustbiolog...athogenesis-ii/

This is my view of how diabetes progresses.

Basically its not insulin resistance, it's not FFAs, its beta-cell failure!