16 replies to this topic

[johnmk]

I read somewhere (I don't recall where) that you should not take ALCAR and ALA at the same moment in time, rather give at least 20-30 minutes of separation. Is there truth to this? In general, is it necessary to take either ALCAR or ALA on an empty stomach? How much is lost by taking ALCAR or ALA on a non-empty stomach?

Thank you,

-John

[wannafulfill]

I am sorry I can't answer your questions, but I personally take them at the same time on an empty stomach.

...but I think you can take ALCAR on a full stomach, I have and noticed the same effects.

[stellar]

John, I think a lot of people take them at the same time. According to Brooklynjuice, Idebenone and ALCAR can be taken instead of ALA. I hope he's right, because I might start doing that soon.

[enemy]

Based on a personal experience, when K-R-ALA and ALCAR hook up, the result is a polymerized mess, probably indigestible.

Note: This last conjecture ("probably indigestible") is not experimentally tested.

[johnmk]

I suppose you could ameliorate that effect by ingesting one immediately prior to your meal, and the other immediately after. Not a huge impact but probably statistically significant.

[charisma]

I'm kind of confused on which items in my stack to take on an empty stomach and which ones to take with food. I'm trying different combinations and there are definitely different results. The trial and error feels like a waste though.

[enemy]

You don't want to eat protein (i.e. a balanced meal) and take amino acid supplements (L-tyrosine, L-theanine, citrulline malate for all you weightlifters, etc.) in the same general timeframe because they will fight for absorption.

[wannafulfill]

John, I think a lot of people take them at the same time. According to Brooklynjuice, Idebenone and ALCAR can be taken instead of ALA. I hope he's right, because I might start doing that soon.

I for one wouldn't do that. Both Idebenone and ALCAR upregulate mitochondria iirc. ALA might go far in alleviating some of the oxidative stress that results imho.

[velocidex]

Actually this explains something rather strange I encountered recently.

I had a bottle with 4g of ALCAR dissolved in it, and added k-rala. This highly insoluble gunk appeared inside the bottle, which I couldn't get rid of.

I tried adding krala to water recently and it dissolved fine. I wondered what happened the first time... and for quite some time decided that it (krala) didn't handle water well. But that doesn't make much sense in that its absorbed fine...

[enemy]

I had a bottle with 4g of ALCAR dissolved in it, and added k-rala. This highly insoluble gunk appeared inside the bottle, which I couldn't get rid of.

Its some kind of freebase, I figure. When I add baking soda to the gunk, it became soluble again. I haven't tried adding an acid (lemon juice, etc.) so I can't say this for certain.

[jeromewilson]

Anyone know of any problem with taking K-RALA before bed?

[LifeMirage]

KRALA can be taken anytime, although best in the morning if possible.

[brooklynjuice]

John, I think a lot of people take them at the same time. According to Brooklynjuice, Idebenone and ALCAR can be taken instead of ALA. I hope he's right, because I might start doing that soon.

I for one wouldn't do that. Both Idebenone and ALCAR upregulate mitochondria iirc. ALA might go far in alleviating some of the oxidative stress that results imho.

I think Ideb has significant anti-ox at the mito from research Ive read. I wouldnt suggest totally dropping ALA but significantly dropping amount taken daily. If you're still worried NAC is also another option

[wannafulfill]

AORSupport got into this issue a while back. There is enough information to call into question the use of idebenone, even if there is no definitive answer.


1: Exp Biol Med (Maywood). 2003 May;228(5):506-13. Related Articles, Links


Mitochondrial production of oxygen radical species and the role of Coenzyme Q as an antioxidant.

Genova ML, Pich MM, Biondi A, Bernacchia A, Falasca A, Bovina C, Formiggini G, Parenti Castelli G, Lenaz G.

Dipartimento di Biochimica "G Moruzzi", University of Bologna, 40126 Bologna, Italy.

The mitochondrial respiratory chain is a powerful source of reactive oxygen species (ROS), which is considered as the pathogenic agent of many diseases and of aging. We have investigated the role of complex I in superoxide radical production and found by the combined use of specific inhibitors of complex I that the one-electron donor to oxygen in the complex is a redox center located prior to the sites where three different types of Coenzyme Q (CoQ) competitors bind, to be identified with an Fe-S cluster, most probably N2, or possibly an ubisemiquinone intermediate insensitive to all the above inhibitors. Short-chain Coenzyme Q analogs enhance superoxide formation, presumably by mediating electron transfer from N2 to oxygen. The clinically used CoQ analog, idebenone, is particularly effective, raising doubts on its safety as a drug. Cells counteract oxidative stress by antioxidants. CoQ is the only lipophilic antioxidant to be biosynthesized. Exogenous CoQ, however, protects cells from oxidative stress by conversion into its reduced antioxidant form by cellular reductases. The plasma membrane oxidoreductase and DT-diaphorase are two such systems, likewise, they are overexpressed under oxidative stress conditions.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 12709577 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


FEBS Lett. 2001 Sep 21;505(3):364-8. Related Articles, Links


The site of production of superoxide radical in mitochondrial Complex I is not a bound ubisemiquinone but presumably iron-sulfur cluster N2.

Genova ML, Ventura B, Giuliano G, Bovina C, Formiggini G, Parenti Castelli G, Lenaz G.

Dipartimento di Biochimica 'G. Moruzzi', Universita di Bologna, Via Irnerio 48, 40126, Bologna, Italy.

The mitochondrial respiratory chain is a powerful source of reactive oxygen species, considered as the pathogenic agent of many diseases and of aging. We have investigated the role of Complex I in superoxide radical production in bovine heart submitochondrial particles and found, by combined use of specific inhibitors of Complex I and by Coenzyme Q (CoQ) extraction from the particles, that the one-electron donor in the Complex to oxygen is a redox center located prior to the binding sites of three different types of CoQ antagonists, to be identified with a Fe-S cluster, most probably N2 on the basis of several known properties of this cluster. Short chain CoQ analogs enhance superoxide formation, presumably by mediating electron transfer from N2 to oxygen. The clinically used CoQ analog, idebenone, is particularly effective in promoting superoxide formation.

PMID: 11576529 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[scottl]

I too would like to read a detailed answer to this issue of idebenone.

Edited by scottl, 25 May 2005 - 06:47 PM.

[psychenaut]

Wannafufill and Enemy are on track. Prudent and well though out questions and responses.

I just had to jump in here and ask why, if you are keeping up with the latest breakthroughs, would anybody would want to take ALA? It is a fact that half of it cannot (at best) benefit the body because it is chirally unable to bind to a receptor, and (at worst) may actually cause problems/damage due to same.

Chirality is a fact, to ignore its effect on bioavailability is to delude oneself. Personally, I wouldn't take ALA if it were given to me.

The other issue, about the gooey mess, is likely your first hand experience with polymerization. R+ powders, and some liquid forms do this easily. Once polyermerized, it is useless. Or worse, because this "rubber" is indigestible and totally lacks bioavailability, it could build up in the body. Who needs that?

The only R+ or R-Dihydro I would consider taking as of today is GeroNova stabilized liquid (awesome for pre-work out in your drink bottle) or RALA-Gel and Mito-GOLD. Studies will be published in a peer reviewed journal later this year documenting actual plasma levels of R+.

Nothing else matters except measurable blood plasma levels.

The interesting thing is, you can use stabilized R+ from Relentless for equal to or less than whatever you are buying now, and actually have it get into your bloodstream! FUTHERMORE- the MCT transport in RALA-Gel and Mito-GOLD result in SUSTAINED plasma levels over ~6-8 hours. Any other R+ (that manages to get into the blood) peaks out and drops out after ~1.5-2 hours. Figure that into your cost/benefit equation.

Here is a challenge to the readers of this thread. Buy Mito-Gold. Try it as directed (empty stomach). You don't feel a difference, return the unused portion (more than half the bottle left- please) for a refund. You don't get S&H reimbursed, and I don't pay for you to it return to me, otherwise that is the offer. Oh and reply to your order confirmation telling me that you plan to take me up on this, I reserve the right to discontinue the offer at any time.

Suggestion- work a tough, long day. Pop a Mito-GOLD at 7 or 8 PM. Watch what happens. Or- pick your favorite hiking trail, run, or work-out session. Pop a Mito-GOLD 15 minutes before you begin the activity. Let me know what happens.

I have seven Articles posted, do yourself a favor and read-up.

In my opinion, based on the science as I understand it, these products are the state of the art. I can take take any product I like, from any supplier. In fact AOR is not happy with my public comments, as I also offer their R+. I chose to discontinue LEF R-DiHydro after I sold out of it last week (that was GeroNova supplied BTW, a different formula). So I am not here to pitch my wares.

I sell it because efficacy and bioavailability dictate that I do. Ok, off my soapbox and I am sure the hornets nest is stirred. Lot of entrenched financial interest in seeing ALA get sold. A lot of inventory sitting on shelves. Keep that in mind as people post replies )

Oh- Here is more grist for the mill.

Best,
Pete

Edited by psychenaut, 26 May 2005 - 02:33 AM.