38 replies to this topic

[xks201]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22571985

No idea where to get it. I'm talking a lower dose than used to sedate yourself. I myself was once a victim of date rape by a fat chick so I have no intention on using it for that purpose. I have a sleeping disorder but in order to get the drug from the doctor here you have to pay tons of money if you don't have insurance and get a narcolepsy diagnoses which prevents you from getting many jobs. The inventor of the compound called it nootropic.

It's sick that someone could patent this compound which is quite old.

[lammas2]

Low-dose GHB is definitely nootropic (personal experience - highly increased motivation, drive; increased mood; studying was no problem). But beware, GHB agonists are also neurotoxic (especially in low doses).
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19288974

Short half-life leads to continous redosing, repeated dosing usually ends with passing out (this can happen even with low-doses). At first there are no withdrawals, but as soon as you start redosing 24/7 (and I'm pretty sure this happens if you happen to have somewhat addictive personality), the withdrawals start and the only thing that can save you is GHB I used GHB for about a year and it was excellent! Besides a pass-out here and there (caused some embarrassing situations), there were no problems. Soon I had to take it 24/7 - sleep was impossible otherwise. Then for about two years I used it pretty much all day and all night. If my stash happened to run out, pure hell broke loose. In the end I just wanted to be normal again. Started tapering, didn't sleep for three weeks. Extreme glutamate rebound, felt very 'neurotoxic'. I'm pretty much recovered right now (3 years since my last dose).

Overall, I don't reccommend. Never again for me.

[lourdaud]

I just discovered GHB and I think I'm in love! I'm somewhat schizoid and a low dose makes me feel a lot more sane. Definitely nootropic, pretty sure it'd enhance my performance on most cognitive tasks.
And higher doses is freaking amazing, highly entactogenic and euphoric, sooo much better than alcohol.
I think I can keep addiction at bay but I'm worried about potential neurotoxicity.. Hope using it as a substitute for alcohol every now and then won't cause too many problems but who knows, maybe I'm playing with fire..

[drg]

It doesn't make sense to use it during the day for anxiety because the half-life is so short but it is great to get to sleep. There seems to be many benefits that persist the following day or couple of days after taking it. The only part of the drug I would consider nootropic would be that it is stimulating after the sedation wears off. It also causes GH to release and I clearly lost weight on it.

I do not know what you mean by low-dose but it is prescribed for narcolepsy 2.25-4.5g twice a night. When I first started taking it did seemed to lift depression but after I continued on it for a while I began to notice that it was actually causing depression. At too high of a dose I felt nauseous, and confused (4.5g x twice a night) after being at that dose for several days. I still take it but I take it close to every other day to reduce side effects.

I don't have narcolepsy but this is the best med I have taken for sleep because it wakes you up in the morning and doesn't cause grogginess.

[lourdaud]

Omg this stuff is so amazing.. But I'm worried, how neurotoxic could it be? Should it be relatively ok to take it instead of alcohol once a week or so?

[lammas2]

If you limit it to once a week, you'll be fine. If you start dosing more often, you'll be sorry you ever started. GHB does not forgive nor forget.

[lourdaud]

If you limit it to once a week, you'll be fine. If you start dosing more often, you'll be sorry you ever started. GHB does not forgive nor forget.

I understand that addiction and tolerance is a potential issue with GABA-B agonism but I'm more afraid of the potential neurotoxicity from agonism at the GHB receptor..

[Ekscentra]

What dose would you guys recommend, specifically for extreme motivation? Is this motivation to do what needs to be done or simply what you want to do? I'd likely be using this once a week or less for schoolwork, nothing more. I have little motivation to do anything other than constantly browse forums anymore, so hopefully this will allow me to start doing something useful for once.

[lammas2]

I understand that addiction and tolerance is a potential issue with GABA-B agonism but I'm more afraid of the potential neurotoxicity from agonism at the GHB receptor..

Well, nobody knows for sure. But from personal experience (and I used it A LOT) and lots of anecdotal evidence, I haven't seen anything that would confirm the neurotoxicity of (reasonable) GHB use (in humans). Don't worry about it. I'd rather be worried about the very real addiction potential and hellish withdrawals. I just can't stress this enough - lots of people have lost many years of their lives to the GHB god.

What dose would you guys recommend, specifically for extreme motivation? Is this motivation to do what needs to be done or simply what you want to do? I'd likely be using this once a week or less for schoolwork, nothing more. I have little motivation to do anything other than constantly browse forums anymore, so hopefully this will allow me to start doing something useful for once.

It really depends on bodyweight and tolerance. For me (80 kg), a good motivational dose was about 1 ml of GBL. This is about 1,5-1,6 grams of GHB, but you should know that GBL has a little bit different effects (less sedating than GHB for me).

[lourdaud]

I understand that addiction and tolerance is a potential issue with GABA-B agonism but I'm more afraid of the potential neurotoxicity from agonism at the GHB receptor..

Well, nobody knows for sure. But from personal experience (and I used it A LOT) and lots of anecdotal evidence, I haven't seen anything that would confirm the neurotoxicity of (reasonable) GHB use (in humans). Don't worry about it. I'd rather be worried about the very real addiction potential and hellish withdrawals. I just can't stress this enough - lots of people have lost many years of their lives to the GHB god.

What dose would you guys recommend, specifically for extreme motivation? Is this motivation to do what needs to be done or simply what you want to do? I'd likely be using this once a week or less for schoolwork, nothing more. I have little motivation to do anything other than constantly browse forums anymore, so hopefully this will allow me to start doing something useful for once.

It really depends on bodyweight and tolerance. For me (80 kg), a good motivational dose was about 1 ml of GBL. This is about 1,5-1,6 grams of GHB, but you should know that GBL has a little bit different effects (less sedating than GHB for me).

Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear! Once a week is more than enough for me, although I've been cheating alot now during the holidays..
This thread made me scared though http://www.drugs-for...ead.php?t=43762

[lourdaud]

Interesting paper http://dl.dropboxuse...d overdose2.pdf
Not really sure what to make of it though..

[zeropoint]

Omg this stuff is so amazing.. But I'm worried, how neurotoxic could it be? Should it be relatively ok to take it instead of alcohol once a week or so?

If it's free of heavy metals or other stuff and pure, much less neurotoxic than alcohol that's for sure, look up Morganthaler's book GHB.....

[lourdaud]

Omg this stuff is so amazing.. But I'm worried, how neurotoxic could it be? Should it be relatively ok to take it instead of alcohol once a week or so?

If it's free of heavy metals or other stuff and pure, much less neurotoxic than alcohol that's for sure, look up Morganthaler's book GHB.....

Well I believe you in that the over-all toxic effects from GHB on the body may be negligible but I'm worried specifically about neurotoxic effects on glutamatergic neurons.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3137190/
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19288974

[medievil]

I have alot of experience with GHB, it can be taken daily as long its not used for sleep and 6 hours a day off a day you stay off it, it WILL cause mental addiction if used this way tough.

 

It did feel cognitively enhancing but that can be a ilusion caused by the rewarding effects, naltrexone works for  the mental addiction according to a few anecdotes in alcohol addicts treated with GHB in Italy.

 

 I haven't seen anything that would confirm the neurotoxicity of (reasonable) GHB use (in humans).

Its neurotoxic in rodents and may be neurotoxic in humans too, low doses are more toxic due to excitoxiticy, combining with a nmda antagonist like memantine is definatly adviced with GHB.

[BarrelBoy]

If you limit it to once a week, you'll be fine. If you start dosing more often, you'll be sorry you ever started. GHB does not forgive nor forget.

 

Just like the hacktivist group Anonymous???

[Introspecta]

Please don't mess with GHB. One of the most addictive drugs i've ever taken with the worst withdrawals I've ever had. Really not something to be playing with. Yes it seems so clean but once you get into daily dosing your screwed until you run out.

 

If you have strong willpower and don't have an addictive personality maybe it could be used safely but really your just playing with fire.

[Raza]

I've done a lot of GHB, both recreationally and as a sleep aid. I would say it's anti-nootropic on most counts, or perhaps more anti-executive-function. Lots of fun, though!

 

Looking over the papers linked here, I don't see a problem taking recreational doses in the weekends, but I'm definitely going to quit using it beyond the two-days-out-of-a-week mark as a sleep aid. I've suspected before I read this that 3-to-4-times-a-week, sub-dependency-threshold use was negatively affecting my executive attention. It seems the threshold for neurotoxicity is much lower than the threshold for dependency, which seems to require chronic use for a week or so, a line that I've never had need or desire to approach.

 

Take-away message seems that moderate recreational doses are least toxic, with low doses and knockout doses both being worse in their own way; and that with daily or near-daily use, taking 90% of every day off isn't protective against neurotoxic effects.The study in the second post injected this stuff daily, which means the rats spent only perhaps an hour of every day under influence.

 

 

Please don't mess with GHB. One of the most addictive drugs i've ever taken with the worst withdrawals I've ever had. Really not something to be playing with. Yes it seems so clean but once you get into daily dosing your screwed until you run out.

 

If you have strong willpower and don't have an addictive personality maybe it could be used safely but really your just playing with fire.

Maybe I do have those things, and maybe it helps that I've nothing to run from in my sober life, but I've never felt that I was playing with fire.

Still, it bears repeating for the audience: do not get into daily, consecutive redosing!

Edited by Raza, 18 June 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[lourdaud]

I've done a lot of GHB, both recreationally and as a sleep aid. I would say it's anti-nootropic on most counts, or perhaps more anti-executive-function. Lots of fun, though!

 

Looking over the papers linked here, I don't see a problem taking recreational doses in the weekends, but I'm definitely going to quit using it beyond the two-days-out-of-a-week mark as a sleep aid. I've suspected before I read this that 3-to-4-times-a-week, sub-dependency-threshold use was negatively affecting my executive attention. It seems the threshold for neurotoxicity is much lower than the threshold for dependency, which seems to require chronic use for a week or so, a line that I've never had need or desire to approach.

 

 

Wait, do you mean you noticed negative effects during the actual highs only or did these linger on afterwards? 

[MetaphasicSystems]

Yeah, it's amazing if you can really stay with a low dose for years... BUT, you'll never source this. 

[Raza]

 

I've done a lot of GHB, both recreationally and as a sleep aid. I would say it's anti-nootropic on most counts, or perhaps more anti-executive-function. Lots of fun, though!

 

Looking over the papers linked here, I don't see a problem taking recreational doses in the weekends, but I'm definitely going to quit using it beyond the two-days-out-of-a-week mark as a sleep aid. I've suspected before I read this that 3-to-4-times-a-week, sub-dependency-threshold use was negatively affecting my executive attention. It seems the threshold for neurotoxicity is much lower than the threshold for dependency, which seems to require chronic use for a week or so, a line that I've never had need or desire to approach.

 

 

Wait, do you mean you noticed negative effects during the actual highs only or did these linger on afterwards? 

 

 

Both, with the lingering getting more prominent with more regular consumption. Emphasis on 'suspected', though; I had other hypotheses as to where that was coming from, and this one has risen in prominence primarily because of the evidence in this thread.

[lourdaud]

 

 

I've done a lot of GHB, both recreationally and as a sleep aid. I would say it's anti-nootropic on most counts, or perhaps more anti-executive-function. Lots of fun, though!

 

Looking over the papers linked here, I don't see a problem taking recreational doses in the weekends, but I'm definitely going to quit using it beyond the two-days-out-of-a-week mark as a sleep aid. I've suspected before I read this that 3-to-4-times-a-week, sub-dependency-threshold use was negatively affecting my executive attention. It seems the threshold for neurotoxicity is much lower than the threshold for dependency, which seems to require chronic use for a week or so, a line that I've never had need or desire to approach.

 

 

Wait, do you mean you noticed negative effects during the actual highs only or did these linger on afterwards? 

 

 

Both, with the lingering getting more prominent with more regular consumption. Emphasis on 'suspected', though; I had other hypotheses as to where that was coming from, and this one has risen in prominence primarily because of the evidence in this thread.

 

Hm, that's rather disturbing. I've had the same suspicions but I can't be sure either (should be said though that I tend to react in a rather paranoid way to everything that happens). It's not comforting to think of how GHB often will produce a tingling sensation under the scalp... 

 

Even if the harm/neurotoxicity issue is minor, I honestly wonder if I should better quit or at least cut back drastically on both my use of alcohol and GHB. Personally I'm very anal about doing everything else right (diet, exercise, nutraceuticals etc) and to then take heavy drugs, even if it's no more than once a week, is actually rather.. well, crazy. Even more so as I already have problems with what I suspect is glutamatergic hypo-function (the slightest NMDA antagonism makes my symptoms worse while piracetam, sarcosine etc brings massive relief).
Only reason I keep drinking this shit is because it's one of the small sources of joy I have and, above all, because of how much easier it gets with the ladies. 

[MetaphasicSystems]

Dude. Go cold turkey now. You don't have a choice if you want to remain healthy and live a full life. No more G.

[Raza]

Hm, that's rather disturbing. I've had the same suspicions but I can't be sure either (should be said though that I tend to react in a rather paranoid way to everything that happens). It's not comforting to think of how GHB often will produce a tingling sensation under the scalp... 

 

Even if the harm/neurotoxicity issue is minor, I honestly wonder if I should better quit or at least cut back drastically on both my use of alcohol and GHB. Personally I'm very anal about doing everything else right (diet, exercise, nutraceuticals etc) and to then take heavy drugs, even if it's no more than once a week, is actually rather.. well, crazy. Even more so as I already have problems with what I suspect is glutamatergic hypo-function (the slightest NMDA antagonism makes my symptoms worse while piracetam, sarcosine etc brings massive relief).
Only reason I keep drinking this shit is because it's one of the small sources of joy I have and, above all, because of how much easier it gets with the ladies. 

 

 

Tingling under the scalp is very unlikely to be a symptom of ongoing neurotoxicity. =P

 

I'm personally not worried about using once a week, and I'm also pretty keen on my (brain) health. With that kind of use, I've only noticed effects lingering on the scale of hours. A couple of the studies above cite the similarity of alcohol and GHB in their patterns of neurotoxicity, which lends additional credence to the idea that isolated dosing shouldn't have lasting detrimental effects. One note of caution you could take from this is to treat alcohol and GHB as cumulative for purposes of neurotoxicity, and limit their combined rather than separate intake. Drug use needs to be calculated for things like these, but it's not inherently bad, and pleasure is actually very important to your health.

 

What's the connection to low glutamate?

 

 

Dude. Go cold turkey now. You don't have a choice if you want to remain healthy and live a full life. No more G.

 

I disagree, and fully intend to do both. Also, I do not think the evidence in this thread supports your drastic position.
 

Edited by Raza, 19 June 2014 - 05:38 PM.

[lourdaud]

Tingling under the scalp is very unlikely to be a symptom of ongoing neurotoxicity. =P

 

Maybe not neurotoxicity but excitotoxicity(?). D-aspartic acid as well as piracetam + dexamphetamine have caused the same kind of tingling. To be honest I have no idea whether this is a sign of any kind of toxicity/overstimulation or whatever but it sure did not "feel" healthy.

 

 

I'm personally not worried about using once a week, and I'm also pretty keen on my (brain) health. With that kind of use, I've only noticed effects lingering on the scale of hours. A couple of the studies above cite the similarity of alcohol and GHB in their patterns of neurotoxicity, which lends additional credence to the idea that isolated dosing shouldn't have lasting detrimental effects. One note of caution you could take from this is to treat alcohol and GHB as cumulative for purposes of neurotoxicity, and limit their combined rather than separate intake. Drug use needs to be calculated for things like these, but it's not inherently bad, and pleasure is actually very important to your health.

 

What's the connection to low glutamate?

 

 

 

Aha, well then I misunderstood, I thought you meant that the effects lingered on for longer than that. 
Any reason in particular to be careful with combined rather than separate intake of either drug?

 

Connection to low glutamate? I don't know about "low" glutamate but I know I'm very sensitive to any kind of glutamatergic stimulation. I don't think it's unlikely that GHB may mess with glutamatergic neurons in some way or other, be it through neurotoxicity, excitotoxicity, desensitization or down-regulation of glutamatergic neurons. 

 

I disagree, and fully intend to do both. Also, I do not think the evidence in this thread supports your drastic position.

 

 

Great reply btw, tonight I'll be G'ing with good conscience. 

[Raza]

Maybe not neurotoxicity but excitotoxicity(?). D-aspartic acid as well as piracetam + dexamphetamine have caused the same kind of tingling. To be honest I have no idea whether this is a sign of any kind of toxicity/overstimulation or whatever but it sure did not "feel" healthy.

 Can't rule it out, I suppose. Excitotoxicity is tricky to diagnose from symptoms.
 

Aha, well then I misunderstood, I thought you meant that the effects lingered on for longer than that.

I suspected they did, but not from using just on the weekends. Only when I used it 3-4 nights a week for sleep.
 

Any reason in particular to be careful with combined rather than separate intake of either drug?

Well, the article remarks that the patterns of neurotoxicity from GHB are very similar to those seen from high-frequency alcohol consumption, and that they share a mechanism of action, which raises the possibility that they might cause the same kind of damage through the same mechanism. In which case, time spent under the influence of one might add up with time spent under influence of the other towards any toxicity thresholds.
 

Great reply btw, tonight I'll be G'ing with good conscience. 

Edited by Raza, 20 June 2014 - 02:05 PM.

[MetaphasicSystems]

It makes a big difference that you live in Amsterdam. I have worked with a lot of people who "ran out" of GHB in the states. It's not pretty, not to mention GBL is often substituted and GHB is full of impurities here. And illegal as shit.

[Raza]

I've ran out. This matters very little if you don't get hooked on continuous dosing in the first place, which seems like the more important thing to avoid. GHB is illegal here as well, although I'll concede that americans run bigger legal risks. I personally prefer GBL for recreational purposes, and although I've seen and heard a lot about GHB made nasty by impurities, I've yet to hear about dangerous bioactive contaminations - it'd be very difficult to leave those from a production error, for this drug.

 

Are you confident that your attitude here follows from the evidence, and that you're not grasping selectively for things that confirm a pre-existing aversion? (That's a question, not an accusation; and the downvote wasn't me.)

Edited by Raza, 21 June 2014 - 12:53 PM.

[lourdaud]

I've ran out. This matters very little if you don't get hooked on continuous dosing in the first place, which seems like the more important thing to avoid. GHB is illegal here as well, although I'll concede that americans run bigger legal risks. I personally prefer GBL for recreational purposes, and although I've seen and heard a lot about GHB made nasty by impurities, I've yet to hear about dangerous bioactive contaminations - it'd be very difficult to leave those from a production error, for this drug.

 

Are you confident that your attitude here follows from the evidence, and that you're not grasping selectively for things that confirm a pre-existing aversion? (That's a question, not an accusation; and the downvote wasn't me.)

 

Why would there be a risk for contaminated GHB? It's just GBL and salt.

Personally I try to avoid GBL. It's a heavy solvent and probably very bad for your gastrointestinal health. The much harder and quicker onset is very pleasant but this will probably lead to higher tolerance and harm (think amphetamines and opiates).

[Raza]

Solvent properties tend not to matter when a liquid is itself diluted in solution. It can't act as a solvent when it's not sufficiently concentrated. I do think diluting it with a lot of water is pretty important with GBL, and it is a lot less well-researched. I comfort myself with the thought that GHB and GBL are bi-directionally metabolized into one another when concentrations get high, so it may only be the dynamics that differ between the two. Not that those can't be very important to health risks.

 

Do you experience tolerance to either of them? I don't. My dose varies with blood sugar and cortisol levels and maybe other markers of wakefulness, but it doesn't change from using it a couple of times over a weekend.

Edited by Raza, 21 June 2014 - 07:30 PM.

[lourdaud]

Solvent properties tend not to matter when a liquid is itself diluted in solution. It can't act as a solvent when it's not sufficiently concentrated. I do think diluting it with a lot of water is pretty important with GBL, and it is a lot less well-researched. I comfort myself with the thought that GHB and GBL are bi-directionally metabolized into one another when concentrations get high, so it may only be the dynamics that differ between the two. Not that those can't be very important to health risks.

I don't know.. I always make sure to fill up with electrolytes and water before going to sleep and I always used 3 dl of water to dilute 1 ml of GBL but my skin was still bone-dry the day after a binge and I had IBS symptoms for several days after.

 

 

Do you experience tolerance to either of them? I don't. My dose varies with blood sugar and cortisol levels and maybe other markers of wakefulness, but it doesn't change from using it a couple of times over a weekend.

 

I can't say for sure yet. I haven't used GHB for more than half a year and I made my current batch from GBL + potassium hydroxide, while the one I made before was from sodium hydroxide, and for some reason the onset is much slower with this salt and it doesn't hit you the same way, so I can't really compare. 
But from what I've heard, to get that euphoric high you'll need more and more, and once the magic is gone it's gone for good. 

I'm thinking of using it less often for this reason alone as for me this stuff increases empathy and makes me feel closer to other people in a way I've never experienced with any drug other than ecstasy.

Edited by lourdaud, 22 June 2014 - 12:37 PM.