3 replies to this topic

[RobDaBomb121]

Hello everybody, I just joined the forum recently after purchasing my first nootropic the other day (Piracetam). You can go read my introduction post if you'd like!

But anyway, as I'm waiting for my Piracetam to show up in the mail (100g's in powdered forum) I thought I'd ask some questions that I had. Sure I have read a LOTTT on these forums and have had some of these questions answered already, but I noticed that the answers vary a lot and I'm EXTREMELY busy now and will be for the next month or so at least and just haven't had the time to get an organized list for all my question's answers.

So anyway I ended up going with Piracetam because it seems to be one of the more common and good beginner racetams. And I'm looking for something that will really help with my creativity, associations, imagination, focus, motivation, ability to create associations, and talking and social skills. Although, I am a little concerned because I have terrible anxiety and stress disorders, and I have read that sometimes Piracetam makes these conditions worse for people, while Aniracetam is better for them because it seems to have some sort of anxiety and stress relief/relaxing attributes. Yet I've also read many posts where people swear by Piracetam for all my needs.

So here are my questions:

-What's a good starter dose and how many times per day should I take it (remember this is the powdered forum of just Piracetam from C.H.com)?
-Is it better to take it just 'as needed' or on a normal and daily basis?

-Is it bad to take more than X amount per day or within a specific amount of time?

-How long until it begins to work? Like say I had a test starting at 11am- I would want it to not just be starting to feel noticeable by then, but already working strong.
--Speaking of, is it a 'noticeable' feeling when its working?

-How long does Piracetam generally seem to last? Is there a 'comedown' feeling after it starts wearing off?
--Like 'drugs' is there normally a 'peak' feeling? Or a come-up and such?

-If you go days without using Piracetam, is it stronger the next time you do it? Is there any tolerance over time?
--Is it also better on an empty stomach, normal, or full stomach? I.e. with or without food as well.

-CHOLINE! I hear a lot about Choline. There are many different kinds of it and different mgs. Is it needed? Highly beneficial? Or is it better to just start Piracetam on its own for a while first? And if I do use Choline, then how many times a day and when should I take it- with the Piracetam or before, after, in the morning, at night, etc...?

-Are there any risky things to be 'on the look out for' so I don't accidentally create a bad/dangerous combination? I.e. SSRI's, grapefruits, supplements, etc...
--Specifically muscle milk, magnesium supplements, fish oil, melatonin, ambien, gingko biloba, Klonopin (an anxiety med (benzo))? -I take these things almost regularly

I also suffer from bad insomnia, is there going to be complications I should be aware of?


Thank you guys soooo much for all your help! And I'm extremely sorry for all the questions, but I've been extremely busy lately. I currently am focusing on transferring to an arts school in Chicago so I've been dealing with my world being flipped upside down lately preparing for all this and other school-work, normal job-work, financial-work, and having to focus on moving and such. So I don't have much time to read a lot, I mean... I did read a lot- but its hard to get straight forward answers. I know these nootropics vary with everyone, but I'd like at least some sort of suggestions/peace of mind before this arrives in the mail and I just dive right into the deep end without testing the waters first. Plus, soon I will be non stop busy all day and won't be able to afford having any 'dysfunctional experiences/mind foggy-ness/difficulties' and such (or basically the things I'm dealing with on my own already).

Thanks again guys! And if you would like to check out my 'Greetings!' introduction forum then that would be great too. Have a great day everyone.

[mrd1]

-What's a good starter dose and how many times per day should I take it (remember this is the powdered forum of just Piracetam from C.H.com)? Id take 100mg to make sure you don't have some wacky allergic reaction than after a hour or 2 1500mg/day divided in two or three doses
-Is it better to take it just 'as needed' or on a normal and daily basis? I personally take it on a daily basis that is what the research says and it snowballs gets better over time and no tolerance after 12 weeks. Though, some people "swear" they get tolerance.

-Is it bad to take more than X amount per day or within a specific amount of time? Piracetam is very safe and even doses up to 24,000mg have been used in the clinical setting. So id say over 8000mg you may get side effects like mild agitation, anxiety, brain fog. Everything you would expect from a over activated glutamate system. I personally found 24,000mg a day to do wonder for me with no ill effects other than maybe slight agitation, slight headache (that went away after my receptors adapted)

-How long until it begins to work? Like say I had a test starting at 11am- I would want it to not just be starting to feel noticeable by then, but already working strong.
--Speaking of, is it a 'noticeable' feeling when its working? No it is not really noticable to the naked eye. You may not be able to easily feel a difference. But, if you took tests to measure your abilities on various tests there would be marked improvement. And, this is also why I am a skeptic of people claiming tolerance to something you may struggle to notice at all!

-How long does Piracetam generally seem to last? Is there a 'comedown' feeling after it starts wearing off?
--Like 'drugs' is there normally a 'peak' feeling? Or a come-up and such? Piracetam has a half life of 4-5 so I personally take it 3x a day. I personally only notice a comedown with the equivilant of about 50,000mg of piracetam in one dose (by noopept, aniracetam, dm - 235, and piracetam) with 30mg of amphetamine. It does have a peak plasma level but I doubt youd be able to tell.


-If you go days without using Piracetam, is it stronger the next time you do it? Is there any tolerance over time?
--Is it also better on an empty stomach, normal, or full stomach? I.e. with or without food as well. The placebo is stronger. haha It may actually be lless effective because it gets stronger with time. Studies over 12 weeks with chronic doses have not shown tolerance and even showed a enhancement over time. I don't think you should worry about with or without food right now since most people struggle to take their suppplements at all for extended periods of time

-CHOLINE! I hear a lot about Choline. There are many different kinds of it and different mgs. Is it needed? Highly beneficial? Or is it better to just start Piracetam on its own for a while first? And if I do use Choline, then how many times a day and when should I take it- with the Piracetam or before, after, in the morning, at night, etc...? Choline may make it more effective. Although, this is disputed as well as the claim that it helps headaches. I tried piracetam with aniracetam alone and got headaches so I added cdp choline and alpha gpc. I find 300-900mg total works depending on your dose.

-Are there any risky things to be 'on the look out for' so I don't accidentally create a bad/dangerous combination? I.e. SSRI's, grapefruits, supplements, etc...
--Specifically muscle milk, magnesium supplements, fish oil, melatonin, ambien, gingko biloba, Klonopin (an anxiety med (benzo))? -I take these things almost regularly
It may make alcohol and amphetamines more powerful. And therefore, maybe klonopin or ambien but who knows. I take amphetamine with mine and it just makes my amphetamine way more effective. So just make your doctor aware.
I also suffer from bad insomnia, is there going to be complications I should be aware of? If you experiance anxiety or nervousness that may keep you awake although I take 8g often like 3hours before sleep. I find it sleep better, need less sleep, and feel more refreshed. Although, I am taking many supplements.

[RobDaBomb121]

Thank you so much mrd!! I feel a lot more comfortable already and I haven't even received the Piracetam yet. You answered everything perfectly and with insight. Only thing I wasn't sure about is when would you suggest taking Choline if I decide to add it to my routine? At the same time as taking the Piracetam, or instead just in the morning each day.

Thanks again.

[mrd1]

Sorry for the delay, I got distracted!

I feel I can best answer your question by dividing it into specific parts as follows:

1.) Should you add choline to your routine?

With the approval of a doctor,
WARNING OPINION: Evidence suggests one could experience mild to moderate positive benefit from the addition of choline even in it appears otherwise healthy individuals. However, many of the benefits take time to work and/or may be hard to discern if it is "doing anything". However, I would argue that since most of what is going on happens below are conscious awareness just because it may be hard to *feel* doesn't make it worthless. I mean you feel coffee. That doesn't make it necessarily superior to other possible cognitive enhancers you can not feel. There is a world beyond are sense of taste touch smell and feelings. However, that is too radical for people to accept! haha kinda freak if you ask me.

1A.) If yes, than what type of choline (s) should you add to your routine?
You have three options here

Choline in the basic form (usually choline bitartate) Here is what you should know
-Choline bitartrate is 26% choline by weight (examine.com)

Pros
-simplest and cheapest (examine)
-much more cheap way of increasing systemic -meaning bodily- (not neural) choline concentrations and benefiting the liver (examine)
Negs
-does not increase neural (brain) concentrations of choline reliably (examine)

WARNING OPINION: Atless you are really tight on money I would advise investing in your brain and choosing from a source of choline that can increase neural concentrations reliably.

CDP-choline is a choline and uridine prodrug. -A prodrug simply means a drug that is inactive until processed by the body E.x. Vyvanse (lisdexamphetamine) is a product for the amphetamine dexamphetamine ) It is 18.5% choline by weight.

Pros
-increases neural concentrations to a greater degree than choline itself -examine-
-uridine is a second supplement cdp choline offers which also has cognitive benefits of its own -examine-
-subchronic doses seem to upregulate dopamine transporters - Effects of CDP-choline on striatal dopamine level and behavior in rats.-
-enhanced dopamine rekease from a stimulated neuron - Changes in brain striatum dopamine and acetylcholine receptors induced by chronic CDP-choline treatment of aging mice.-
-shows neuroprotective efffects when applied to neurons that secrete dopamine-examine-
-it has some potential as a nootropic and memory enhancer but not 100% reliable-examine- (WARNING OPINION): so I would not rely on choline sources as your sole source of cognitive enhancement
-one study showed improved attention (examine)
-it may increase the release and transporters of acetylcholine probably due to both components.
Negatives
-In my personally experiance I found this to be the most expensive of your options. I think I pay like $0.75 a gram for this stuff!
-while some double blind human studys are present however it still lacks robust research conducted with repeated double blind clinical trials (examine)

WARNING OPINION: if you got big pockets this isn't a bad choice, IMO.

alpha gpc - is 40% choline by weight and a prodrug for both choline and glycerophosophate.

Pro-
-has a very high choline on a weight basis -examine-
-very readily absorbed and delivered to the brain -examine-
-limited evidence suggests it may be dopaminergetic by both increasing dopamine release during neuronal action potentials and possibly by stimulating the expression of receptors -examine-
-it has been noted that alpha-gpc (150mg/kg) is able to increase seritonin concentrations in the frontal cortex and cerebellum of rats following ingestion which was not seen with cdp-choline -5-
-can possibly increase acetylcholine levels (may be localized to the frontal cortex -part of the brain involved in high order thinking-) more reliable in preserving acetylcholine concentrations during stressors and implicated in increasing expression of the vesicular acetylcholine transporter (so basically again we see this increase in the acetylcholine transporter) -examine-
-appears to increase gaba secondary to acting through alpha-1 adrenergic recptors although it is not sure why. -examine-
Protein Kinase C (PKC) is a intracellular intermediate that appears to be associated with memory formation when activated and administration of alpha gpc in rats has been noted to promote PKC translocation in the rat cortex at an oral dose of 600mg/kg -42,45-
-evidence for cognitive enhancement in otherwise healthy rats

Neg
-more expensive than choline bitrartate
-more clumpy than cdp choline which is very fluffy
-lacks the uridine which may be of benefit


In my personally high school student non medical opinion, I would take alpha gpc first than consider adding CDP choline at a later time.
2.) Does choline stack with piracetam?
Pro stacking
-Racetam compounds are typically supplemented alongside Cholinergic compounds as their mechanisms are highly interrelated.[86]
-Administration of Piracetam causes a decrease in acetylcholine levels in the hippocampus[Piracetam diminishes hippocampal acetylcholine levels in rats.]
-In a few animal models, choline supplementation has been noted to increase the memory and cognitive effects of Piracetam when coingested. - Effect of piracetam plus choline treatment on hippocampal rhythmic slow activity (RSA) and behavior in rabbits. Life -

Cons stacking
-it may help increase piracetamins effectiveness in otherwise healthy animals but this combo has not been tested in humans. (examine)

Based on this, I personally would taking a choline source with my piracetam. However, more conservative people may not.
3) How should you take Choline?
For the usage of alpha-GPC in attenuating symptoms of cognitive decline, almost all studies use a dosage of 1,200 mg daily, divided into three doses of 400 mg. It is unsure how lower doses would benefit cognition, but the 1,200 mg appears to be consistently associated with benefit. (examine)

Standard dosing of CDP-choline is to take 500-2,000 mg in two divided doses (of 250-1,000 mg) usually separated by 8-12 hours, although a single daily dose is also sometimes used. A single dose of 4,000 mg does not appear to affect the blood any differently than 2,000 mg, and so it is not necessary to take such a high dose. (examine)

For mechanisms through acetylcholine, the choline should be pulsed in high doses acutely as higher doses are partitioned to the brain to a greater extent. 1-2g is typically used.

Doses should be titrated to suit the individual, as too high of a dose at any given time may give the user a headache. It is suggested that doses start out at 50-100mg daily and that users adjust upwards in accordance with their tolerance.