27 replies to this topic

[misterE]

Low-carb diets are very popular. But from a longevity standpoint, low-carb diets are deficient in foods that are known to promote health and longevity (fruits, vegetables, whole-grains and beans).

Carbohydrate is primarily found in plant-based foods. Animal-foods (except for milk and honey) are completely deficient in carbohydrates. Plant-foods also have other beneficial properties: they contain phytonutrients and dietary-fiber, which are well known to promote health and they lack harmful substances that cause disease like saturated-fat and dioxins.

Below is a list of foods and the percentage of calories as carbohydrate.

Apple = 96% carbohydrate.
Sweet Potato = 93% carbohydrate.
Grapes = 93% carbohydrate.
Potato = 93% carbohydrate.
Banana = 93% carbohydrate.
Orange = 91% carbohydrate.
Blueberries = 91% carbohydrate.
Onion = 90% carbohydrate.
Barley = 90% carbohydrate.
Watermelon = 89% carbohydrate.
Carrot = 89% carbohydrate.
Kiwi = 87% carbohydrate.
Rice = 86% carbohydrate.
Garlic = 85% carbohydrate.
Green Bell Pepper = 85% carbohydrate.
Radish = 83% carbohydrate.
Wheat = 83% carbohydrate.
Corn = 82% carbohydrate.
Millet = 80% carbohydrate.
Tomato = 79% carbohydrate.
Pinto Beans = 78% carbohydrate.
Cauliflower = 78% carbohydrate.
Lettuce = 76% carbohydrate.
Zucchini = 73% carbohydrate.
Celery = 73% carbohydrate.
Kale = 72% carbohydrate.
Broccoli = 71% carbohydrate.
Quinoa = 71% carbohydrate.
Lentils = 70% carbohydrate.
Oats = 70% carbohydrate.
Collard Greens = 68% carbohydrate.
Asparagus = 68% carbohydrate.

Edited by misterE, 10 April 2013 - 12:21 AM.

[niner]

This list isn't particularly useful because it doesn't tell you how much of the carbohydrate is in the form of simple sugars. Apple is obviously very different from Kale, but they are both majority-carbohydrate. Just not the same carbohydrates. There are good carbs and there are bad carbs.

[DR01D]

Most of the food I eat on a daily basis is plant based and some of it is on that list.

However if all I ate was plant based food I'd be malnourished. Vitamin B12 is really only found in meat. Vegans have to take supplements or eat processed foods with the vitamins they aren't getting. That shows that a vegan diet is unnatural to humans. Although vegetarianism is better than the junk food that most people eat it's not ideal for human biology.

Vegetarian Resource Group: Vitamin B12 in the Vegan Diet

The requirement for vitamin B12 is very low, but it is essential. Non-animal sources include Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula or T-6635+ nutritional yeast (a little less than 1 Tablespoon supplies the adult RDA) and vitamin B12 fortified soy milk. It is especially important for pregnant and lactating women, infants, and children to have reliable sources of vitamin B12 in their diets.

Edited by DR01D, 10 April 2013 - 06:01 AM.

[hippocampus]

From a longevity standpoint: almost no centenerians are/were vegeterians/vegans. Simple sugars promote aging, so it's all about low GI (or whatever index) foods and diversity.

[DePaw]

Most low carbers actually eat a lot more vegetables than most vegetarian/vegans. It's easy to eat plenty of vegetables and still keep carbs low, leafy green vegetables, non-sweet fruit (tomato/cucumber), even carbier stuff like carrots can be eaten depending on your carb limit.

A cup each of kale, tomatoes, cauliflower, lettuce, zucchini, broccoli, collard greens, peppers, and asparagus (9 cups of vegetables) comes out to 29g net carb (carb - fibre), which is acceptable for induction phase, after that you start adding more carbs, including fruit, legumes, nuts, and whole grains. The point is to find out how much your body can handle (first for continuing to lose weight then once you're near your target how much to not gain it back). Some end up, after a period of healing, being able to handle a lot more carbs than they thought they could, and include plenty of whole grains or other carby foods.

Edited by DePaw, 10 April 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[misterE]

This list isn't particularly useful because it doesn't tell you how much of the carbohydrate is in the form of simple sugars. Apple is obviously very different from Kale, but they are both majority-carbohydrate. Just not the same carbohydrates. There are good carbs and there are bad carbs.

What kind of carbohydrate is in kale... sugar or starch? Do you believe that sugar is a bad carb even if it comes in fruit, surrounded by fiber and phytonutrients? Do you think fruits are better or worse than whole-grains?

[misterE]

Vitamin B12 is really only found in meat.

Or in nutritional-yeast.

[misterE]

From a longevity standpoint: almost no centenerians are/were vegeterians/vegans.

True. But the population with the greatest longevity is the Okinawans; who eat nearly a 90% carbohydrate diet. And carbohydrate comes from plant-food.

it's all about low GI

So is it healthier to eat a stick of butter rather than a carrot? Butter is very low-GI while a carrot is very high-GI.

Edited by misterE, 11 April 2013 - 12:14 AM.

[eddielang]

From a longevity standpoint: almost no centenerians are/were vegeterians/vegans.

True. But the population with the greatest longevity is the Okinawans; who eat nearly a 90% carbohydrate diet. And carbohydrate comes from plant-food.

it's all about low GI

So is it healthier to eat a stick of butter rather than a carrot? Butter is very low-GI while a carrot is very high-GI.

Maybe.... Depends on what you are trying to do. For me, grass fed butter vs. carrot, butter wins. Calories are easy, nutrition not so much. More ROS with Carbohydrate than Fat, so less mitochondrial damage and likely longer life. Easy binary choice for me.


Also, there is more to the environment than food alone. But the 10% non long chain starch Okinawans eat is mostly seafood.

I just try to eat things that I can find in my local environment, in season, and that can be eaten without processing. Oddly enough, seafood and sea veggies make up most of it. All the EPA/DHA is what very probably made us grow big brains in the first place during the MIS6 glacial period. (Speculative side note: Likely also our transition to hairless aquatic upright apes. And might also explain the lack of transitional hominid fossils.) I like that it helps explains our differences from other primates, and our similarities to other hairless mammals.

http://www.nature.co...can0810-54.html


On a related note, what do you guys make of the pseudo ketogenic state induced by a long chain starch only diet? (Potato only diet)

http://high-fat-nutr...zero-fat_3.html

It has made me second think a lot of what I've understood to be true about our metabolism, and food in general.

I eat real food, when we find it in nature, as we find it in nature, not broken down for parts, and not combined with other foods broken down for parts. I do however reserve my right to 'hack this' to some degree if there is benefit to health and longevity.

[MrHappy]

Here's a spanner: I'm a low-carb vegetarian. It has some challenges, but nutrients aren't a major issue. I do supplement, but I always have..

I have an excel spreadsheet at work with a list of low-carb vegetables, which I can post, if anyone wants it.

[Mind]

I would be interested to see the list, not sure if this the best thread. Maybe better in a low-carb diet thread or a paleo thread?

[Iporuru]

From a longevity standpoint: almost no centenerians are/were vegeterians/vegans. Simple sugars promote aging, so it's all about low GI (or whatever index) foods and diversity.

Carbs also raise the risk of cognitive impairment: http://www.worldheal...eimers-disease/

[misterE]

If you don't eat don't eat much carbohydrate, you get your calories from fat and protein. High-fat diets are consistently shown in the scientific-literature to induce diabetes, atherosclerosis and obesity. High-protein diets (especially animal-protein) can induce cancer, osteoporosis, and diabetes. High-protein and high-fat diets also are also calorie-dense diets (because fat has twice as much calories as carbohydrate: 9 vs. 4). Excess calories are also well known to accelerate aging.





Eating a starch based-diet (beans, grains, vegetables and potatoes) is the only diet proven to reverse type-2 diabetes, atherosclerosis, and prostate-cancer. This type of diet saves you thousands of dollars at the market and reduces the demand of synthetic pharmaceutical drugs/ surgeries and reduces our demand for our precious resources; it is the most sustainable diet for the future and the ever expanding population (environmentally)!





The solution is so obvious, but dark forces are holding it back from being common knowledge, mainly to protect the huge profit being made from human disease and suffering. Also if a population is obese and unhealthy (and basically estrogenic), they are much more easily manipulated… seeing as how current events are going, I believe it is peril that Americans get into shape and regain their health by adopting a high-complex-carbohydrate/high-fiber diet.

Edited by misterE, 12 April 2013 - 02:55 AM.

[MrHappy]

If you don't eat don't eat much carbohydrate, you get your calories from fat and protein. High-fat diets are consistently shown in the scientific-literature to induce diabetes, atherosclerosis and obesity. High-protein diets (especially animal-protein) can induce cancer, osteoporosis, and diabetes. High-protein and high-fat diets also are also calorie-dense diets (because fat has twice as much calories as carbohydrate: 9 vs. 4). Excess calories are also well known to accelerate aging.





Eating a starch based-diet (beans, grains, vegetables and potatoes) is the only diet proven to reverse type-2 diabetes, atherosclerosis, and prostate-cancer. This type of diet saves you thousands of dollars at the market and reduces the demand of synthetic pharmaceutical drugs/ surgeries and reduces our demand for our precious resources; it is the most sustainable diet for the future and the ever expanding population (environmentally)!





The solution is so obvious, but dark forces are holding it back from being common knowledge, mainly to protect the huge profit being made from human disease and suffering. Also if a population is obese and unhealthy (and basically estrogenic), they are much more easily manipulated… seeing as how current events are going, I believe it is peril that Americans get into shape and regain their health by adopting a high-complex-carbohydrate/high-fiber diet.

.. wut?

Not sure if trolling.

[eddielang]

If you don't eat don't eat much carbohydrate, you get your calories from fat and protein. High-fat diets are consistently shown in the scientific-literature to induce diabetes, atherosclerosis and obesity. High-protein diets (especially animal-protein) can induce cancer, osteoporosis, and diabetes. High-protein and high-fat diets also are also calorie-dense diets (because fat has twice as much calories as carbohydrate: 9 vs. 4). Excess calories are also well known to accelerate aging.





Eating a starch based-diet (beans, grains, vegetables and potatoes) is the only diet proven to reverse type-2 diabetes, atherosclerosis, and prostate-cancer. This type of diet saves you thousands of dollars at the market and reduces the demand of synthetic pharmaceutical drugs/ surgeries and reduces our demand for our precious resources; it is the most sustainable diet for the future and the ever expanding population (environmentally)!





The solution is so obvious, but dark forces are holding it back from being common knowledge, mainly to protect the huge profit being made from human disease and suffering. Also if a population is obese and unhealthy (and basically estrogenic), they are much more easily manipulated… seeing as how current events are going, I believe it is peril that Americans get into shape and regain their health by adopting a high-complex-carbohydrate/high-fiber diet.

Can you link these studies? Are they epidemiological or ward clinical trials? Were they only eating the foods you mentioned? What was the environment in these studies that "prove" to reduce the conditions you cited? Is it the removal of processed man made non-foods, or the inclusion of other foods that allowed them to reverse their disease? What were these people eating before?

There are clinical ward ketogenic studies which produce some impressive results in disease reversal as well, so I'd love to learn more about what you've discovered as I've found mostly contrary evidence in my research.

Perhaps it's not the macronutrients, but the types of macronutrients (man made non natural short chain vs long chain vs med chain fatty acids, or long chain starch vs short chain carbohydrate), and the packaging (is the food processed?).

Or maybe it's micronutrients at play here reversing disease. It's not likely that disease is caused by fuel deficiency, but rather a nutrient deficiency. Though it's also possible that disease can be caused by a dearth of unnatural man made foods that we have not evolved with and removing them from the diet allows the body to fix itself.

Just from a base level of observation it seems like we've been endowed with our own endogenous fuel of saturated fat for an evolutionary benefit, not detriment. Also consider our first accessible complete human food is mostly fat.

Also, what fuel substrate causes more mitochondrial damage? This is my chief consideration.

The other issue I would look at is that most of the foods you cited require some processing in order for us to digest them without illness, and I would be unable to find most of them in the middle of winter.

Thanks!

TLDR: maybe it's the type of fuel, maybe it's the nutrient value, or maybe it's the removal of non-foods that reverse disease. Lets dig in.

[hippocampus]

From a longevity standpoint: almost no centenerians are/were vegeterians/vegans.

True. But the population with the greatest longevity is the Okinawans; who eat nearly a 90% carbohydrate diet. And carbohydrate comes from plant-food.

epidemiology can suck my dick

it's all about low GI

So is it healthier to eat a stick of butter rather than a carrot? Butter is very low-GI while a carrot is very high-GI.

maybe I should say "regarding carbohydrates it's a lot (but not everything) about low GI or whatever other insulin index".

[niner]

The solution is so obvious, but dark forces are holding it back from being common knowledge, mainly to protect the huge profit being made from human disease and suffering. Also if a population is obese and unhealthy (and basically estrogenic), they are much more easily manipulated… seeing as how current events are going, I believe it is peril that Americans get into shape and regain their health by adopting a high-complex-carbohydrate/high-fiber diet.

You've made the jump from vegan ideology to paranoid conspiracy theory. Welcome to the Internet!

[Florent Berthet]

From a longevity standpoint: almost no centenerians are/were vegeterians/vegans.

We have to factor the fact that vegetarians/vegans only represent a fraction of the population. It shouldn't surprise us then that most supercentenarians come from the group of meat-eaters, which it is much bigger than the vegetarian group.

We should look at the longevity of people who follow an omnivorous diet and a healthy lifestyle and compare it to vegetarians/vegans who have an equally healthy lifestyle.

Do some of you have any info on that?

[misterE]

Do some of you have any info on that?

There is no strictly vegan/vegetarian society; basically all societies ate a bit of meat or fish, but the society with the greatest longevity (the Okinawans) eats a low-fat/high-carbohydrate diet. And remember, carbohydrate comes from plants. Saturated-fat comes from animal-foods. So in essence the Okinawans eat a low-animal/high-plant food based diet.





Circulation. 2008; 118: 214-215

Dietary Patterns and Longevity

Lawrence J. Appel, MD, MPH

“dietary patterns associated with longevity emphasize fruits and vegetables and are reduced in saturated fat, meats, dairy products, refined grains and sweets, … in other aspects of healthy diets, particularly macronutrient intake, (the) traditional Okinawan diets provide ≥90% of calories from carbohydrate.”









J Am Coll Nutr. 2009 Aug;28 Suppl:500S-516S.

The Okinawan diet: health implications of a low-calorie, nutrient-dense, antioxidant-rich dietary pattern low in glycemic load.

Willcox DC, Willcox BJ, Todoriki H.

“the traditional Okinawan diet is the lowest in fat intake, particularly in terms of saturated fat, and highest in carbohydrate intake”

Edited by misterE, 13 April 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[misterE]

Can you link these studies? Are they epidemiological or ward clinical trials? Were they only eating the foods you mentioned?

JAMA. 1998 Dec 16;280(23):2001-7. Intensive lifestyle changes for reversal of coronary heart disease. Ornish D, Scherwitz LW, Billings JH.



J Fam Pract. 1995 Dec;41(6):560-8. A strategy to arrest and reverse coronary artery disease: a 5-year longitudinal study of a single physician's practice. Esselstyn CB Jr, Ellis SG, Medendorp SV.



Diabetes Care. 1982 Jul-Aug;5(4):370-4. Response of non-insulin-dependent diabetic patients to an intensive program of diet and exercise. Barnard RJ, Lattimore L, Holly RG.



Diabetes Care. 1983 May-Jun;6(3):268-73. Long-term use of a high-complex-carbohydrate, high-fiber, low-fat diet and exercise in the treatment of NIDDM patients. Barnard RJ, Massey MR, Cherny S.



Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Sep;86(3):s889-93. Prostate cancer prevention by nutritional means to alleviate metabolic syndrome. Barnard RJ.

J Urol. 2005 Sep;174(3):1065-9; Intensive lifestyle changes may affect the progression of prostate cancer. Ornish D, Weidner G, Fair WR.



These studies were clinical trials, using a low-fat /high-fiber complex-carbohydrate diet (beans, grains, vegetables and fruits).

Edited by misterE, 13 April 2013 - 05:18 PM.

[eddielang]

Can you link these studies? Are they epidemiological or ward clinical trials? Were they only eating the foods you mentioned?

JAMA. 1998 Dec 16;280(23):2001-7. Intensive lifestyle changes for reversal of coronary heart disease. Ornish D, Scherwitz LW, Billings JH.



J Fam Pract. 1995 Dec;41(6):560-8. A strategy to arrest and reverse coronary artery disease: a 5-year longitudinal study of a single physician's practice. Esselstyn CB Jr, Ellis SG, Medendorp SV.



Diabetes Care. 1982 Jul-Aug;5(4):370-4. Response of non-insulin-dependent diabetic patients to an intensive program of diet and exercise. Barnard RJ, Lattimore L, Holly RG.



Diabetes Care. 1983 May-Jun;6(3):268-73. Long-term use of a high-complex-carbohydrate, high-fiber, low-fat diet and exercise in the treatment of NIDDM patients. Barnard RJ, Massey MR, Cherny S.



Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Sep;86(3):s889-93. Prostate cancer prevention by nutritional means to alleviate metabolic syndrome. Barnard RJ.

J Urol. 2005 Sep;174(3):1065-9; Intensive lifestyle changes may affect the progression of prostate cancer. Ornish D, Weidner G, Fair WR.



These studies were clinical trials, using a low-fat /high-fiber complex-carbohydrate diet (beans, grains, vegetables and fruits).

So all of these are on diseased persons, not all were ward studies. Intervention to remove the non-food crap does not mean that what they replaced it with was optimal for health or longevity. And the markers they use to test improvement leave a bit to be desired, weak correlations from my viewpoint. Would like to see telomere length, hs-crp etc...

But yeah, if you remove the bulk of artificial foods people will get healthier, that is obvious, and I believe some of the low carb studies have results on the same principle. But eating nothing but corn oil to induce ketosis would be a shit show just like eating nothing but wheat. I don't believe health is about macros until they hit your mitochondria...

Until I see a ward study on markers of healthy people on a real foods plants only vs. real foods animals and plants, I'm going to side with my mitochondria and let them burn fat, produce less ROS, and hopefully live longer.

I believe that it's not our choice of food, but that we even have one. We have access to manufactured non-foods, and foods that do not exist in our climates, or season. That is a more probable evolutionary misstep that may have caused many if not all of our woes.

It's the environment. We are the only animal that controls our environment to such a radical degree. Food is a big part of it.

Edited by eddielang, 15 April 2013 - 12:28 AM.

[misterE]

So all of these are on diseased persons, not all were ward studies.

Until I see a ward study on markers of healthy people on a real foods plants only vs. real foods animals and plants, I'm going to side with my mitochondria and let them burn fat,

Ornish, Esselstyn and Pritikin studies were done on real living people. Ornish noted that when people changed from a high-fat/low-carb diet to a low-fat/high-carb diet, over 500 genes had been changed and that the telomere length was actually increased! The same diet that cures heart-disease will also cure diabetes and reduce the risk of cancers.

The mitochondria in the cells prefer glucose as a fuel source, not fatty-acids. Fat inside the cells (which is technically called intramyocellular-lipids) is the cause of insulin-resistance at the cellular level [1-3]. When fat is inside the cell, it literally blocks insulin-signaling. Also oxidizing-fat, which is essential for weight-loss, actually causes high concentrations of lipid-peroxides (free-radicals). The body doesn't like to burn fat, burning fat is what diabetics do. The body would rather burn glucose and keep fat stored away in the adipose-tissue, where it is unable to generate free-redicals or induce insulin-resistance.

Diabetics or people who are insulin-resistant, are chronically undergoing lipolysis and burning intramyocelluar-lipids (fat) for energy (instead of glucose, which remains circulating in the blood), while this is good for weight-loss, it temporarily causes insulin-resistance and has other damaging effects. The pharmaceutical-drug Acipimox, which inhibits lipolysis and reduces the amount of fat that goes into the cells, is well known to promote insulin-sensitivity.

Diabetologia. 1999 Jan;42(1):113-6. Intramyocellular lipid concentrations are correlated with insulin sensitivity in humans: a 1H NMR spectroscopy study. Krssak M, Falk Petersen K, Dresner A.

Diabetes. 1999 May;48(5):1113-9. Association of increased intramyocellular lipid content with insulin resistance in lean nondiabetic offspring of type 2 diabetic subjects. Jacob S, Machann J, Rett K.

Am J Med. 2006 May;119(5 Suppl 1):S10-6. Etiology of insulin resistance. Petersen KF, Shulman GI.

Edited by misterE, 17 April 2013 - 12:11 AM.

[eddielang]

So all of these are on diseased persons, not all were ward studies.

Until I see a ward study on markers of healthy people on a real foods plants only vs. real foods animals and plants, I'm going to side with my mitochondria and let them burn fat,

Ornish, Esselstyn and Pritikin studies were done on real living people. Ornish noted that when people changed from a high-fat/low-carb diet to a low-fat/high-carb diet, over 500 genes had been changed and that the telomere length was actually increased! The same diet that cures heart-disease will also cure diabetes and reduce the risk of cancers.

The mitochondria in the cells prefer glucose as a fuel source, not fatty-acids. Fat inside the cells (which is technically called intramyocellular-lipids) is the cause of insulin-resistance at the cellular level [1-3]. When fat is inside the cell, it literally blocks insulin-signaling. Also oxidizing-fat, which is essential for weight-loss, actually causes high concentrations of lipid-peroxides (free-radicals). The body doesn't like to burn fat, burning fat is what diabetics do. The body would rather burn glucose and keep fat stored away in the adipose-tissue, where it is unable to generate free-redicals or induce insulin-resistance.

Diabetics or people who are insulin-resistant, are chronically undergoing lipolysis and burning intramyocelluar-lipids (fat) for energy (instead of glucose, which remains circulating in the blood), while this is good for weight-loss, it temporarily causes insulin-resistance and has other damaging effects. The pharmaceutical-drug Acipimox, which inhibits lipolysis and reduces the amount of fat that goes into the cells, is well known to promote insulin-sensitivity.

Diabetologia. 1999 Jan;42(1):113-6. Intramyocellular lipid concentrations are correlated with insulin sensitivity in humans: a 1H NMR spectroscopy study. Krssak M, Falk Petersen K, Dresner A.

Diabetes. 1999 May;48(5):1113-9. Association of increased intramyocellular lipid content with insulin resistance in lean nondiabetic offspring of type 2 diabetic subjects. Jacob S, Machann J, Rett K.

Am J Med. 2006 May;119(5 Suppl 1):S10-6. Etiology of insulin resistance. Petersen KF, Shulman GI.

"Real living people" who were trying to reverse disease and eating a standard American diet of non-foods.

I agree that better is certainly better, but better does not mean optimal.

I'm not trying to argue with you, and I can see you are heavily vested and knowledgeable on vegetarianism/veganism. It appears you really want to help people improve their health.

However, burning fat via beta oxidation produces less ROS at the mitochondria than glycolysis. That to me is all that matters when considering what you might ingest in your environment.



What is the evolutionary advantage to having fat as our endogenous fuel source if we would live longer on carbohydrate?

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/pmc1865572/


Also, potatoes alone can cause a similar effect to ketosis, and are a complete protein, but lack some micronutrients. I'm not against vegetables only, but there are much more calorie and nutrient dense options.

Edited by eddielang, 17 April 2013 - 12:40 AM.

[Chupo]

However, burning fat via beta oxidation produces less ROS at the mitochondria than glycolysis. That to me is all that matters when considering what you might ingest in your environment.

This! I think genetics may have a lot to do with it too. When I first went on a ketogenic diet, I felt awesome (many don't), clearer thinking etc.. so I stuck with it. After the fact, and more recently, I found out that I have MTHFR deficiency, which can impact glutathione levels. I also have lower mitochondrial SOD production. When I started C60 olive oil - a SOD mimetic, I didn't feel an effect. I had already been ketotic. I've also started taking NAC methylfolate and sylmarin. I honestly don't feel any different taking them either. I still do take them though.According to my genetic profile, I am also much less likely to experience a placebo response. So, that gives me a little more confidence that what I experience with diet and supplements is true and not just in my mind.

[misterE]

Ketosis puts you body in a unhealthy metabolic state. Ketosis promotes free-radical formation, lowers your cellular antioxidants and damages the circulatory system [1-3]!


[1] Free Radic Biol Med. 1998 Dec;25(9):1083-8. Ketosis (acetoacetate) can generate oxygen radicals and cause increased lipid peroxidation and growth inhibition in human endothelial cells. Jain SK, Kannan K, Lim G.



[2] Diabetes. 1999 Sep;48(9):1850-5. Hyperketonemia can increase lipid peroxidation and lower glutathione levels in human erythrocytes in vitro and in type 1 diabetic patients. Jain SK, McVie R.




[3] Diabetes Care. 1999 Jul;22(7):1171-5. Effect of hyperketonemia on plasma lipid peroxidation levels in diabetic patients. Jain SK, McVie R, Jackson R.

Edited by misterE, 18 April 2013 - 11:15 PM.

[eddielang]

Ketosis puts you body in a unhealthy metabolic state. Ketosis promotes free-radical formation, lowers your cellular antioxidants and damages the circulatory system [1-3]!


[1] Free Radic Biol Med. 1998 Dec;25(9):1083-8. Ketosis (acetoacetate) can generate oxygen radicals and cause increased lipid peroxidation and growth inhibition in human endothelial cells. Jain SK, Kannan K, Lim G.



[2] Diabetes. 1999 Sep;48(9):1850-5. Hyperketonemia can increase lipid peroxidation and lower glutathione levels in human erythrocytes in vitro and in type 1 diabetic patients. Jain SK, McVie R.




[3] Diabetes Care. 1999 Jul;22(7):1171-5. Effect of hyperketonemia on plasma lipid peroxidation levels in diabetic patients. Jain SK, McVie R, Jackson R.

I'd love to read the first study, do you have a link? Would really like to know the study's parameters and how the ROS they listed as a result of ketosis compares with glycolysis calorie for calorie.

The other two are clearly performed on broken metabolisms, so aren't relevant on the surface.

[Chupo]

Ketosis puts you body in a unhealthy metabolic state. Ketosis promotes free-radical formation, lowers your cellular antioxidants and damages the circulatory system [1-3]!


[1] Free Radic Biol Med. 1998 Dec;25(9):1083-8. Ketosis (acetoacetate) can generate oxygen radicals and cause increased lipid peroxidation and growth inhibition in human endothelial cells. Jain SK, Kannan K, Lim G.



[2] Diabetes. 1999 Sep;48(9):1850-5. Hyperketonemia can increase lipid peroxidation and lower glutathione levels in human erythrocytes in vitro and in type 1 diabetic patients. Jain SK, McVie R.




[3] Diabetes Care. 1999 Jul;22(7):1171-5. Effect of hyperketonemia on plasma lipid peroxidation levels in diabetic patients. Jain SK, McVie R, Jackson R.

xEva and I replied to this same post in another thread: http://www.longecity...pen-discussion/

[timar]

misterE, why do you bump a topic that has been dead for two years?

 

Ah, let me guess: to force your ideas of a starch-based diet down our throats as blatantly as possible?

 

Besides, it doesn't strike me as particularly noteworthy that most plant foods are mostly carbs by calories. That's a trivial observation, really.

 

And while I'm at it: could you please stop to misuse the Wilcox' work on the traditional Okinawan Diet for promoting a McDougall diet? While it certainly was (it basically is a reconstruction as it doesn't exist anymore in this pure form) a low-fat, high-carb dietary pattern, Wilcox' et al. never made the claim that the observed health benefits were predominantly due to its macronutrient ratio or the ratio of plant vs. animal foods. Quite the contrary, they leave no doubt that they actually consider the similarities to the high-fat Mediterranean diet far more important than the differences:

 

Despite the large increase in fat intake in Okinawa in recent

decades, fat intake in the modern Okinawan diet is comparable

to that of the DASH diet (at approximately 27% of total daily

energy intake) and lower in fat than the traditional Mediterra-

nean diet (42%). Saturated fat still only totals about 7% of total

energy intake (versus 6% in DASH and 9% in Mediterranean).

Carbohydrate intake (58%) of total calories remains highest

(versus 55% for DASH and 42% for Mediterranean) and

protein intake falls between the lower Mediterranean (13%)

intake and the higher DASH (18%) intake.

Overall, the shared features of the aforementioned dietary

patterns far outnumber their differences and include high

intake of unrefined carbohydrates (mostly vegetables), mod-

erate to high intake of legumes, emphasis on lean meats and

fish, and a healthy fat profile (higher in omega-3 and

monounsaturated fats and lower in saturated fat). This is

thought to have contributed to low rates of CVD, a decreased

risk of certain cancers, and a decreased risk of diabetes and

other chronic diseases [1,29,37,38].

(From the paper you referenced).

Edited by timar, 18 February 2015 - 06:10 PM.