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What has helped more your sleep?

sleep quality

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#61 dudmuck

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 05:57 PM

I started taking NAC 600mg once in the morning and once in afternoon and have noticed an improvement in sleep quality. That wasn't the purpose of taking it mind you but a pleasant side effect. I've also noticed that I tend to dream more though it is on schedule so to speak. I generally go to bed around 10pm and my dreams start around 4am (I know because I usually briefly wake up at about the same time each night but easily go back to sleep). Not sure why this has happened but it's definitely a pleasant surprise.

 

any idea why that is?

This article seems to suggest NAC effects glutamate in the brain. http://www.psycholog...lems-i-have-nac

It would seem that too much glutamate would be excitatory, suggesting a problem with conversion to GABA.



#62 FLPsychGuy

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 06:51 PM

 

I started taking NAC 600mg once in the morning and once in afternoon and have noticed an improvement in sleep quality. That wasn't the purpose of taking it mind you but a pleasant side effect. I've also noticed that I tend to dream more though it is on schedule so to speak. I generally go to bed around 10pm and my dreams start around 4am (I know because I usually briefly wake up at about the same time each night but easily go back to sleep). Not sure why this has happened but it's definitely a pleasant surprise.

 

any idea why that is?

This article seems to suggest NAC effects glutamate in the brain. http://www.psycholog...lems-i-have-nac

It would seem that too much glutamate would be excitatory, suggesting a problem with conversion to GABA.

 

Honestly I am not sure why it has happened but it has been consistent with the NAC dosage. I've read that article before and it's certainly a possibility with GABA but I couldn't really say why that would be the case if it is. 



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#63 HoldingTheFaith

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 04:37 PM

Another cheap thing to consider is Niacin: http://forums.phoeni...80/#post-460211

 

I will be trying that, NAC and everything else I can this summer...  http://static.fjcdn....522_2014956.jpg


Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 06 May 2014 - 04:44 PM.


#64 dudmuck

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 05:07 PM

 

 

I started taking NAC 600mg once in the morning and once in afternoon and have noticed an improvement in sleep quality. That wasn't the purpose of taking it mind you but a pleasant side effect. I've also noticed that I tend to dream more though it is on schedule so to speak. I generally go to bed around 10pm and my dreams start around 4am (I know because I usually briefly wake up at about the same time each night but easily go back to sleep). Not sure why this has happened but it's definitely a pleasant surprise.

 

any idea why that is?

This article seems to suggest NAC effects glutamate in the brain. http://www.psycholog...lems-i-have-nac

It would seem that too much glutamate would be excitatory, suggesting a problem with conversion to GABA.

 

Honestly I am not sure why it has happened but it has been consistent with the NAC dosage. I've read that article before and it's certainly a possibility with GABA but I couldn't really say why that would be the case if it is. 

 

 

There is an excellent description of the relationship of glutamate in another thread http://www.longecity...echnical/page-3

This is certainly relevant to sleep and understanding how NAC would function in this regard, as well as other useful information on the subject such as histamine.
 


Edited by dudmuck, 06 May 2014 - 05:07 PM.


#65 HoldingTheFaith

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:45 PM

Found this re NAC, pretty cool: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21838198



#66 Just Kelly

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 10:56 AM

I've had insomnia for almost twenty years. I've always had to take some pretty hardcore knockout drugs to sleep. Recently I started Relora and for the first time I've been able to sleep without medications.It's been awesome. I take one three hours before bed then another thirty minutes before. I've only been using it for a week so idk if I'll get a tolerance but I hope not, it's been amazing. I take melatonin and magnesium and sometimes lemon balm too.

Edited by Just Kelly, 08 May 2014 - 10:59 AM.


#67 Rambotaco

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 08:59 PM

For me what has helped me sleep is pumping seed extract. The one I use is a special blend that contains carbs to help pass the brain/gut barrier. 


I've had insomnia for almost twenty years. I've always had to take some pretty hardcore knockout drugs to sleep. Recently I started Relora and for the first time I've been able to sleep without medications.It's been awesome. I take one three hours before bed then another thirty minutes before. I've only been using it for a week so idk if I'll get a tolerance but I hope not, it's been amazing. I take melatonin and magnesium and sometimes lemon balm too.

 

Try this Zenbev.....



#68 HoldingTheFaith

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 11:51 AM

I've had insomnia for almost twenty years. I've always had to take some pretty hardcore knockout drugs to sleep. Recently I started Relora and for the first time I've been able to sleep without medications.It's been awesome. I take one three hours before bed then another thirty minutes before. I've only been using it for a week so idk if I'll get a tolerance but I hope not, it's been amazing. I take melatonin and magnesium and sometimes lemon balm too.

You had high nightime cortisol. PS Serine would have work too probably. I have more of a quality and maintenance than sleep onset problem.


For me what has helped me sleep is pumping seed extract. The one I use is a special blend that contains carbs to help pass the brain/gut barrier. 


I've had insomnia for almost twenty years. I've always had to take some pretty hardcore knockout drugs to sleep. Recently I started Relora and for the first time I've been able to sleep without medications.It's been awesome. I take one three hours before bed then another thirty minutes before. I've only been using it for a week so idk if I'll get a tolerance but I hope not, it's been amazing. I take melatonin and magnesium and sometimes lemon balm too.

 

Try this Zenbev.....

Talking about this? http://www.amazon.co..._pr_product_top

 

Why does it help sleep, any idea?


Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 09 May 2014 - 11:51 AM.


#69 dudmuck

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 02:51 PM


Talking about this? http://www.amazon.co..._pr_product_top

 

Why does it help sleep, any idea?

 

 

If this is Cucurbita pepo http://examine.com/s...Cucurbita pepo/
then its likely due to night urination issues and/or prostate issues.
 

 

As far as Relora for sleep, seems it would only be of benifit if the cause is stress, such as anxiety or inflammation.

However, the magnolia officinalis ingredient is enhancing GABA-a receptor.


Edited by dudmuck, 09 May 2014 - 02:51 PM.


#70 lnternet

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 03:04 PM

Things that help me sleep (In order of frequency of use)

  • Wearing sunglasses indoors 1-2hrs before I plan to sleep
  • Keeping total carbohydrate intake for the day under 200g (Under 150g works best)
  • Valerian Root Liquid Extract
  • Inner Peace Adaptogenic Blend. I highly recommend their other product TianChi for HPA Axis and adrenal fatigue as well. (http://innerpeace.he...upplement-facts)
  • Melatonin (Under 5mg)
  • 5-HTP (100mg)
  • Liquid Trace Minerals

 

Age: 31 Male | Weight: 145lbs | Height: 5'10" | BodyFat: 13% | Sleep: 8-10hrs | Exercise: 5 days a wk | Goal: Live to 120yrs old (minimum)


Edited by lnternet, 09 May 2014 - 03:11 PM.


#71 shp5

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 07:47 PM

I am currently experimenting with orange tinted lenses to block out blue light in the evening. you get uvex skyper sct-orange very cheap on ebay.

 

 


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#72 TheFountain

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 09:35 PM

Sleep is a multifaceted issue.

 

1-Make sure your body is 'satisfied' with its daily activities. Exercise, sports, whatever helps to give it that linear "okay, it's time for bed" feeling. 

 

2-Light! I think we all need to decrease the amount of unnatural light we absorb daily. That doesn't mean stop getting on a computer for 5 hours daily or whatever it is. It means the last hour or 2 of your night, as you are winding down, should really be spent in a lower light setting so your brains metabolism and circadian rhythm is not unduly disturbed. This is why I have a normal Ereader with a soft LED lighting on it, so that last hour or so if I want to read instead of looking at my computer screen, it will help my brain wind down instead of getting it riled up all over again.

 

3-I am not suggesting go to bed as soon as the sun goes down, but I believe it is important to get some degree of shut eye while the sun is in hibernation. We are in synch with the cycle of day and night, our bodies evolved along these lines. And even though some day in the distant future we may evolve the ability to sleep anywhere, any time under any conditions, we must abide by the bodies cyclical needs for the time being.

 

4-Try not to take supplements for sleep that have too long a half life in your brain. Such as melatonin. And if you do take melatonin you really only need it once a week if you do it right. I have gotten to the point where the more sensitive my body gets the less melatonin I require. Instead I stick with herbs that don't stick around as long. Like Holy basil extract. Gets me to sleep, calms my anxiety by blocking cortisol but is out of my system within 8 hours for the most part. 

 

5-Meditate, yoga, tai chi. Etc. 


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#73 pro-v

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 03:11 AM

I was checking out meds that increase stage 4 sleep and gaboxadol came up. Any experiences or thoughts?



#74 HoldingTheFaith

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 07:43 PM

I am currently experimenting with orange tinted lenses to block out blue light in the evening. you get uvex skyper sct-orange very cheap on ebay.

 

 

The CFS forum people have confirmed that in most of cases the blublocker glasses work, they improve sleep used at the evening. I should get them but I dunno... have to buy them online since my country sucks in the biomedical/alternative health aspect. I went to a shop and they did not have them and lectured me about these "bullshit glasses hyped on the Internet". C´mon.


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#75 Dan1976

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 02:06 PM

Lately I have experimented with 20 mg time-released Vinpocetine before bed. The effects are very good: I have vivid dreams and wake up very refreshed. The effect tends to fade in a few days.

 

Keep in mind that I have sleep apnea disorder and use a CPAP machine. Perhaps the Vinpocetine SR protects me agains hypoxia.


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#76 HoldingTheFaith

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:52 PM

Thanks for telling. How was your sleep prior?


Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 13 June 2014 - 01:03 PM.


#77 HoldingTheFaith

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 12:51 PM

Screened various forums including this forum AND thread and then... Bought an awful lot of supplements, probably some will help. I am also eating lecithin, it *might* be helping with sleep quality. I need to take it consistently for more time to be sure. I can say though, that it makes me yawn at night and feel sleepy if taken at mornings, taken at night gives you a horrible amount of dreaming. REM sleep btw, is not refreshing at all, its function is more memory-mind related than body restoring, depressed people like me display increased REM duration and lowered onset. This correlates with the fact of having a dream every time I wake up.

 

As a rule of thumb, dabbling with neurotransmitters is a good way to tackle sleep issues. Lecithin specifically increases Acetylcholine. The thing is, we dont even know in each specific case which neuros need to be upped. Interestingly enough I found a study showing that L DOPA intravenously (very low doses) in depressed patients inhibits REM sleep. So thats one thing I will be trying.

 

It is a tough call though, as say hormones also greatly affect sleep. But I think mine are pretty good, except melatonin and cortisol which are low and high respectively.

 

I already wake up early and go to bed as soon as I can, do exercise everyday despite feeling pretty much shitted. Trying to get some muscles with bad sleep is SLOW. I also attempt to do stuff to uplift and relax me in waking hours, like doing "responsible" stuff aka studying for university,

 

The bottom line is... If I try enough stuff, supplemental or not, something will stick out. LOL

 

Stay safe insomniacs  :happy:


Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 04 November 2014 - 12:55 PM.

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#78 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 08:40 AM

Clonidine. It's an alpha 2 agonist which is a negative feedback receptor that reduces the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline. I tried dozens of pills and supplements to beat my insomnia before that finally worked.


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#79 HoldingTheFaith

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 09:57 AM

Any side effects from that? No side effects means I dont care it being a drug. Upon further reading, we are talking about a alpha-2 adrenergic agonist. An interesting compound to try for sure with those that have a fucked up HPA/CNS.

 

I should look for a doctor friend of my family or something like that to get stuff prescribed. I have done that in the past. I am just not sure if I am a severe case enough to need drugs.


Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 05 November 2014 - 09:59 AM.


#80 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 10:36 AM

The difference, IMO, between supplements and drugs is largely a cultural one. Supplements are drugs. Look at the definitions on dictionary.com:
 

  1. any substance recognized in the official pharmacopoeia or formulary of the nation.
  2. any substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease in humans or other animals.
  3. any article, other than food, intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of humans or other animals.
  4. any substance intended for use as a component of such a drug, but not a device or a part of a device.

 

The first one is a matter of labeling, the others clearly demarcate supplements as drugs. We think of nature as being more benign and helpful, but that's because the people who ate the deadly shit didn't live to tell the tale. Which would you feel is safer, having a random pharmaceutical or eating random berries in a forest? I know I'll take the former.

 

Before thinking of nature as benign, remember that there are few drugs more powerful then opium, cocaine and scopolamine.

The only side effect you'd have to worry about is low blood pressure. If you do get a prescription, you can get a blood pressure cuff from any store or online site. This one didn't leave me feeling groggy in the morning like others did.


Edited by OneScrewLoose, 05 November 2014 - 10:37 AM.


#81 HoldingTheFaith

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 12:03 PM

Which would you feel is safer, having a random pharmaceutical or eating random berries in a forest? I know I'll take the former.

 

A solid point, I give its deserved recognition to that logic and agree. However, the forums are stuffed with victims of SSRI´s, Benzos or say things like Fluoroquinolones or Propecia that have developed chronic or quasi-chronic symptoms after discontinuing use. So as usual, is not a white/black scenario. Yeah, drugs are made by mankind with the intention of improving health, and they tend to in specific circumstances, but give a healthy person drugs he dont need and he will quickly stop being healthy. For instance, I am a big fan of Acetominophen for headaches maybe once per week, but daily use would make my body work worse and age more rapidly because of its effects on the liver.

 

Personally the few sleep drugs I have tried have gave me a hell of increased mental or physical symptoms, plus worse sleep. Some people, neuro-atypicals like me that get X psychiatric diagnosis, already have altered neurochemistry and my experience shows in cases like this drugs are something to be taken with care.

 

If these last supplements fail I will for sure look for a GOOD psychiatrist and discuss options with him from Baclofen to Clonidine.


Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 05 November 2014 - 12:06 PM.


#82 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 10:39 PM

IMO I feel a lot of the symptoms people have around here after SSRI use and other drugs are at least partly nocebo effects. A couple years ago I found out myself that I am highly susceptible to placebo/nocebo effects. This doesn't mean it's not real, just that it's not caused by the drug. For instance, a couple years ago a lot of prescriptions were causing my visual snow to get worse. After I "decided" that it was a nocebo effect, this ceased to happen. Depression can definitely fuel this.

 

If you want to try some more supplements for sleep and you haven't already, there's:

 

Ashwagandha

Valerian Root

L-Tryptophan (must be taken on an empty stomach)

Picamilon (drug sold as a supplement)

Phenibut (drug solid as a supplement, addictive, I would stay away)

 

Clonidine is a pretty tame medication as long as you're blood pressure is normal. It comes in .1mg and .2mg and is not habit forming. I took up to .6mg at one point. There is no craving for the drug if I don't take it, just a rise in blood pressure. Baclofen can cause withdrawal with sudden cessation of use, but ironically does not produce tolerance as the doses go up. I would start with Clonidine over Baclofen. You don't need to pay extra for a fantastic psychiatrist to try the Clonidine. It will either work or it won't. Your physician can prescribe either of these. And, in fact, my psychiatrist could not prescribe Baclofen when I tried that, as it was outside is ususal pharmacopia. He refused, though he wasn't against me being on it.


Edited by OneScrewLoose, 05 November 2014 - 10:39 PM.


#83 HoldingTheFaith

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 10:21 AM

That´s interesting, I didnt even knew about the notion of nocebo, looked it up.

 

I will update with stuff I try and its effects.



#84 jroseland

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 12:11 AM

Sleep on Phenibut is... Wow, profound



#85 HoldingTheFaith

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 09:39 AM

GABA is super important for sleep! Phenibut however is not a long term solution.


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#86 Dan1976

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 09:50 PM

D-phenylalanine (DPA) inhibits the activity of an enzyme, carboxypeptidase-A, that normally suppresses endorphin levels.

Taking it can have effects similar to codeine. It suppresses pain and makes one sleepy. The effects last a long time.

In large doses I found it useful for sleeping. Unfortunately tolerance develops quickly.

In small doses it can be used to treat depression.

Can be purchased for cheap from iHerb.

Do not confuse it with L-phenylalanine which is a precursor of dopamine.

The D,L-phenylalanine (DLPA) contains both forms. Only the D form is highly sedating.
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#87 RonBurgandy

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 03:06 AM

I've had severe insomnia for the past few years following my "heavy use" in my early 20's. Been down the road to trying most all the OTC remedies.

 

Teas: Chamomille, LemonBalm, PassionFlower, Valerian

Supps: Tryptophan, 5HTP, Taurine, GABA, Melatonin

 

For some time I was combining 500mg of Tryptophan with LemonBalm, PassionFlower, and Valerian I'd combined into a tea that I'd spike with some cherry extract.

(This helped but I found it negatively affected my cognition in the AM)

 

Then, I ran across a 3mg timed release version of Melatonin made by Natrol. All I can say is good things... Since I started taking it I have been getting a solid 6-8 hours per night, and if I wake up after 2-3 hours... I'm right back to sleep. I have since stopped taking anything else for my sleep and for the first time in years I feel like I'm finally recovering adequately after my w/o's. 


Edited by RonBurgandy, 10 November 2014 - 03:07 AM.

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#88 Dan1976

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 01:39 PM

I can confirm that time-released melatonin is very good. It keeps you from waking up during the night (the same happens with phosphatidyl-serine which lowers cortisol - a surge of cortisol or adrenalin can wake you up during the night - and can happen due to a lack of carbs).


Edited by Dan1976, 10 November 2014 - 01:39 PM.


#89 dudmuck

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 05:40 PM

phosphatidyl-serine only lowers cortisol if cortisol is high.  Strong adrenals and de-sensitized cortisol receptors in your head.

 

However, its instead often the case of weak adrenals.  This can only be determined by diurnal saliva test.   Correct that lack of carbs is a factor.  Actually its poor blood sugar regulation, which is always a factor in abnormal adrenal function.  Upregulating GLP-1 can help.  Always think of sleep as fasting state.

 

But only the diurnal test can tell you if you need adrenal support, or instead to sensitize the cortisol receptors with something like seriphos.



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#90 HoldingTheFaith

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 06:10 PM

phosphatidyl-serine only lowers cortisol if cortisol is high. Strong adrenals and de-sensitized cortisol receptors in your head.

However, its instead often the case of weak adrenals. This can only be determined by diurnal saliva test. Correct that lack of carbs is a factor. Actually its poor blood sugar regulation, which is always a factor in abnormal adrenal function. Upregulating GLP-1 can help. Always think of sleep as fasting state.

But only the diurnal test can tell you if you need adrenal support, or instead to sensitize the cortisol receptors with something like seriphos.

How would you explain consistent very low salivary cortisol (24 h with 4 samples) and consistent high blood cortisol? Because over the years thats what my tests showed. It points out to the high serum cortisol model of depression on one hand, on the other I have severe adrenal exhaustion. Very confusing. All my adrenal treatments have failed miserably in terms of improving sleep quality which is my issue rather than insomnia. Seriphos is in my "next to try" supp list.

Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 10 November 2014 - 06:11 PM.






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