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Chat for Jan 5th, 2003


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#1 Bruce Klein

  • Guardian Founder
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  • Location:United States

Posted 06 January 2003 - 05:51 AM


<BJKlein> Thanks for joining us...
<BJKlein> Official Chat Begins Now:
<BJKlein> Topic: Culture or Counter-Culture: Rituals in Transhumanism
* Gordon dances around the fire
<BJKlein> Caliban was kind enough to offer the suggestion of this topic
* BJKlein warms his knarled fingers to the blaze
<BJKlein> "Fitting for the season: Is Transhumanism a culture on its own? Chritianity was sucessfull by taking the old festive occasions and twisting them for its own purposes. Should Transhumanism attempt to do simmilar things eg. by celebrating certain occasions, having a ritual greeting, a common song etc. ?"
<BJKlein> Most people would probably frown at the idea that Transhumanism applies the very bonds of a culture that it opposes. But would it not serve bonding and identity-building of members and the movement as a whole if it allowed and encouraged the solace of common rituals and culture?
<BJKlein> http://www.transhuma...zara0201a.shtml
<BJKlein> this link may be helpful in bringing some ideas to mind...
<BJKlein> Ok.. we're open for discussion
<Gordon> well, trying to create a culture is not a good idea; for one thing, it's just an aesthetically pleasing
<Gordon> *not
<BJKlein> So the question tonight.. is Transhumanism on the right path? etc.
<BJKlein> I like to envision where we'll be 10 years from now..
<BJKlein> how will the WTA and Transhumanism develop in that time.
<BJKlein> What will change and how will the movement change over this time.
<Gordon> camping outside Eliezer's house in the volunteer camp (hehehe)
<MRAmes> Gordon: So long as I've got a 3mbps satellite hook-up beside the tent.
* Gordon pokes people to wake up
* BJKlein puts a couple more logs on the blaze
<MRAmes> Toasty!
* BJKlein pulls out the beer
<Gordon> 3 mbps? you should dream harder; we're talking 10 years from now
* Lucifer brings out the marshmallows
<MRAmes> Oh... missed that bit.
<Lucifer> Will the >H movement be alive in 10 years?
<BJKlein> good question.. I believe it will have multi thousand members..
<BJKlein> of course that's just me
<Gordon> well, will you be alive in 10 years?
<Gordon> if the answer is yes, it will still be around, even if you aren't involved
<MRAmes> Won't you allow anyone else to join bj?
<BJKlein> join what?
<Lucifer> I think the Extropians were supposed to have multi thousands of members by now
<BJKlein> they do on the bbs, something like 2 or 3
<MRAmes> IRT: "of course that's just me" :)
<BJKlein> maybe I should have said multi million
<Gordon> SL4 now has multi hundred membership ^_^
<BJKlein> well, WTA has received funding
<Eliezer> has been promised funding
<Lucifer> I think it is safe to say that the growth in membership has been disappointing at best
<Lucifer> Especially paid membership
<BJKlein> yes.. I may have jumped the gun there, Promised as far as I know
<Lucifer> There was tremendous enthusiasm at the first ExI conference in 94 (I was there)
<BJKlein> really Lucifer?
<Lucifer> Many thousands have been exposed to the ideas
<Lucifer> But that hasn't translated into real membership
<BJKlein> maybe transhumanism is doomed to fail because it's membership consist of libertarian minded people?
<Lucifer> Maybe millions have been exposed to the ideas -- there was that article in Wired too
<Gordon> BJ: why do you think they're libertarian minded? Does libertarianism increase belief in Transhumanist ideas, or is it maybe something else?
<BJKlein> people more interested in breaking down organizations than coming together
<Lucifer> I would say that Extropians tend to be libertarian minded, not transhumans (in general)
<PD> Heh
<PD> That makes some sense
<Lucifer> Or put another way, Extropians tend to be the more libertarian minded subset of transhumanism
<Gordon> actually, I suspect it's different
<Gordon> I came to libertarianism because it was the only political movement I could find that wasn't falling on its ass all of the time
<Mermaid> and how are they doing so far?
* BJKlein thinks we need an official Transhuman hand sign and gold pendant and white robe
<Gordon> I came to be a Singularitarian because, well, it seemed to be right to me, so I signed up
<PD> I don't really care for libertarianism that much
<makebelieve> achieve the greatest possible good
<PD> I just want the bipartisan system to die
<PD> That's utilitarianism
<Lucifer> How is it that the Raelians can raise enough money to build the UFOLand theme park, but >H groups worldwide can't hire 2 people full time?
<PD> lol
<BJKlein> good good question Lucifer
<BJKlein> maybe they're better at playing the media?
<Gordon> many libertarians are confused folks, but as a whole they seem to do make fewer mistakes in their ideas than other politically minded people I've known
<PD> Because people go in for that sort of stuff
<Gordon> they still make mistakes, but not nearly as many
<Lucifer> Does it all come down to marketing?
<Mermaid> Lucifer: yes
<BJKlein> Gordon, I'm starting to see that is true about libertarians also.
<ChrisRovner> Hipocrisy rules. Maybe transhumanists are too honest to be successful
<ChrisRovner> Human nature, etc.
<PD> I'm not any more honest than the next guy
<PD> lol
<BJKlein> ChrisRovner has hit the nail on the head.
<Gordon> BJ: well, they're still humans and as insane as the next person, so it's no wonder
<BJKlein> PD, see when you make that statement, you're being honest
<Gordon> or he's lying
<Mermaid> 1.who is your audience. 2. what are your resources. 3.is there a 5-year plan. 4.can you lie?
<makebelieve> we're not going to change
<PD> Nah, I'm a liar. Don't believe anything I say.
<BJKlein> heh.. Mermaid
<Gordon> either way, it's paradoxical :-)
<BJKlein> there you go again PD
<PD> ^^
<PD> Anyone read anything good lately?
<Mermaid> BJ, I am serious
<Mermaid> passion and practicality dont mix.
<Gordon> ahem, step four should not be stated in a public forum
<PD> I have a passion for practicality ;\
<BJKlein> all righty.. at least we're not seeing a decline in numbers..
<BJKlein> I hope?
<ChrisRovner> I am not suggesting we should lie, for pete's sake
<Mermaid> why not?
<Mermaid> lying is ok when thats what people want to hear..
<Mermaid> lying as a betrayal of trust is a different matter
<Gordon> lying (knowably being inaccurate) is immoral, for one thing
<PD> Lying is always a betrayal of trust. Otherwise it wouldn't work.
* Mermaid coughs violently
<Mermaid> immoral?
<Lucifer> Are there any other groups out there that we could use as a model (even if we don't agree with their ideologies)?
<Mermaid> IMMORAL?
<PD> Lucifer, the LDS?
<BJKlein> american atheists come to mind?
<Gordon> can you think of any society where lying is considered acceptable?
<BJKlein> a successful meme spreading group
<PD> Lying is considered acceptable in fewer societies than it is accepted
<BJKlein> they
<Mermaid> all parents lie to their children..at one point or the other..
<Gordon> but what happens if you are caught lying?
<Lucifer> In BJK's intro he mentioned that it would be frowned upon to model >H after religions
<MRAmes> ChrisR: Lying. Most people don't want to hear the truth. They just want to be comfortable and happy.
<Lucifer> But I don't think that is necessarily the case
<Eliezer> I wouldn't lie to my children
<Lucifer> We should adopt the things that religions do right
<PD> I was joking
<Lucifer> Throw out the rest
<Gordon> can you think of a society which does not punish lying?
<MRAmes> All of them.
<BJKlein> What do religions do right?
<PD> But there is already enough of a quasi-religious element in >H thinking to contribute to its popularity
<Mermaid> religion is a lie...are you being punished for spreading religion?
<PD> Lies are intentional
<Gordon> religion is not a lie necessarily
<Gordon> Scientology is a lie
<Mermaid> religion binds the common folk, BJ
<Eliezer> Mermaid, I believe the statement was "is immoral"
<Gordon> Christianity is not
<ChrisRovner> Lying is a destructive force. To lie is to force other mind to do what you want. It's violating their volition (whatever their volition is, they don't want to be lied to, by definition). Lying never makes the world better
<Mermaid> and it does it right and it does it well
<Lucifer> Religions must satisfy some deep human need, otherwise people wouldn't be sending them so much money
<Mermaid> morality or lack of it is a very relative term
<PD> I would shy away from absolute statements like "lying never makes the world better"
<MRAmes> Chris: Nope. Lying is misrepresenting the truth... that doesn't violate anyone's volition.
<Gordon> Mermaid: you, as a human, are simply not smart enough to know if you have a moral responsibility before the fact if it's acceptable to lie
<Eliezer> People may want me to lie to them but *I* don't want to lie to them
<ChrisRovner> MRAmes: It's misrepresenting the truth with a goal, usually conflicting with the victim's goal
<Eliezer> it may not violate their volition but it violates mine
<MRAmes> lol
<Eliezer> I'm not a Friendly AI
<PD> Gordon, huh?
<BJKlein> Lucifer, what does religion satisfy?
<Eliezer> if I don't want to lie you have no right to make me
<Mermaid> ok..consider this...
<MRAmes> Chris: Sometimes. Many times not.
<Lucifer> I think religions provide a way to give meaning to peoples' lives
<Mermaid> from the minute you are born...with every minute that ticks away..you are one minute closer to death...
<PD> Of course I could still think you are wrong insofar as you refuse to lie in some situation where I think you should have ;\
<Eliezer> they are not exactly the lowest bidder on that, Lucifer
<ChrisRovner> Wrong meanings, for what I know
<Lucifer> They provide community, support, answers
<MRAmes> Chris: Many in society are wrapped up in a web of lies that they do not want challenged.
<Mermaid> is our life a lie?
<PD> And there are always such situations
<Gordon> PD: from the position of volition based morality, there's an exception for moral responsibility (the case when it's better to violate volition than not)
<Eliezer> they demand, for example, that you believe lies
<PD> I think the idea of our life being a lie is incoherent :(
<BJKlein> People are having trouble finding meaning...? What kind of meaning?
<Eliezer> I've given meaning to a lot of people's lives without demanding that
<Eliezer> religions are simply incompetent at the job
<MRAmes> of truth telling
<Eliezer> of giving meaning
<PD> Gordon, sounds like rational desire theory
<Eliezer> which can be done without ever once demanding that anyone step off the path of rationality
<Lucifer> Eliezer, you are not as successful as Rael
<PD> I thought you were saying something else
<MRAmes> yet
<Eliezer> that depends on how you define success
<ChrisRovner> lol
<Gordon> Lucifer: I'm not so sure that there's a competition going on there
<PD> Of course there is ;\
<Lucifer> There is definitely a competition going on here
<MRAmes> Gordon: Good point. But there is really. A competition for funding.
<Lucifer> Who will forge the future?
<BJKlein> looking at most successful organizations, there is usually one figurehead... someone people look to as the leader
<PD> I would wager that the competition for brainpower is more important.
<BJKlein> that gives them "meaning"
<BJKlein> we're all looking for a leader
<Gordon> MRA: I'm willing to guess that our funding sources are not giving money to the Raelians instead
<Mermaid> god is a figurehead...
<Mermaid> do you want to be god?
<Lucifer> List all the organizations in the world, sort them by power and influence. Where does ImmInst, ExI, SingInst, CoV, come in?
<MRAmes> BJ: Yeah. Its the tribal 'thing'.
<Gordon> PD: ditto
<PD> It's also a generalization
<PD> :(
<MRAmes> Gordon: You never know.
<MRAmes> Gordon: People don't usually give you money because you are telling the truth. They give you money because they want to believe what you say.
<Gordon> BJ: we don't need a leader necessarily
<BJKlein> Lucifer.... hopefully, we're growing faster than most other anti-transhuman organizations, or we're somehow not working
<Gordon> while we certainly need money for research, is that really the way you want to get it?
<PD> Speaking of the competition for brainpower, I imagine that >H organizations are going to be more influential in the long run even with fewer members than some really popular cults
<ChrisRovner> If SIAI succeeds in creating Friendly AI, then it's fair to say that it's the most influential organization of all times
<ChrisRovner> Even if it creates unFriendly AI :/
<Lucifer> Chris, SIAI can't do it without funding
<Lucifer> The sad fact is we cannot do very much without funding
<BJKlein> PD, because of access to tech?
<Lucifer> Which is why I'm harping on that aspect
<PD> Because of access, in general
<Eliezer> but none of you have the power to make funding materialize from thin air
<Gordon> Lucifer: if nothing else we can move to Argentina next door to Chris and live for $1000 a year
<MRAmes> I detest lying, and even have real trouble asking for funding... on a personal level.
<BJKlein> Gordon, heh
<MRAmes> :)
<ChrisRovner> Gordon: There are friends in Zimbabwe
<Eliezer> in some ways BJKlein has accomplished more by trying to build communities than SL4 has by sitting around wishing for money
<Mermaid> gordon: who is 'we'?
<Eliezer> the trick is to find things that you can actually do
<MRAmes> Hooray for BJ!!!
* BJKlein falls over into the fire
<PD> In a different context...
<BJKlein> *poof*
<Gordon> Mermaid: whoever wants to come be part of the beginning of the end
* MRAmes pulls BJ out of the fire..
<BJKlein> heh ;) thanks
* Lucifer pulls BJK back in, ha!
<PD> lol
* Eliezer puts out the fire
<Mermaid> yea..right...but so far...is there a list of people who fit into that 'we' category
<Gordon> Eliezer is it right now, AFAIK
<Mermaid> and?
<Gordon> and, he's looking
* BJKlein works 26 hrs now getting the forum perfect for the next funding potential
<Mermaid> so..right now..its 2 people..chris and eliezer?
<MRAmes> oooh!
<Eliezer> possibly Ames, possibly Raimondi, possibly Mike Li
<MRAmes> Plus some part-timers.
<BJKlein> and who said nootropics didn't work?
<Mermaid> ahh..i see
<Utnapishtim> hi
<Gordon> Chris is the volunteer coordinator: I meant more along the lines of people who were going to program seed AI
<BJKlein> Welcome Back Utnapishtim
<Lucifer> a2i2 is also working on a >H AI
<Mermaid> gordon...would productivity increase or decrease if the whole lot of you go to Argentina
<MRAmes> Mermaid: Productivity is not the issue.
<Mermaid> it isnt?
<BJKlein> So how is Peter these days? Still looking for the optimal lifestyle?
<MRAmes> Mermaid: Cost of living is.
*Eliezer* they took over your chat again
<Lucifer> Novamente is another active seed AI project
<MRAmes> BJ: Last I heard, he is progressing well with his design.
<MRAmes> BJ: Has a highly skilled team, and is meeting - even beating - his deadlines.
<Mermaid> i see
<BJKlein> Excellent
* Lucifer works for a2i2
<Lucifer> (btw)
<MRAmes> BJ: Perhaps it will get harder once they start testing ;)
<BJKlein> way to go Lucifer
<Lucifer> We started testing months ago
<BJKlein> on keeping your deadlines that is.. I hope to keep you alive ;)
<MRAmes> Luc: Yeah... I've been following along.
<BJKlein> can you give us a quick overview of the current successes?
<Lucifer> ok...
<Rotaerk> AAH
<Rotaerk> satan
<Rotaerk> lol
<MRAmes> Naaa... just the morning star.
<ChrisRovner> Venus?
<MRAmes> His sister.
<Rotaerk> hehe, Lucifer and the Kreator
<Rotaerk> in the same chat room
<Gordon> of course not, MRA was talking about the newspaper
<Lucifer> I have a year end project review I can email to interested parties
<BJKlein> bjk@imminst.org
<MRAmes> michaelroyames@yahoo.com
<Lucifer> Send you request to david@lucifer.com so I don't forget, please
<Lucifer> your^
<PD> Zzz
<PD> I turn away for 2 minutes and everyone disappears
<BJKlein> we're looking for more wood
<ChrisRovner> And matches
<BJKlein> kinda cold tonight
<MRAmes> Elizer put out the fire, remember?
<MRAmes> Here's some gas and a burning Marlboro...
<BJKlein> Prometheous where are you?
<Gordon> I'm sure Eliezer will start it back up if he was sure that you wouldn't fall in and die
<PD> Paper towels are good for torches ;\
* BJKlein wraps himself in tinfoil
<Lucifer> The a2i2 project review is online here: http://adaptiveai.com/news/index.htm
<Gordon> you guys are so lazy
* Gordon stars a new fire
<Gordon> starts, even
* MRAmes says to BJ: "How dashing! Does that help fend of the aliens, or are you pretending to be a spud?"
* BJKlein picks up a dirt clod
<BJKlein> Fire in the hole! (((()))))
* MRAmes ducks_________________*
<BJKlein> ok everyone be real quite..
<BJKlein> im going to tell a ghost story
<BJKlein> one lonely dark night...
<BJKlein> long long time ago
<BJKlein> there was a poor little boy
<Mermaid> there is no such thing as a ghost.
<Mermaid> are you lying?..:)
<BJKlein> maybe you're lying about the ghost thing.
<Mermaid> but are you sure that you are not lying?
<MRAmes> Its okay to lie in a story.
<PD> You can't not be sure that you are not lying. And stories aren't lies. :(
<Mermaid> so lying isnt immoral under certain circumstances?..:)
<BJKlein> so.. what if you're whole life is a story?
<PD> At that moment, BJK was enlightened.
<Mermaid> wb rhino
<Mermaid> maybe he is..but i am not..
<rhino> thanks
<Mermaid> what if my whole life is a story?
<PD> Then listen to the zen master
<Mermaid> for enlightenment?
<PD> Mermaid, so is your whole life a lie, too?
<Mermaid> is that the only way to get enlightened?
<BJKlein> someone tell me how to change someones mind..
<Mermaid> is it, PD?
<PD> No...
<BJKlein> that's what we're all trying to do right?
<PD> You could purchase some substances
<BJKlein> change people's mind
<Mermaid> yes, bj
<PD> But listening to stories is easier
<Mermaid> i dont have money to purchase substances
<PD> Well then there you go
<BJKlein> mind control...
<Mermaid> so if you are poor and cant find a zen master...you cant be enlightened?
<Mermaid> surely, there must be another way?
<BJKlein> we're all attempting to control each others mind to a certain degree
* Lucifer agrees with bjk
<PD> There is no other way :(
<MRAmes> BJ: Tell them exactly what they want to hear... but in such a way that it is what *you* want them to hear also.
<Mermaid> ok bj..
<Mermaid> lets hear the story
<Mermaid> sorry i interrupted
<PD> And yeah, we're all always trying to control each other's minds. That's what it means to be social animals ;\
<BJKlein> boys and girls...
<BJKlein> let's start story time..
<BJKlein> come now.. gather round
<BJKlein> this will be a great story about a little boy who finds truth
<Utnapishtim> Will it end with every living happily forever?
<Mermaid> utna, does it matter?
<BJKlein> this little boy had wit, charm, intelligence, and mirth..
<Mermaid> bj..go on
<Gordon> Yahoo! is squishing my new profile picture: http://profiles.yahoo.com/ggw_sysop
<PD> Will he find love, happiness, and giant wads of money, too?
<Gordon> :-(
<Eliezer> did he have rationality?
<BJKlein> yet, he didn't have meaning in his life
<Utnapishtim> well he should have created it
<PD> We never had that talk about what rationality is, did we?
<PD> :(
<Utnapishtim> his fault...
<Mermaid> (gordon: shave)
<BJKlein> Gordon.. nice goat tee
<Gordon> PD: we did
<PD> Damn, and I missed it?
<PD> Oh well
<Gordon> ah, but log there are
<Mermaid> bj..the story...go on, please
<BJKlein> ahhem
<BJKlein> btw the rationality chat is in the archive
<BJKlein> so our boy, named Gordy...
<PD> Yes, but my usual stock of mind-expanding profundities is not in it
<BJKlein> Gordy is a good boy..
<Utnapishtim> BJ don't worry bout interruptuions and keep typing
<BJKlein> he like to play, run, fish, and Singularity
<PD> lol
<BJKlein> opps..
<Eliezer> there are no "interruptions", IRC is an asynchronous medium
<BJKlein> that was a bot
<Gordon> whoa, when did this become a story about me?
<BJKlein> Singularity. Singularity
<PD> lol
<Eliezer> is SingularityMinion a ritual?
<BJKlein> anyway.. our boy Gordy..
<BJKlein> he's a great kid, helps out around the house
<BJKlein> takes his sister to the park.. and does his homework
<BJKlein> but, as I said, he's missing something in his life
<BJKlein> there's a hole in his heart.. he searches and searches for truth
<BJKlein> but to no end
<Utnapishtim> I have little sympathy for little Gordy I must admit
<BJKlein> the library has books, videos, and tapes.. but no use
<PD> lol
<Eliezer> does Gordy ever find Bayes' Theorem?
<BJKlein> he's still looking
<Gordon> have you been listening to me talk in my sleep?
<MRAmes> his parents cannot tell him where to find it
<BJKlein> Ahh, good question..
<Utnapishtim> please somebody...spoonfeed me meaning!!!! woe is me. Too many damn people like that in the world
<BJKlein> Gordy has good parents all right.. but
<BJKlein> they just don't understand
<MRAmes> and they make him eat spinach!
<BJKlein> not only that..
<Eliezer> one day, Gordy met a woman named Tatya
<Eliezer> oh, wait
<BJKlein> but they make him go to church
<Eliezer> nobody's going to understand that reference for another year
<Gordon> I eat spinach of my own accord, thank you :-P
<PD> *goes for google
<MRAmes> there are lots of friendly people at church but...
<BJKlein> Gordy sits in church.. listens to all the crap spouted about jesus and god..
<BJKlein> but he's still lost
<Utnapishtim> Problem with the church is that they are wrong
<PD> They engage in bizarre speach acts that do not cohere in little Gordy's head?
<MRAmes> they don't seem to be able to fill that hole in his heart.
<Gordon> but digs the organ music
<PD> *speech even :(
<Utnapishtim> organs rock
<MRAmes> and the choir chicks.
<BJKlein> there ya go children..
<BJKlein> you're starting to see the moral of this story
<BJKlein> everywhere Gordy goes, he's still not happy
<Eliezer> "Snow goons are bad news."
<Utnapishtim> The only moral I see is that Gordy needs to start looking inside for meaning rather than waiting for the world to provide it
<BJKlein> he's still looking for some truth some meaning..
<PD> Stupid existnetialists
<Eliezer> you can't find meaning by "looking inside" or anything else that simple, if it were that easy everyone would be doing it
<Utnapishtim> bad choice of words
<Utnapishtim> my bad
<BJKlein> so, Gordy has enough.. he's packs his little knapsack..
<MRAmes> and his long johns
<BJKlein> with 2 cans of spinach
* Dem0n away
<BJKlein> 1 bottled water
<Utnapishtim> what I meant was that Gordy needs to definehis own purpose, rather than look for an externally imposed one
<Gordon> a crotch can not survive on spinach alone!
<Eliezer> a lighter, six feet of rope, and a small plush Cthulhu doll
<MRAmes> and some pretzels, because that's all that was left in the cupboard.
<PD> lol
<PD> I always did want a plush Cthulhu for Christmas...
<BJKlein> Gordy makes one last look around his home...
<Eliezer> before he sets it on fire
<BJKlein> peaks in his parents.. and sis
<Utnapishtim> steals his dads platinujm card
<PD> Car keys
<Eliezer> begins casting the spell that will open the portal
<Lucifer> http://www.toyvault....sh_cthulhu.html
<Gordon> how, didn't realize that this was a Swedish story
<Gordon> *wow
<PD> Ahem
* BJKlein is briefly distracted by some blond
<BJKlein> with fake lips
<PD> Thanks Lucifer, but it just won't feel right unless it's a gift
<MRAmes> tiny motes of green light sparkle around Gordy's head... and
<MRAmes> he feels a little woozy...
<Utnapishtim> BJ so what does li'l Gordy do next?
<BJKlein> yes.. our little Gordy
<BJKlein> He quietly closes the front door...
<BJKlein> and a feeling of freedom comes over his small frail body
<BJKlein> he doesn't know what the future holds.. but he knows that he has the opportunity
<MRAmes> ...and as his feet leave the ground, he wonders why he has never tried flying before.
<BJKlein> and he is ready to take whatever life dishes out.. he's on a mission to find it..
<BJKlein> the one think he's been looking for all his life..
<MRAmes> good mustard.
<PD> lol
<Gordon> the rest of my beard
<MRAmes> found it
<Utnapishtim> A sirloin steak cooked medium rare with peppercorn sauce and mushrooms?
<PD> Canada?
<Utnapishtim> sex?
<BJKlein> lol
<BJKlein> getting warm
<Gordon> romance
<Gordon> love
<Eliezer> immortality
<BJKlein> bingo!!!!!
<ChrisRovner> He was looking for bingo??
* BJKlein kisses Eliezer on the forhead
<BJKlein> good little lad
<BJKlein> you're certainly a smart child
<MRAmes> Eliezer... your blushing!
<Utnapishtim> So does lil gordy go into biotech? Or does he try to constuct a friendly AI?
<PD> Does he fly to canada and have sex?
<MRAmes> BJ: So now that he's got it, what's he going to do with it?
<BJKlein> well that's the thing..
<taza0> so, what is he searching for after he's an immortal?
<BJKlein> he can only look for it..
<BJKlein> immortality is not something to 'have'
<BigEyedAnimeChild> it's something you use
<BJKlein> it's an illusive woman that leaves you each morning
<BJKlein> only to rack your dreams each night
<Utnapishtim> That isn't sop bad
<PD> That's pretty damn good from where I'm standing
<Utnapishtim> particularly if Gordy has to work during the day
<BJKlein> yes, it's not bad after a while
<BJKlein> you get used to the abuse
<Utnapishtim> as long as she keeps wracking at night
<Utnapishtim> well...
<Utnapishtim> ?
<PD> So...
<PD> ?
<BJKlein> yes?
<PD> What happened to the story?
<Utnapishtim> you gotta give us some payoff on the story!!!
<BJKlein> you wish to hear more about our little friend Gordy?
<Gordon> well, then Tatya comes along and ...
<PD> Well, it's a little surreal... The little boy runs away from home and becomes immortal? :(
<Utnapishtim> what happened to li'l gordy and his quest for the beanstalk
<Utnapishtim> I meant immortality
<BJKlein> ok.. i'd hope not to tell this part... but
<PD> Hmm
<BJKlein> Gordy makes a big mistake
<PD> Does Gordy go bungee jumping?
<BJKlein> he has found out what makes his hart full..
<Gordon> he typed /join #immortal
<BJKlein> it's knowledge and truth and the quest for immortality..
<Utnapishtim> Does Gorsy's life inmsurance policy not pay out to cryonics providers?
<BJKlein> however, a real woman bumps into him in the library..
<BJKlein> and she steals his heart away
<PD> Ut, I'm sure if you have a bungee jumping accident, cryonics won't help
<BJKlein> Gordy finds another immortality in her eyes
<BJKlein> a more viceral and fun immortality..
<Utnapishtim> PD: Probably not. Hadn't read your question. Bungee jumping rocks though!! Have done it several times
<Gordon> I see, this is all a round about plot to keep me from getting involved with women
<PD> Bah... Placing fun before longevity? For shame!
<Utnapishtim> BJKlein: Now Gordy is losing me
<Utnapishtim> I thought he was bright!
<Utnapishtim> metaphorical immortality is lame!!! He should be chasing the real deal
<BJKlein> Gordy is just as suseptable to human temptations as the next
<Utnapishtim> He can get laid AND chase immortality
<Utnapishtim> its not an either/or proposition
<PD> lol
<BJKlein> the pharamones and evolutionary psychology are overpowering
<BJKlein> pheromones (breaking my spell check rule)
<Utnapishtim> the girl smells good?
<BJKlein> yeh, but he doesn't know it on a conscious level
<PD> So yeah, I was watching Robin Williams the other night
<PD> ;\
<BJKlein> HBO special New York?
<PD> God gave men a penis and a brain...
<Utnapishtim> how old is gordy at this point anyway? This sounds like this woman is suspect... I am still picturing Mcauley Cuklin from the Home Alone era shacking up with an older woman....
<PD> Yeah
<BigEyedAnimeChild> "I guess it balances out."
<BJKlein> but only enought blood for one
<BJKlein> susan and I about died... opps
<PD> Watching Williams?
<BJKlein> yeh
<BJKlein> Gordy grew up fast after running away
<Utnapishtim> Ok
<PD> And I rented Insomnia yesterday, too, so it felt really bizarre ;\
<Lucifer> So what's the moral of the Gordy story? Or is there more to it?
<Utnapishtim> So anyway What is the deal with Gordy once he has married and cranked out a couple of rugrats
<BJKlein> ok..
<BJKlein> we've followed poor little Gordy through life
<BJKlein> sometimes eventful, sometimes not
<Utnapishtim> has he got a cryonics policy
<Utnapishtim> ?
<Utnapishtim> Does he intend getting one?
<BJKlein> Gordy had to hold off.. to afford a ring
<PD> Uh oh
<BJKlein> his new finace, Tina, wanted something more substantial
<PD> before you die, you'll see the ring
<Gordon> what happened to Tatya?
<Utnapishtim> Gordy should have invested properly and learned about compound interest
<BJKlein> that's her nick name
<PD> That was physical
<PD> heh
<BJKlein> Tatya is her real name
<BigEyedAnimeChild> ergh
<PD> Gordy should been an international jewel thief
<PD> *should have
<Eliezer> please don't try to assimilate my complex hints
<Eliezer> just look back in a year or whatever
<PD> lol
<Utnapishtim> Lets keep the gordy story moving. I'm anxious to learn of his fate
<BJKlein> ok... Tatya and Gordy..
<BJKlein> they're into one another for real.. he's lost all hope of finding the real truth
<Gordon> I think it's ~Tatya now
<Utnapishtim> Allthough I must admit, that like Shakespeare's Hamlet Gordy is ultimately a little too whiny and passive to generate any true sympathy
<PD> As opposed to the fake truth :9
<BJKlein> for now.. he only sees a big screen and tivo as his ultimate goal in life
<Eliezer> Tina. Go with Tina.
<BJKlein> Tina.. yeh.. good little Eliezer, thank you
<Lucifer> Does Tina have a big screen?
<BJKlein> uhhh
<BJKlein> bad Lucifer
<PD> lol
<PD> lol
<PD> :)
<Utnapishtim> It it flat?
<BJKlein> now now
* BJKlein wags his finger
<Utnapishtim> Does he have 20 inch rims on his ride?
<Utnapishtim> a diamond encrusted rolex on his wrist?
<Gordon> hey, that's apparently my Tina you're making sexual comments about
<PD> Ahem
<BJKlein> Tina is a nice girl, but she wants fine china and a new astrovan
<Utnapishtim> I was talking about tVS sorry.
<Utnapishtim> Tina should be asking for an Escalade
<BJKlein> so Gordy is working hard, he has no time to think about his childhood mission
<PD> Does Gordy get rich with a job of no obvious importance?
<Gordon> obviously not: wife and children
<PD> Point
<BJKlein> actually Gordy is smart, he works for a bank
<PD> Pff
<PD> Gordy should own a bank
<BJKlein> so he's refinanced
<PD> Yes yes go on
* BJKlein is amazed at how a story can grab attention
<BJKlein> makes a mental note
<BJKlein> okok...
<Utnapishtim> BJ: That is because you are refusing to give us closure!
<PD> Well I'm reading a book
<PD> lol
<Gordon> BJ: heh, you're on your way now :-)
<Lucifer> Humans evolved to become the story-telling ape
<PD> Yep
<Lucifer> We are a product of two kinds of replicators: memes and genes
<BJKlein> everyone likes happy endings...
<Utnapishtim> Why else is story telling a multi-billion dollar industry
<BJKlein> susan always wants the couple to end up together
<Lucifer> Telling stories is what we do -- all the time, everyone
<PD> Nah, I hate happy endings
<BJKlein> but, I don't like shit like that
<PD> Stories is who we are, and where we live ;\
<Utnapishtim> I like elegant appropriate endings, be they happy or sad
<PD> Damn straight, Bruce
<BJKlein> life is not that happy
<Utnapishtim> an ending that closes the narrative loop in a satisfying way
* Lucifer recommends watching Se7en for a fine movie ending
<Gordon> see how many mates you get telling sad stories
<BJKlein> the guy does not alway find immortality.. the girl does not always get the stud.. it's not that simple
<Gordon> I think you'll go with happy ones
<Mermaid> loved seven
<Utnapishtim> BJ: I think that the positives massively outweight he negatives. Heck thats why I want limitless life
<PD> If you want to see a good ending, don't watch AI.
* Eliezer recommends "Dancer in the Dark" or the second season finale of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
<PD> I liked Memento
<Mermaid> i didnt get memento
<PD> lol
<Mermaid> it started out nicely
<Mermaid> fizzled out by the end
<Gordon> PD: just leave 15 minutes before AI ends
<PD> Yep
* BJKlein was momentarily taken over by a bad grimlen
<Utnapishtim> LETS GET THIS DAMNED GORDY STORY WRAPPED UP BEFORE DIGRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<PD> Mulholland Drive was cool
<Mermaid> arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
* BJKlein slaps Utnapishtim with a stick
* Mermaid growls..dont remind me of Mulholland Drive
<Lucifer> Can we skip forward to the head death?
<PD> lol
<Lucifer> heat ^
<PD> Well, if you didn't get memento...
<nrv8> http://www.sl4.org/bin/wiki.pl?Google
<BJKlein> ahh momento was awesome
<Lucifer> You have to understand that Mermaid is a simple lass
<nrv8> :)
<Gordon> yes, let's get this wrapped up, because I can't both read IRC and make tea at the same time
<BJKlein> Gordy story...
<PD> I can read IRC and Brainstorms at the same time
* Mermaid bangs her head repeatedly on the keyboard..
<BJKlein> now here's the end...
<Eliezer> "And they all lived happily ever after."
<BJKlein> Gordy and Tina were driving it their new astrovan
<BJKlein> home from the the baseball game
<BJKlein> and a dear runs out in fron of them...
<Utnapishtim> Were they redsox fans?
<Lucifer> Gordy! Watch out for that meteor!!
<PD> A dear?
<Gordon> and they find a fluffy bunny and bug it forever, then end
<Utnapishtim> Is that why gordy is unhappy?
<BJKlein> deer
<BJKlein> yes.. Ahh, Thank You. PD
<BJKlein> good lad
<PD> You're welcome.
<PD> I wouldn't want you to run over a dear
<PD> That would be mean
<Eliezer> I wouldn't want you to run over a deer either
<BJKlein> the dear's righ hind leg projects into Tina's skull
<PD> Maybe it wasn't a dear deer
<BJKlein> killing her instantly
<Gordon> unless we then ate it
<BJKlein> Gordy is now free to find true immortality.. he quits his bank job..
<BJKlein> and hooks up with Eliezer and they raise 3million and kick off the Singularity
<Utnapishtim> Gordy shoulda bought the escalade and put bullbars on the grill
<BJKlein> THE END
<PD> Wow, that was um
<Utnapishtim> The moral of the story. women distract you?
<Gordon> you had me up until the part where Eliezer and I `hook up'; when did either of us become homosexual?
<Lucifer> No, the moral is that Gordy should not have waited so long to kill Tina
<PD> Tell that one to your dear
<Utnapishtim> Hey BJ: What does Susan think of this story?
<PD> lol
<BJKlein> yes.. that's a good assessment.. women are a distraction.. however this story was a bad case scenario.. women can be a good distraction also.. and quite helpful
* BJKlein looks kindly at LogLady
<BJKlein> now I know why it's called LogLady
<Mermaid> she is no lady
<Mermaid> she is a slut
<nrv8> man eater
<Eliezer> you probably should have worked out the plot in advance
<LogLady> The log does not judge!
<PD> Holy crap
<PD> I thought she was a bot
<Eliezer> okay, *that* was impressive
<Eliezer> oh, wait
* Eliezer looks at Lucifer
<PD> Eh
* Lucifer returns Eli's stare
* PD stares at his shoes
* Mermaid rolls her eyes
<Mermaid> someone with a
<Mermaid> 'lady' in her handle..and look at you guys!
* PD but sees only sock, cuz he doesn't wear shoes in the apartment
<Gordon> lil' Gordy isn't the one going after blow up dolls
* BJKlein looks at the fire slowly smoldering away
<PD> >Hists hate human psychology but they're still horny bastards
<Lucifer> So what was the intended moral of the Gordy story, bjk?
<BJKlein> the moral of this story.. humans love stories
<Lucifer> Is that where humans find meaning?
<BJKlein> we need more of them in the >Huh? movement
<BJKlein> we need a better hook
<BJKlein> maybe we find meaning a story.. sounds like a winner to me
<PD> Yeah, Lucifer
<Utnapishtim> BJ: Best hook you will ever find Humans get to stay young beautiful and horny forever
<PD> That's right
<BJKlein> ok.. your right we have the perfect hook
<Utnapishtim> that is absolutely the most universally compelling thing about living forever
<PD> All this sex is bad crap is not memetically good
<BJKlein> we just need stephen spealburg
<Lucifer> I don't think it is a stretch to say everyone wants to be part of a good story
<PD> Spielberg
<Gordon> but your story is boring if 1,2,3 poof your immortal
<PD> No
<PD> Because it has damsels in distress
<Gordon> it's only interesting if you screw up
<Gordon> or have a really hard time
<Gordon> no one wants to read "Eliezer programmed seed AI in his basement and we all lived happily ever after" for entertainment purposes
<BJKlein> ehh, yeh
<Lucifer> The Truth Machine was a rollickin' good tale
<BJKlein> Haliper has my respect
<BJKlein> Halperine
<BJKlein> shees
<Lucifer> warmer
<Eliezer> Halperin
* Lucifer is pleased to have used "rollickin'" in a sentence
<PD> Try gnarly
<Gordon> http://www.math.tau.ac.il/~danha/
<Gordon> ?
<Lucifer> PD, you are soooo gnarly
<Eliezer> Jim Halperin, Gordon
<PD> Nah, it didn't work :(
<Dem0n> hey Mr. Smart Guy Eliezer
<Dem0n> hello BJKlein
<BJKlein> hola Dem0n
<BJKlein> What the hell are you doing here?
<Dem0n> lol
<PD> He missed the Gordy story
<BJKlein> Gordy story in a nutshell...
<Eliezer> noooooo
<PD> With all its manifestations of Bruce's homicidal urges toward his wife
* Lucifer postulates that religions do well because the followers see themselves in a story of immense scope, importance, and meaning
<BJKlein> if you want to control minds.. make up a good story
* PD agrees with Lucifer
<BJKlein> lol PD
<PD> The grand narrative, if you will
* Lucifer nods
* Dem0n disagrees with Lucifer.
* PD doesn't care for Dem0n's half-cocked opinions
<Dem0n> I think they're just ignorant.
<Dem0n> lol pd
<Eliezer> I can only take over people's minds if they give me explicit permission to do so... that ethics thing again.
<Dem0n> nobody likes me still
* BJKlein places Dem0n closer to the fire
* Dem0n jumps into the fire.
<Gordon> not again
<Lucifer> Have you ever tried to raise money?
<Lucifer> As in raising capital for a venture?
<BJKlein> I pick up money all the time
<Gordon> so, moral of the story: I make a shitload of money, my wife has an accident, and I fund the Singularity almost single handedly?
<Lucifer> I learned that when you do, you are selling nothing more (and nothing less) than a story
<Lucifer> Stories are what investors invest in
<BJKlein> yeh Lucifer, that was an experienced statement
<BJKlein> you must complete the story
<BJKlein> but you also must believe in the story
<BJKlein> and most religious fold really believe
<Lucifer> It helps if you do
<BJKlein> folk
<BJKlein> and it's not out of ignorance...
<BJKlein> they're simply painted themselves into a corner
<BJKlein> Dan Barker managed to find a way out
<Gordon> BTW, if I meat anyone named Tatya then I'm going to come over and see what Eliezer eats for breakfast
<Lucifer> Given what we have discussed so far, what is the role of rituals?
<BJKlein> common bonding event
<BJKlein> this chat was a ritual event...
<Lucifer> hey, good point
<BJKlein> the Gordy was a common mind controling event..
<BJKlein> we all shared in that
<BJKlein> we'll all remember tommorow, but we wont remember 2 yrs from now..
<Lucifer> But most rituals have more structure
<BJKlein> thus we'll need to have another chat soon before we forget everything
<Gordon> except for me, because it seems I have no choice now that you've revealed my future
<BJKlein> sorry, someone has to be the figurehead
<Lucifer> You're so vain, you probably thought that story was about you, don't you, don't you?
<PD> You don't need any figurehead
<Mermaid> oh crap....i cant believe lucifer did a carly simon
<BJKlein> it helps
* Lucifer can't believe it either
* Lucifer was hoping the crowd was too young to get it
<Gordon> no, we all know that song, I think
* BJKlein humms
<PD> I can't remember how it goes
<PD> :(
* Gordon kicks PD out of the tribe
<BJKlein> let's talk about something smart before we look silly
<PD> I had yesterday stuck in my head all day though
<Mermaid> lucifer..how old are you?
<Mermaid> 21?
<Gordon> ... and into the fire
<BJKlein> everyone type your age
<BJKlein> [Age][28.737091 Years]
<Gordon> your age
<PD> 34
<Gordon> 21
<BJKlein> bs PD
<[-rdx-]> Why does age matter?
<Gordon> oops, I mean 20
<PD> lol
<Gordon> Mermaid is putting ideas in my head
<Mermaid> 15
<PD> Yeah
<PD> You found me out
<PD> I'm actually 55
<BJKlein> age is pretty important if you ask me...
<PD> But I like to act young on the web
<BJKlein> most say we only have 30,000 days to live
<Gordon> something tells me Mermaid is not 15
<Lucifer> 12899
<BJKlein> i'd like to know how many I have left
<[-rdx-]> What if I am 17, go to college, own a graphic design firm, and have a very big client?
<PD> You're an ageist
<[-rdx-]> Is age still important?
<PD> !!!
<Mermaid> I AM 15!!!
<nrv8> she's 15 and married
<Lucifer> She's been married for *years*
<Mermaid> yea...and i have been married for 10 years now
<Mermaid> i was raised in a cult..
<Mermaid> anyone over the age of 7 is an old maid
<Gordon> pst, Mermaid, 20 is the optimal fertility age
<Eliezer> Earth years, Earth years!
<BJKlein> more importantly why is age such a contentious topic
<PD> Shut up filthy ageist!
<[-rdx-]> haha
<Lucifer> Now, everyone type your IQ
* Mermaid twirls her finger around her hair and pouts...20 =ancient
<[-rdx-]> 165
<PD> 255
<[-rdx-]> lol pd
<BJKlein> just because your closer to the end of you're reproductive life cycle does not mean you
<BJKlein> are less sexy
<nrv8> ephemeral
<Gordon> um, well, I'm going to tell the truth and say I'm about two standard deviations out
<PD> Tell that to Grams, Bruce
<nrv8> 2005
* Eliezer is smart enough
<[-rdx-]> I love you people... using all these big words.
<BJKlein> Grams?
<Lucifer> me too! (70)
<PD> Grams
* Gordon is two standard deviations to the *right*
<Utnapishtim1> BJKlein: Wel... as raw physical attractiveness people often compensate with smoother social skills
<Utnapishtim1> as raw physical attractiveness declines
<BJKlein> or is that just practice?
<Gordon> you know, the way Eli says that, I wonder if he was disappointed with his IQ score
<Mermaid> i dread the day when i will sprout breasts and then i'll become unattractive
* BJKlein afks
<PD> IQ tests are relatively useless
* Eliezer wonders that Mermaid's ears don't catch on fire from telling such blatant lies
<BJKlein> btw official chat as ended.
<PD> You say that like we care :(
<Eliezer> anyway, I used to believe that experience was no match for intelligence
<BJKlein> feel free to stay and stoke the blaze
* Mermaid gasps
<Eliezer> today I realize that experience is no match for rationality
<Lucifer> Actually her breasts catch on fire, that's why she has to keep sprouting new ones
<PD> Can I toke the blaze instead?
<Mermaid> ok ok...i might have stretched the truth a bit
<Eliezer> it's not that my vast intelligence enabled me to outsmart my parents despite their greater experience
<Mermaid> i am actually a man
<Eliezer> in the matter of, oh, say, religion
<Eliezer> I didn't defeat them
<Eliezer> they defeated themselves
<PD> You were acculturated differently ^^
<PD> *giggle*
<Eliezer> not really, PD
<Eliezer> I don't know why my intelligence didn't defeat itself
<PD> I'm mocking someone ;\
<Eliezer> why I was just never tempted to start rationalizing religious teachings
<Eliezer> or for that matter I *did* rationalize them, but the rationalizations never seemed very compelling and eventually they just dropped off
<Eliezer> and I never even tried to rationalize anything that seemed wrong at the time, just disbelieved it as soon as it seemed wrong
<Gordon> you're lucky: it took me 18 years to learn not to deliberately rationalize
<Eliezer> I can't take credit for that
<Eliezer> it wasn't even deliberate
<Eliezer> maybe it was just that I was so completely uncaring about authority that I wouldn't bother to rationalize something that seemed silly just because my parents supported it
<Eliezer> anyway, I could and did face down my parents at age 11, or the entire Extropians list at age 16
<PD> I don't think that's a feature of intelligence
<Gordon> huh? that must have been one interesting discussion
<PD> I had sort of a similar experience
<Mermaid> eliezer..whats the deal about your 'life story'?
<Mermaid> can i have the file?
<Eliezer> no
<Eliezer> nobody gets to know my life story
<Eliezer> it's enough that when I was needed, I was there
<PD> You can know my life story
<PD> But I'm a pathological liar
<Mermaid> eliezer..dont be silly..spill it out for the mermaid
<Eliezer> Well
<Eliezer> My grandfather, Morris Soller, is a geneticist
<Mermaid> sigh..i dont want to know about your grandfater
<Mermaid> father
<PD> lol
<Eliezer> who became interested, long before Greg Cochran, in the "Ashkenaugment" genes
<Eliezer> see http://www.jerrypour...erclocking.html
<Eliezer> anyway, he did some tracing through the generations
<Eliezer> married wisely
<Eliezer> got his children to marry wisely as well
<Eliezer> and eventually, one of the matches produced me
<Eliezer> that's my story and it's not true
<nrv8> lol!
<PD> Somehow I suspected as much
<Gordon> it would be cool if it were true, though
<PD> It would also be cool if I was batman
<Mermaid> i dub thee, batman
<Mermaid> jason..you be robin
<nrv8> fine
<Lucifer> Elizer is lying of course...
<PD> We need to buy the suits
<Lucifer> about it not being a true story
<Eliezer> well, it's not true as far as I know
<Gordon> of course he is lying because ...
<PD> Of course I'm lying too
<PD> About not being batman
<Gordon> Eli, I am your father
* Eliezer gives Dad a patronizing pat on the head
<PD> lol
<Eliezer> Anyway, rdx, I'd say that no matter how young you are, you can face down anyone and anything if you have enough intelligence and rationality
* Dad hides from Eliezer
<PD> And aggravating wit
<Eliezer> but it doesn't necessarily mean that intelligence trumps experience
* Dad comes back out
<PD> Knowing what you're talking about helps too
<Eliezer> it means that, like intelligence, experience only defeats itself without rationality
<PD> So what is rationality
<Dad> Bayes's Theorem
<PD> lol
<Eliezer> a complex of skills
<PD> So what is rationality
<Eliezer> one of which is only giving answers you really understand for yourself, not answers that you learned from someone else but don't fully understand yet
<Eliezer> always thinking in your own words
<Eliezer> ultimately, it's all Bayes' Theorem
<Eliezer> but the road from here to there is too long to be covered in a chat room
<Gordon> actually, I've been thinking
<Gordon> the kids who do poorly in school
<Gordon> and are always asking "why" and "how come" about `obvious' things
<PD> I would imagine that it's kind of hard to define intelligence sans rationality
<Gordon> might actually be the rational ones (or the dumbs ones)
<Eliezer> another example of a mental skill is keeping track of many possible causes, or simultaneously existing different causes, of the same effect, rather than needing to simplify it down to one
<Eliezer> that skill requires both the native mental talent to keep track of that much mental imagery, which is intelligence
<Utnapishtim1> Wel; : Speaking game theoretically, questioning prevailing social assumptions isn't always a particularly good move even if you are right
<Eliezer> and the knowledge and reflexes that lead you to *try* to track the extra mental imagery, rather than just seizing on a simple answer and running away with it, is rationality
<Gordon> well, now I know something not to do
<Eliezer> questioning prevailing social assumptions, at least internally, is always the rational move
* [-rdx-] away.
* Eliezer prods rdx
<Utnapishtim1> depends on your goals
<Mermaid> down boy, Eliezer....do NOT prod the guests!
<Eliezer> less than you might believe, Utnapishtim
<Eliezer> with enough intelligence, rationality tells you how to achieve your goals
<Eliezer> irrationality, even if - as you believe - it has some short-term social advantage
<PD> Seems to me like we're conflating rationality qua some elements of human cognitive architecture and rationality qua a mode of human thinking that we wetsern intellectuals find virtuous
<Eliezer> will still cost you the intelligence you need to figure out your goals
<Eliezer> no, PD, on a deep enough level they're all the same thing and that same thing is Bayes' Theorem
<Eliezer> I have a marvelous proof of this which this chat message is unfortunately too small to contain
<PD> Do you have a link to it?
<Eliezer> I'm still trying to write it all down, actually
<Utnapishtim1> what if your primary goals ARE getting as much benefit out of social interactions as possible and being content/comfortable
<Eliezer> probably will require a book
<PD> Hmm
<Eliezer> then it depends on how intelligent you are, Uth
<PD> Well, I don't know enough decision theory or Bayesian probability to articulate my skepticism :(
<PD> So I'm gonna use the john
<Eliezer> and how much long-term strategy plays a role in your life
<Eliezer> (another mental skill: avoid substituting easy but irrelevant problems for hard but relevant problems)
* PD afk
<Eliezer> if you are not very intelligent, then your native instincts for social interaction may operate more freely without all that darned truth getting in the way
<Utnapishtim1> I say this because I have known many exceptionally intelligent, but thoroughly unoriginal people who put a great deal of stock in acting in a socially acceptable manner
<Eliezer> if you are very intelligent, then you are probably getting more benefit out of rational long-term planning than whatever differential being rational would cost you
<Eliezer> does this take a *lot* of intelligence? ...perhaps
<Eliezer> fortunately, people have goals in life besides social interaction
<Utnapishtim1> Eliezer: I would have to give some long and hard thought to that
<Eliezer> there is also the simple fact that without rationality, you will never be able to decide accurately the costs and benefits of rationality
<Utnapishtim1> Eliezer: I would suggest that being regarded as important is a VERY central goal for the mast majority of people
<Utnapishtim1> particularly men




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