15 replies to this topic

[drmz]

Today i decide that i'm going to stop with my regime/stack. I felt terrible last 3-4 weeks and i start to feel for the first time this week. I described my problems with my stack in different topics on immins and avantlabs. Today i wanted to start again and i premixed my stack into two small bottles which i could drink on work. I decided not to drink them, just because i'm afraid i get the same negative side effects as before.


The first two months on my stack were quite ok, no problems at all, humour went up, social skills went up, but after that the side effects became to apparent to ignore. I just felt sick and stupid. I tried to figure out what was causing it, but i wasn't able to find it. Despite of some good advice from lifemirage. Even without choline supplementation if felt abnormal and just sick .

Maybe i'm going to give it another try in the future. I wanted it to work and to tune my stack, too bad i have come to the point that the fear of feeling the same again is just too big.

[jeromewilson]

I'm sorry to hear that drmz :(. Can I ask what your stack is at the moment? Maybe it's worth going back to basics and trying one or two things at a time, rather than a stack...

[cesium]

I agree with jeromewilson, start over again with one supplement at a time until you see how you respond to them and thereby eliminate whichever one may be causing problems for you. I've known several people who had a tendency to be sensitive to certain medications who were unable to take ALCAR even at very modest doses of 300-500mg because it would affect them adversely. It could just be one or two items in your stack that is giving you problems.

[charisma]

I had a problem with something in mine too. It seems that the DMAE powder was causing a headache for some reason, but if I take the tablets I got from GNC I'm fine.

I too think I would start with one thing and go back on it. The benefits are too high I think not too. But do what you think is in your best interests.

[drmz]

This was my initial stack. Later modified with Vitamine E and Q10 . I left Ginko, Huperzine & Vinpocetine out after 3-4 weeks. I cycled on the creatine for 4 weeks and i didn't take any lecithin. After 6-8 weeks i lowered the ALCAR and Alpha-gpc. In the last weeks i didn't use any ALCAR or ALPHA-GPC . There was one week that i only used ALCAR and one week that i only used Piracetam and Aniracetam. I added aniracetam at the end in a dosage ranging from 150-300 mg a day. At that time i was already feeling sick.

Yesterday i felt fine again, but today after eating 4 eggs in the morning i felt the same sickness again around 12:00 - 13:00, feeling dizzy in the morning. Only the eggs were different in my morning breakfast from yesterday.

Now i'm taking only :

Vit E 200mg
Vit C 1000 MG
Fish Oil 750-1.6 gr EPA
90 MG Q10
Strong Vit B complex.

All in the morning...Vit B complex 3 hours after the rest

9:00

ALCAR 500 mg
R-ALA 200 MG
Omega 3-6-9 1000 MG ( EPA=35% DHA= 25% )


10:00

Alpha GPC--500 mg daily w/breakfast ( sometimes Lecithin instead of ALPHA-GPC )
Bacopa-standardized to 20% bacosides500 mg
Piracetam 1 gram
Creatine-5 grams

10:00-12:00

Omega 3-6-9 1000 MG ( EPA=35% DHA= 25% )
Vitamine C 1000 MG
Multivitamin Strong 1 tab

13:00

Theanine--200 mg
Bacopa Monieri 500 mg
Piracetam 1 gram
ALCAR 500 MG
R-ALA 200 MG
Vinpocetine 5 MG
Huperzine 25 MCG
Gingko 60 MG

15:00

Vitamin C 1000 MG

17:00

ALCAR 500 MG
R-ALA 200 MG
Omega 3-6-9 1000 MG ( EPA=35% DHA= 25% )

[jeromewilson]

I'm about as far from being an expert as you can get but your stack looks fine to me. Maybe the omegas were a bit high and you were taking ALCAR and R-ALA simultaneously (see recent thread titled 'ALCAR and K-R-ALA') but those shouldn't be a real issue, I don't think.

It's interesting about the eggs... are you getting any allergic symptoms - itching / runny nose? It's just that eggs contain a fair bit of choline so maybe you've got a smidgeon of acetylcholine hypersensitivity. Erm, but then I'm a web programmer so I wouldn't listen to me Is there a doctor in the house?

Anyway, I hope you're feeling OK now.

[drmz]

i only took the R-ALA for one months . Lifemirage mentioned an acetylcholine hypersensitivity. What would be a normal time path to get back to base acetylcholine sensitivity ?
I felt the same dizziness/sickness when only taking piracetam/aniracetam so i didn't blame the sickness all to the alcar or alpha-gpc.

I'm feeling better now. Not 100% , but really alot better then the last 4 weeks.

ANybody got some readings about acetylcholine hypersensitivity..can't really find alot on this subject.

[jeromewilson]

Sorry, I'm afraid I can't find anything useful on acetylcholine hypersensitivity either, anyone else know anything more about it...?

Out of interest I did have a quick look for safe antimuscarinics but I came up with stuff like atropine and scopolamine, and they're definitely not safe!

I'm sure you'll return to normal over time, steering clear of many of the substances discussed in this forum :( Possibly also watch out for high choline foodstuffs (egg, milk, soya) and cut back on your B12 (it's involved in the synthesis of acetylcholine).

Glad you're feeling better than you were, you're obviously on the mend.

[jpars82]

i only took the R-ALA for one months . Lifemirage mentioned an acetylcholine hypersensitivity. What would be a normal time path to get back to base acetylcholine sensitivity ?
I felt the same dizziness/sickness when only taking piracetam/aniracetam so i didn't blame the sickness all to the alcar or alpha-gpc.

That's what I was thinking. Perhaps too much acetylcholine. Serotonin can also add to the problem if you're taking 5HTP or certain anti-depressants. I'm not sure how it all works exactly, but cholinergic and serotonergic receptors are also found in the GI tract. Anyways, anti-cholinergics that block these receptors help to relieve the nausea, dizziness, stiffness, etc. The problem is they act elsewhere in the body and cause unwanted side effects such as memory problems and/or confusion. There's also (serotonin)5HT3 receptor antagonists available that are used for nausea, vomiting, post-operative surgery, etc., that do not cause cognitive problems... though they are expensive... granisetron, rolisetron, ondansetron, etc. Do you get a lot of nausea with the dizziness, or stiffness in your neck? I have to be careful with what I take myself, for I'm prone to getting nausea and other symptoms. I've taken various supps/drugs that act on choline in the past such as galantamine, huperzine, dmae, centro, alpha gpc, cdp-choline, etc. I now only take a once a day low dose of alpha-gpc or cdp-choline. My advice would be to try dropping the huperzine, it might not be necessary for you. Also, try cutting your alpha-gpc dose in half. See how that works for a week. Anyways, hope that helps, good luck!

Josh

[eternaltraveler]

i had a similar problem with my regimen about a year ago.

I stopped it entirely and only recently have I started taking anything other than a multi-vitamin/mineral.

I think the key here is to do just as suggested. One substance at a time, figure out the optimum dose for that before moving on.

[drmz]

I have no nausea at all...nor do i have a stiff neck. No headaches at all ( just one day in my regime ) . So that's why i doubt if it has anything to do with too much choline.
Felt very dizzy again today for 3-4 hours, the feeling went away in the afternoon. Think i might need to make a new appointment with my docter...I don't know how long the side effects from such a stack will stay with me, but i figured out that 2-3 weeks would be enough to come back to base level again.

grmz !

[scottl]

Drmz,

I would definitely make an apt with a really good internist and make sure nothing else is going on.

[jonathan2111]

FYI I tried adrafinil once. The effect built up nicely as it was supposed to over a period of a couple of weeks but then I discovered that serious exertion would bring on a really evil, thumping headache.

Stopped the adrafinil and no more such headaches.

Very occasionally I take modafinil 100 mg only to manage a long, arduous day. That does not produce such effects.

Anyone else had similar probs?

Jonathan

[drmz]

Drmz,

I would definitely make an apt with a really good internist and make sure nothing else is going on.

Yeah i really need to make an appointement soon. But i'm almost certain that it's related to my stack. Today and yesterday i only took bacopa, theanine, aniracetam, fish oil and B vitamines ( and some CAL-MAG-ZINC ) . I'm totally wacked at the moment again. Bad vision, dizzy ..etc etc :( The aniracetam total is about 600 mg this day.

If i would do the same with piracetam only or with alcar only, i would feel the same like now. It's nothing psychologic. i'm sure of that . Feels like somebody closes the door to the mind....

[wannafulfill]

man, just stop taking everything except a multi-vitamin for a long time

also, make an appointment now

[eternaltraveler]

Yes, Just stop. You can put it slowly back together at some point in the future.