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Advice on a female situation

estrogen progesterone female bloating menses pregnenolone

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#1 Godot

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:54 PM


My wife has had terrible heavy periods for most of her life, with lots of bloating and cramping. Over the years, the doctors tried her on pretty much every type of birth control pill, usually making symptoms worse and bringing a lot of mood side effects. She's been off all of those for about 3 years.

Over the past two years, her bloating stopped going away in between periods. Suspecting some kind of food intolerance, she tried an elimination diet which included a full 6-month GFCF diet with no improvement. The bloating often seems worse at the end of the day, or after exercise.

A doctor put her on spironolactone, which helped a little, for a little while, and then stopped working -- and also stopped her period. Rather than take the doc's advice to try counteracting this side effect with another birth control pill, we weened her off the water pill over a period of 3 weeks, and now 2 months later her period has returned and she seems to be back to "normal."

Her blood tests were mostly normal -- TSH on the low side of normal (1.5), estrogen & progesterone normal. DHEA was a little high - idk what that means. Also, total cholesterol was a little high, which is a little unusual given her diet (low carb mostly-paleo).

Right now she's taking:
Jarrow B-Right b complex
1g time-released vitamin C and
Swanson red wine extract (w res & gse)
with breakfast +
200mg Magnesium (as malate) & 5000iu D3 at bedtime

Suspecting some kind of adrenal fatigue, I've got her started on very low dose pregnenolone (0.25mg/day right now)... too early to tell whether it's helping the water retention, but I think it may have helped get her period started again, which we were a little worried about.

We're all out of money for doctors and tests (which don't seem to be very helpful anyway.) Does anyone have any theories about what the symptom could mean, and how me might stop it?

#2 Tom_

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:12 PM

I have not got much of an idea but I will hit pubmed and some endocrinology books.

I will however leave you with one piece of advice. Adrenal Fatigue is not a diagnosis and there is no evidence that this phenomenon exists.

Changes in Adrenal function unless severe are unlikely to effect menstruation.
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#3 Godot

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 05:24 PM

Thanks for your response, and any pertinent research you can dig up would be greatly appreciated.

My thinking was to associate swelling with some kind of cortisol imbalance. I really don't know whether that's valid at this point though.

#4 Luminosity

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 03:58 AM

Sorry that she had to go through that and you with her. Western Medicine is actually not good for this kind of thing. Chinese medicine with the right practitioner is actually very good with this sort of concern. I am optimistic that she will can get much better. Here is a long to my thread about how to get a good practitioner and other stuff.

http://www.longecity...inese-medicine/

Edited by Luminosity, 01 April 2013 - 03:59 AM.

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#5 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 04:31 AM

This could be a long shot; but, could her problems be psychosomatic?
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#6 Tom_

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 11:44 AM

Psychosomatic won't be causing it but could be making it worse.

Ignore Chinese 'medicine' it is not in fact medicine and has not only no evidence but an appalling rate of improvement. Slightly under placebo.
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#7 tham

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:39 PM

Ignore Chinese 'medicine' it is not in fact medicine and has not only no evidence but an appalling rate of improvement. Slightly under placebo.





An example of extreme ill-information.


First :

25 percent of drugs come directly from 40 herbs.

Typical examples :

Aspirin - white willow bark
Digoxin - Common foxglove
Hyoscine, atropine - Deadly nightshade, or belladona
Paclitaxel - Yew bark


Second :

Traditional Chinese Medicine, while using 50 fundamental herbs, actually has no
less than four thousand herbs under its repertoire, compared to Western herbalism
which has some four hundred.

Ayurvedic medicine also has some four thousand herbs at its disposal.
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#8 Mia K.

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 03:51 PM

Hi Godot,

Sorry to read of your wife's experience with her menses. Wonderfully thoughtful of you to pursue help.

Does she also experience PMS? Just came across this, thanks to ConsumerLab:

http://aje.oxfordjou...je.kws363.short

Suggesting that women with higher intake of non-heme iron have less incidence of PMS, (higher potassium with greater incidence). My personal experience is that when I was a teen I had both heavy periods with terrible pain (I'd take NyQuil to knock myself out to get some respite), and PMS. I was a committed vegetarian in those not-so-halcyon days (rather a starchitarian, if you will - few greens), and was always turned away from donating blood for too-low Hematocrit.

Iron is necessary for proper thyroid function. Perhaps with her heavy-bleeding your wife is iron-deficient?

Good luck to you both! Best, Mia (edit to add "non-heme")

Edited by Mia K., 01 April 2013 - 03:58 PM.

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#9 tham

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 06:52 PM

NSAIDS
Tranexamic acid
Ormeloxifene

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3576768/

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3430088/



These herbs immediately come to mind.

Shepherd's purse
Cinnamon
Vitex
Cranesbill
Black horehound


http://www.mmspro.co...rhagia/~default


Note that the Chinese classical formula, Gui Zhi Fu Ling Wan, also uses,
among others, cinnamon. The other two key herbs are Peony and Moutan bark.

The Japanese Kampo equivalent is Keishi bukuryo-gan.

http://www.keio-kamp...html#category-k


http://www.drnick.ne...dex.php?p=67786

http://eagleherbs.co...fu-ling-wan-992

http://www.activeherb.com/guizhi/

http://en.wikipedia....izhi_Fuling_Wan


Another Chinese classical formula you may try is Xiong gui jiao ai tang.
or Tang kuei and gelatin combination.

Kampo equivalent Kyuki kyogai-to.

http://eagleherbs.co...ao-ai-tang-1045

http://www.americand...JiaoAiTang.html



Effect of Kyuki-kyogai-to on Stopping Dysfunctional Uterine Bleeding.
Comparison with Occidental Hematostatic Drug (tranexamic acid).


http://sciencelinks....500A0395083.php
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#10 Godot

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:04 PM

Thanks for your replies, folks.

Luminosity - At least for the next few months we live in an area devoid of traditional Chinese medicine practitioners. Is there a resource you'd recommend to help me understand how this problem might be approached from that perspective?

redan - I can't rule out psychosomatic, but I'm not convinced the problem is fully attributable to psych factors. I helped her make a hypnosis tape for herself which hasn't really helped.

Mia K - Thanks for your positive thoughts. She has been low on iron in the past but it seems to be normal in her recent tests.

tham - Thanks very much for the references. The main problem we're concerned with is the water retention, though.

Also, it's worth noting that it's been impossible for her to lose a few pounds, despite a really healthy calorie-restricted diet and regular exercise.

#11 tham

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:30 PM

That is the reason why herbs like Poria cocos (Fu Ling) and Cortex moutan
(Moutan bark) are included in the above formulas.

Her heavy periods, bloating and water retention is likely due to blood stagnation,
itself stemming from a lack of Chi.

Why not try taking her to see a TCM physician and take a course of herbs plus
acupuncture for a few months ?



Fu Ling ( Poria Cocos )

" Blood stagnation is not the only cause of lumps and bumps."Phlegm stagnation"
is essentially extra water that has stagnated and thickened into something preventing
the flow of qi and blood in the lower abdomen. This herb (fu ling, or hoelen) is excellent
for expelling extra water to address this secondary cause of female problems
. "



Mu Dan Pi (Cortex Moutan Radicis )

" The is the bark of the root of the peony tree. It too moves the Liver blood such
that it can regulate female hormones and menstrual functions. It isn't generally
thought of a fertility herb, but when everything is balanced and regulated, the
outcome would be fertility. "


http://eagleherbs.co...fu-ling-wan-992



" Gui Zhi Fu Ling Wan (Gui Zhi Fu Ling Pian , literally "Cinnamon & Poria Pills"
in Chinese, removes blood stasis, disintegrates masses, menstrual disturbance,
lochiorrhea after child birth, abdominal distention and pain, profuse leukorrhea, mass
in the lower abdomen. "

http://www.activeherb.com/guizhi/




" Cinnamon (Gui zhi), the chief herb, unblocks the blood vessels and reduces blood stasis
by promoting circulation.
Peach Pit (Tao ren), Peony Root (Shao yao), and Moutan Bark
(Mu dan pi) invigorate blood, break up and dispel blood stasis, and disperse accumulation.
Mu dan pi helps to disperse heat that can transform out of stagnation. It is excess heat
that can cause metrorrhagia and menorrhagia
. Dampness may also contribute to the
formation of masses and/or blood stasis, so Hoelen (Fu ling) is included to tonify the
spleen to resolve dampness. "

http://www.drnick.ne...dex.php?p=67786

Edited by tham, 02 April 2013 - 11:41 PM.

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#12 Tom_

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:23 AM

stankant fucking chi..what a load of bollocks. Chinese herbal hocus pocus is a load off shit and certainly not medicine. Its possibly dangrous and totally unevidenced. Try some medicine rather than witchcraft.

P.s. been ill not really had a chance to read up will post reply later tonight or tomorrow - on medical interventions, my books on shaman and conning people out of money haven't arrived yet.
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#13 Luminosity

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 05:46 AM

Godot,

I would read my thread first. It goes into some principles behind Chinese medicine that you can use now, like some diet and lifestyle advice that you might not expect.

The typos in my posts are so embarrassing! Previously, I wrote "long" instead of "link"! I have to use a computer in a noisy environment.

There is a book in my link that you could mail order if necessary.

As Tham has posted, there would be herbal formulas that would help. Ideally, those are best prescribed by a good practitioner. Not every formula is right for every person. Some brands of medicine are better than others. Some are formulated traditionally. Some use raw herbs when they would not traditionally do that. The energy of those can be too "cold." Some of those raw brands are pure and fresh so you can correct that by leaving those pills in a bottle covered with brandy or other liquor for a month or so until they marinate in the brandy and form a sludge. As you will see on my thread, someone came across counterfeit Chinese medicines.

For now, I would ask her to stop drinking cold drinks and eating cold food, as my thread explains. Eat three meals a day, preferably with hot dishes at each one. Eating a hot breakfast is particularly good, with a hot drink. Limit caffeine. Cut any sodas and energy drinks down or out. Limit sugar or cut it out. Eating a steamed green vegetable each day is a good idea Eating yams or sweet potatoes is a good idea. If she does not object, eating red meat may help. Eating fresh fish and healthy fats is a good idea. Eating a low or no carb diet is not a usually a good idea. It could be a contributing factor. I'm not an authority on how to transfer to back to eating carbs, perhaps gradually? Perhaps with the easiest to digest? If so sweet potatoes and yams may qualify. Getting off the low carb thing should be considered and looked into. In Chinese Medicine the bloating can be related to impaired kidney function which could be made worse by eating excess protein. The types of things some people do when they live without carbs can also make kidney function worse, energy drinks, caffeine, extreme habits. I'm not sure if the actual lack of carbs hurts the kidneys, but it might? I'd transition out of that. I have written elsewhere on this site more than once that low fat or carb diets can affect women more adversely than men. I would read my thread, try to get that book and look for the best herbal formula to fit her symptoms. I will message you some more info.

Chinese medicine really shines when it comes to menstrual problems.


To the guy that suggested this is psychosomatic:

Can you post your address so I can have all the women with severe PMS come explain to you what they think of that?

Edited by Luminosity, 03 April 2013 - 06:20 AM.


#14 Tom_

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:50 AM

This isn't even PMS you twit. You are so lost in your own bollocks you can't make a proper diagnosis, let alone should be suggesting treatment options.

Now on to some real medicine and a diagnosis.

Diagnosis menorrhagia - cause as yet I can't see an obvious one beyond it not being stagnated magical forces.

You said her bloods were normal, I assume any self respecting doctor did a Full/Complete blood count (F/CBC) which involve platelet information. Since said doctor is not totally retarded I'm going out on a limb and going to say he repeated them to check for any relapsing and remitting cogulation disease and it is faily contentedly I wipe that off as a cause.

She was unresponsive to progestrone & while a IUS should have been used first it seems it wasn't it makes little difference, I'm going out on a limb and ruling out exessive build up of endometrial lining.

Most of the other causes don't fit the presentation.

You said her thyoid was not fully functioning - in fact it is working perfectly.

That leaves endocrine disorders - which seem unlikely in an otherwise healthy woman (she is?): Atypical presentation of polycystic ovary syndrome could be a posibility. It is however not adrenal fatigue - this NOT BEING A DIAGNOSIS AND NOT EVIDENCE BASED. The bad news is I can't, and no one else is going to be able to make a diagnosis (a real one) online and if you live in a country where you have to pay for healthcare then there isn't all that much we can advise.

You are better off treating the symptoms as unless other symptoms become apprent which they seem not to have then the disorder will likely run a stable course.

As mentioned earlier Asprin or Ibprophen reduce bleeding by around 30% and help with cramps using in combo carefully could work surprisingly well - or not at all.
Tranexamic acid is in some places over the counter and also has been shown to reduce bleeding
if you can find it Gonadotrophin-releasing hormone agonists have been shown effective

If you haven't seen one you should be seeing an endocrinologist - they tend to be one of the most intelligent doctors out there and really know their field (not all of course) I know money is an issue.

if shes overweight she should lose the exess - is accociated with these syndromes, if she struggerling to lose weight it might give you a better idea of whats wrong.

If you insist on blowing your money on chinese herbs be aware you are doing just that.

Edited by Tom_, 03 April 2013 - 06:52 AM.

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#15 Tom_

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 07:01 AM


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#16 Luminosity

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 07:02 AM

I didn't say she had PMS. It's related enough that I'm sure that lots of women would like to explain to you how their menstrual problems are not in their heads.

It's amazing how medical interventions FAILED and you keep insisting that they are the only way.

You say treat the symptoms although the last time they did that it got worse.

You somehow state that her thyroid is functioning perfectly, as if you could know that. I have no opinion on that and an not particularly focused on that, but thyroid tests are not that sensitive. Many times people have symptoms of thyroid deficiency and benefit from medication even though they test negative.

You're ruling out excessive build up of the endometrial lining? As if you could know that?

#17 Tom_

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 07:16 AM

Yes, then we look at how chinese herbs defy the laws of physics themselves if they work and I'm pretty content to continue suggesting medical interventions. I'm assuming these interventions have failed due to suboptimal care. There is a clear treatment algorithm which seems to have been somewhat haphazidly applied and I am hoping this was by no more than a general practitioner.

Her thryoid is functioning perfectly because he told us the TSH level and 1.5 is within optimum range, I assume if any other thyroid tests were abnormal or thought to be we would have heard about them. I imagine that might be true - people do improve for no apprent reason possibley as much as 16-22% surpringly close to the placebo...T3
increases 5HTP making people happier as well..mmm seems a very valid theory. Now that I do call psychosomatic in a majority of cases.

I'm ruling out endometrial lining because she didn't respond to multible treatments for it. Since I don't have access to her and my fully stocked lab that is it would seem the best I can do. Its not a perfect way to rule a condition out, ideally I'd have a qulified medic shove something up there for a look.

Just because I am in an exceptionally fowl and arguementive mood there is also evidence linking menstrual problems to poor mental health, both causitive and worse prognosis. But thats by the by I don't think this is all in her head.

#18 tham

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:31 PM

There are only a few conditions which have all three symptoms of heavy periods,
bloating and cramps :

PMS, aggravated by autoimmune disease
Fibroids
Endometriosis
Polycystic ovary syndrome



http://www.hystersis...ad.php?t=246717


http://www.womens-he...rian-cysts.html

http://www.womens-he...x.html#Symptoms

http://www.womens-he...s.html#Symptoms


" Pre-menstrual Syndrome - Autoimmune disease symptoms often increase around the
menstrual cycle. Extreme bloating, painful cramps, heavy bleeding and irregular cycle
are common. "

http://www.evenbette...se-symptoms.php



" Bloating or fullness, Heavy menstrual bleeding, Irregular menstrual periods
and Muscle cramps or spasms "

http://symptomchecke...ons=32|32|32|32



" Chinese Medicine excels at the all-natural treatment of women's health. "

http://bodymindwelln...s-and-bloating/



Diagnosis in Chinese Medicine

http://bodymindwelln...inese-medicine/



" In Chinese Medicine, fundamental disturbances in the flow of blood and energy,
predispose many women to menstrual irregularity, premenstrual symptoms,
heavy bleeding and painful periods
. "


" Vitex is a herb that has been used with great success for women’s menstrual
symptoms (physical, psychological and behavioural) of low progesterone in the
luteal phase of a cycle (depression, crying, despondency, mood swings, hormonal
acne, nervousness and anxiety) and high oestrogen levels (pain, tender breasts,
heavy periods, bloating). In Chinese Medicine Vitex helps to harmonise the energetic
flow to the reproductive organs and helps the Pituitary and Hypothalamus to modulate
these hormones thereby reducing pre-menstrual symptoms. "

http://www.askanatur...onal-acne/p/317



Solving the Premenstrual Syndrome Mystery with Chinese Medicine

http://www.tcmpage.com/hp_pms.html



Traditonal Chinese Medicine and a Woman's Period

http://www.hantang.c...icles/woman.htm
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#19 Godot

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:41 PM

Majorly different points of view here. Thanks everybody for expressing them, and tham thanks for the links, I will look them over. I'm especially interested in the herbs you mentioned that may be useful for bloating, but I'll have to see if I can find any studies on them.

I'll look over your thread for sure, Luminosity. I'm not sure how much I can buy into the hot vs cold drinks business, but I'll keep an open mind.

Tom, thanks for your informed opinion and yes now that I think of it TSH 1.5 should be just about perfect. Any readily available substances you can think of that could treat the symptoms of bloating and inability to lose weight? It sounds like what people describe as estrogen dominance in some ways, but her hormone panel was normal.

Tham - more great info, thanks. I tried her on vitex for a while before the spironolactone madness, and it seemed to have no effect.

#20 Mia K.

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 03:31 PM

Thanks for your replies, folks.

Mia K - Thanks for your positive thoughts. She has been low on iron in the past but it seems to be normal in her recent tests.

Also, it's worth noting that it's been impossible for her to lose a few pounds, despite a really healthy calorie-restricted diet and regular exercise.



Hi Godot,

Do I understand that your wife doesn't have PMS? If not she is fortunate in this regard!

Now, the TSH is a measure of a pituitary hormone, and solely on the basis of an in-range reading doesn't guarantee that her thyroid is functioning well.

Has she had her RBC Mg (red blood cell Magnesium) tested? Not serum/blood as in a typical workup, but RBCell? If not I'd surely look into this. HealthCheckUsa can run the test at a reasonable cost, if your Dr(s) don't approve it.

As to the bloating and lack of weight loss, does Mrs. Godot have the cravings around her time of month for the fatty/sugary/calorie laden stuff that so many of us have, and are which so-o-o hard to resist? I know I did, and usually gave into them and wasn't about to admit to anyone that I'd eaten (ahem) 6-7 Donuts or eclairs in a sitting. This resulted in water-retention & no weight loss for sure. Here I mean no disrespect, just asking.

Also, how restricted are her calories? The female body, especially in the reproductive years doesn't take kindly to what it perceives as possible starvation.

I know nothing about TCM.

Again, I wish you well, & that your detective work is rewarded with solutions you both seek. :)

Best, Mia
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#21 Tom_

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 03:57 PM

Mia K, nearly any medic will have a full blood count - although RBC magnesium wouldn't be involved in that - I see no reason for that test, any reasoning behind it?

An well in range reading has a very small margin of error.
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#22 Mia K.

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:37 PM

I see that she's supplementing with 200 mg Mg malate. This is minimal supp. in my opinion.

One can have normal serum Mg and still be low in RBC Mg.

I'd check out this basic (as I have for myself) just as I'd supp with D3 based on testing before going on with hormone testing/replacement, etc., or trying herbs.

Be well, Mia

#23 tham

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 09:49 AM

stankant fucking chi..what a load of bollocks. Chinese herbal hocus pocus is a load off shit and certainly not medicine. Its possibly dangrous and totally unevidenced. Try some medicine rather than witchcraft.




Are you insulting and libelling my race ? You've gone overboard against the board's regulations here,
and in any forum on the internet for that matter.

A low-life piece of scum like you shouldn't be allowed in a prestigious life extension forum of such professionalism.

Weren't you one of Himmler's henchmen in Auschwitz, Dachau, Buchenwald or Bergen-Belsen, which
the Nuremberg courts overlooked to hang ?

I'm surprised the administrators of the Immortality Institute haven't removed this piece of trash as yet.
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#24 Thorsten3

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 10:17 AM

Psychosomatic won't be causing it but could be making it worse.

Ignore Chinese 'medicine' it is not in fact medicine and has not only no evidence but an appalling rate of improvement. Slightly under placebo.


OP,

I've got a better idea; Ignore this poster, who has absolutely no clue what he is talking about.

OP, I wouldn't disregard Chinese medicine (which, unlike Western medicine, has thousands of years of evolution behind it) just becasue of ignorant comments like these.

Chinese medicine is a minefield, but, if you can get a good practioner you could potentially solve this issue.

Edited by Thorsten2, 04 April 2013 - 10:18 AM.

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#25 Tom_

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:59 PM

Actually if you read my posts very very carefully you will find great disdain for Chinese or any poor/un-evidence based treatments. I don't care what country, culture or religion you come from - what difference should that make to your ability to provide sensible RATIONAL treatment options?

Life extension at least when effective is a SCIENCE. Chinese treatments (I refuse to call it medicine: its definition provided http://oxforddiction...nglish/medicine) is not scientific.

I admit I shouldn't have sworn - past that I am in no wrong. Look to your own hand before you start casting stones...calling someone scum and bla bla bla - I didn't mention names nor personally slur anyone. Then again, you may call me what you wish, I don't care but Nazi, now that's just childish. Its the hypocrisy and double standards you are putting into play I have a problem with & the fact you scream race from the outset. - all aimed at tham

Thorsten - w/e no problem what so ever with you...other than you like Chinese treatments but I can't change that ;) & what ever you were saying about 1000s of years to evolve, certainly doesn't mean it has.

Dear OP, do what ever you please, I'm just here for the debate now (Although I am still scanning for treatment options and have 6 ideas I'm chasing down...all with at least a single blind trials behind them). I am hoping to make a final related post in the next day or so once I've had time to finish a book. Its likely to involve two plus ideas.
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#26 Luminosity

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 04:18 AM

For ten years I ran a support group for people with certain health conditions. Many of them had thyroid conditions, usually hypo (low) thyroid. I'm not saying that Godot's girlfriend has that. What I learned is that the test for that condition does not pick up many of the people who have it. Tests that currently exist are too insensitive or otherwise inadequate. They had all the symptoms and benefited from the right medications which (may not be the one most commonly used right now). I AM NOT TRYING TO STEER GODOT'S GIRLFRIEND TOWARDS GETTING THYROID MEDICATION. I am just making a point that "tests" can be too insensitive to be used with so much confidence.

Similarly, one of my MD's told me that the available tests for hormones are quite insensitive. For instance, they could not detect a pre-menopausal woman; they could only detect one in full menopause. There are many abnormalities in the hormones that are not detectable by tests available by MD's, according to an MD. So bandying about test results like they were laser swords in a nerd fight . . . is not something an MD would do.

I agree with Mia that a vitamin D3 would be helpful, although not curative. I like Source Naturals D3 2000 i.u. taken with a meal containing fat or oil once a day. It is available from Swanson's and Vitacost.com. More magnesium may help too, if it is tolerated. I forget if a B6 is used, but if not, it may help.

Obviously, I agree with Tham that Chinese medicine is the answer. I don't think anything else will fix this.

Edited by Luminosity, 05 April 2013 - 04:19 AM.


#27 Luminosity

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 05:24 AM

I also concur with Mia that the female body particularly resents deprivation such as that from a low carb or low fat diet. I went on a lot of extreme diets myself, including a low carb diet. I thought it was healthy at the time. I don't now.

Edited by Luminosity, 05 April 2013 - 06:01 AM.


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#28 tham

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 05:40 PM

Some good books on Chinese medicine.



Ancient Healing for Modern Women:
Traditional Chinese Medicine for All Phases of a Woman's Life

http://www.amazon.co...l/dp/0802715672

http://www.abebooks....5678/9243673887

Apparently Zhao Xiaolan's book is more about general lifestyle and diet
guidance rather than recommendations and explanations of specific herbs.




The following two books by Zhao Xiaolan are identical to her "Ancient Healing" book above.


Traditional Chinese Medicine for Women:
Reflections of the Moon on Water

http://www.abebooks....e Moon on Water


Reflections of the Moon on Water: Healing Women's
Bodies and Minds through Traditional Chinese Wisdom

http://www.abebooks....L?bi=8887241126



Acupuncture and Chinese Herbal Medicine for Women's Health:
Bridging the Gap Between Western and Eastern Medicine

http://www.goodreads...-women-s-health

http://www.abebooks....hleen Albertson




Traditional Chinese Medicine: an Authoritative and Comprehensive Guide

http://www.abebooks....L?bi=8715966209





Ancient Herbs, Modern Medicine

http://www.abebooks....y&sts=t&x=0&y=0



Thousand Formulas and Thousand Herbs of Traditional Chinese Medicine

http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B002HUM27K



Practical Chinese Medicine

http://www.abebooks....n/9780806987293


The Chinese Medicine Bible

http://www.abebooks....n/9781402780912


Chinese Herbal Medicine - A Practical Guide To The Healing Power Of Herbs

http://www.abebooks....n/9780091809447



Chinese Medicine: The Web That Has No Weaver

http://www.abebooks....1725/9797929731

http://www.goodreads...t_Has_No_Weaver

Edited by tham, 05 April 2013 - 06:23 PM.

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