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2 Years of Daily Phenibut Use - Success

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#1 ericzx777

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 01:49 PM


DISCLAIMER: I am not a physician or heath expert. Below is a summary of my personal experience with taking phebibut, and does not constitute medical advice that only your physician can provide. Because I have had so much success with phenibut, it does not guarantee similar results for everyone … so now you can’t sue me.


I have been suffering from debilitating anxiety my entire life. I have sought treatment diligently, have been prescribed a variety of medications, to no avail. I’ve heard of phebibut online, and decided to give it a try. My life changed entirely. After taking the first dose, my anxiety was completely gone, I was able to think more clearly, act more fluidly in social situations, and turn my life around 180 degrees. I have been taking it for over 2 years, at 2 grams per day, which may sound ridiculously insane to some, so I’d just like to shed some light on that.

Firstly, everyone warns about tolerance to phebibut, and how you should take it sparingly, lest suffer. Everyone talks about ‘tolerance’ as if you’ll need more, and more and more of the dosage to yield the same effect … like it’s an infinite loop to the point where in 3-4 years you’ll have to consume seventeen pounds of the stuff to get the same effect. Nobody talks about peak tolerance. Sure, you build tolerance to any substance, but tolerance starts to peak out at a certain threshold. For me, that threshold would be 2 grams. I’ve been taking that much for over two years. Sure I’ve built tolerance, going from .5g, to 1g, to 1.5g … but it’s leveled out at 2g, and taking any more than that, even after 2 years, would make me feel drowsy and nauseous. Likewise, doctors prescribe some medications that have tolerance (e.g. Adderall, antidepresants). These medications are MEANT to be taken continuously, without cessation, as an ongoing treatment. Skipping does is not advised, because obviously, adverse symptoms would set in. Cessation, if desired, would be achieved by tapering over the course of weeks/months, not abrupt cold-turkey. Thus, dependence is sometimes explicit in treating disorders. Now, chronic phenibut use has not been extensively studied, but directly quoting from a translated Belarusian prescription guide of phenibut** “Prolonged use helps increase mental and physical workload, improves memory, helps maintain healthy sleep cycle.” citing the dosage as multiple times daily, for periods of multiple days/weeks. If you are worried about dependence or tolerance, or just want to take it a few days on/off, then you are flirting with the potential for excruciating withdrawal symptoms, and you’d be better off not taking phenibut at all.

Am I worried about dependence? Well, to prove to myself that I can live without phebibut, I’ll tell you that I have successfully quit by tapering down over the course of a month a few weeks ago. Certainly, withdrawal set it. It was horrible, but manageable since I did a slow taper. After cutting my dose down to around .5g/day and then abstaining for a few days, my anxiety returned with a vengeance. In other words, I returned to being my anxiety-filled self. And so, I’ve proven my point. Sure, I can quit phenibut (tapering down over the course of a few weeks) … but why would I want to? So I started taking my usual 2g dose every morning, and here I am, six months later. With my anxiety under control, I have accomplished more in these past two years than I have ever in my life. I went back to college, double majoring, making the dean’s list each semester. I am no longer afraid to talk to people, or go to class … I’ve made a whole new circle of friends, and each morning I am eager to wake up and achieve more.

What about long-term safety? I’ve done massive research, and read the available small-scale clinical trials. Usually you would find some negative side effects with prolonged use of a pharmaceutical; not phenibut, instead some studies have found positive long-term cognitive benefits, consistent with the monogram.**

Financial cost? Dirt cheap. I have done extensive shopping around over the past two years and by far, and Health Supplement Wholesalers the lowest rock bottom value … $150 for a kilogram, which would last me over a year and half. I can’t even get quality phenibut at that price buying wholesale from China. HealthSupplementWholesalers [dot] com

So yes, I take phebibut every single day. Just like millions of people worldwide take pharmaceutical drugs each and every day by recommendation from their physician, or for sustained medical treatment. I am only addicted to a cure that has empowered me to reach the horizons of my potential which were previously unfathomable. For some, the idea of relying on a pill for daily functioning would be unthinkable and a sign of dreaded addiction. Yet there is no issue with being dependent, if not addicted, to McDonnald jumbo meals, diabetes-infused pop soda, tanning beds and motor vehicles (responsible for thousands of fatalities per year) among other things we idolatrize daily that may carry even greater risks. Maybe substances like phenibut can empower us, just like other innovations, if we can shift our focus from their perils to their potential. Now, my optimism does not absolve the risk of the potentially long-term hazards of chronic phenibut use. I am just merely asserting that I have weighed the benefits and hazards of those risks, and have decided that for me personally … the benefits far outweigh the risks.

So, end of rant. Since the bulk of online posts about phenibut are cold-hard failure and withdrawal experiences, I'd just figured I'd share the flip side of the coin and throw in a sucess story. And again, allow me to disclaim: I do not advocate or promote the chronic use of phenibut, everyone is different. Taking phenibut as I did may turn out to be a catastrophic disaster for you. It really depends on your personality and discipline, of which you are advised to deeply assess before self-medicating in any way. Fair warning.

** I can't post links due to newbie status, but PM me if you want the link to to source.
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#2 Thorsten3

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 06:24 PM

What have the negatives been from daily, prolonged use? Every drug comes with its downsides. I always found that with anti-depressants they would rob me of something, so it came down to trade offs. Unfortunately, I have never come across one drug where those trade offs are worth it.

I know very little about phenibut. How long is its half life, and how does this affect your sleep? Do you conk out for the whole night? Is your sleep quality good?

I guess you might think that as you've been on it for two years, you might be home and dry now? It probably will eventually poop though, so I wouldn't expect it to last forever. You do occasionally hear of very long term success stories (5yrs +) from people who try certain drugs. I read one account of someone who had success with tianeptine for 7 years, but, one day, he woke up and it no longer worked. I have also read one or two accounts of people who have been on Valdoxan for 2 yrs +, but the stimulation suddenly dies and the drug poops. Also, there are quite a few long timers who have taken SSRIs on super long term periods (despite its shitty reputation, it still craps on the majority of other ADs). But, two years is definitely a brilliant period of success that you've had with it. Maybe it might last forever? Is there a degree of pleasure that you get from its effects? Generally, anything that feels good is an indicator that it's probably not the best idea to become too reliant on it. It might just come back and take a huge bite out of you.

Edited by Thorsten2, 06 March 2014 - 06:25 PM.


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#3 ericzx777

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 07:00 PM

What have the negatives been from daily, prolonged use?


Remarkably nothing. In fact, some days my usual 2g dose has more of an effect than usual, causing some fatigue/drowsyness, but nothing extreme.

Every drug comes with its downsides. I always found that with anti-depressants they would rob me of something, so it came down to trade offs. Unfortunately, I have never come across one drug where those trade offs are worth it.


Counterwise. I don't feel deprived in any area, rather more enriched ... both in my physical and mental health. For the first time I have found the motivation to keep a consistent and steady gym regimen. I have started working out (cardio/resistance) twice a week (since I started taking phenibut), became more conscious of my diet, lost interest in wasteful activities (TVs/video games) and I feel healthier than ever. As far as my mental health, I used to have ups/downs. Now I just have a consistent and steady mood, always positive. I'm thinking hard and long here, but looking back ... I can't identify an area where I have been deprived as a result of my prolonged phebibut use, remarkably.


I know very little about phenibut. How long is its half life, and how does this affect your sleep? Do you conk out for the whole night? Is your sleep quality good?


I buy bulk powder and escapsulate it. I take three-four (2g worth) once every morning, and I can feel it for the entire day. My sleep habits have improved. I used to pull all nighters frequently and sleep 5-6 hours a night, now I get a full 7-8 hours of rest and have never done an all-nigher since.


I guess you might think that as you've been on it for two years, you might be home and dry now?


Oddly, phenibut has worked the same as it has the first day I've tried it. I do not feel it loosing its effectiveness. It's a magic pill.



Maybe it might last forever? Is there a degree of pleasure that you get from its effects? Generally, anything that feels good is an indicator that it's probably not the best idea to become too reliant on it. It might just come back and take a huge bite out of you.

I hope so. But yes, I can't dismiss the possibility that one day it just stops working. I don't know when that day will come, but I'll keep taking it meanwhile.

#4 protoject

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 08:28 PM

Cool, awesome story. Wish I could say the same. I think it's awesome that you can use this therepeutically to enhance your life, and it's cool that with careful taper you are able to come off of it without apparent dysfunction beyond your regular anxiety. Am I right? . . . Would you mind doing an experiment and doing the same taper and then quitting for one month? I'll understand if you don't want to - Hell, I wouldn't want to go off my sleep meds for a month or I'd be fucked. (I wouldnt die, but it would just be a huge waste of time).

Reason I'm asking if you'll do it is because you say your anxiety came back with a vengeance. Which would imply it was worse than before. Yet if it was worse than before then you'd want to give quite a bit of time for your body to re-adapt to being drug-free. Then you could say whether your anxiety was worse or better by that point in order to prove a point about whether phenibut actually made your anxiety worse by not taking it anymore, or if you were practically the same. And sometimes you have to NOT be on the drug to make that judgement. (you know sometimes when you're medicated and you look at your non-medicated self a certain way, remember things a certain way, but you see it differently when you're non-medicated).

Anyway. I agree with you on a few points here. First of all slowly scaling upwards on the dosage. And second, slowly scaling downwards. Tapering down and up. I also agree that there may be a "ceiling" for some people where they don't have to increase the dosage anymore. Though I think people need to have a strong will regarding this. What if you continued to become tolerant? Would you have continued to increase the dosage? I think people should give their bodies time to adjust to a specific dosage even if it seems like a low dosage or if they feel they need more. And I think certain limits should be set. I also think that if the person has any tendency to use it "as needed" or "recreationally" that they should just quit while they're at it. Because let's say the person uses 10 g one day on the weekend to socialize.. this is obviously going to boost tolerance.

Recently I used etizolam for some mental problems I've been having. I wanted to experiment and see if I could reap therepeutic effects, and that whether I did or not, if I tapered down very slowly if I would do just fine. Luckily I had a lot of it on hand AND my dose was very easy to titrate with my dosing method (dissolved in polar solvent and used a dropper).... both factors of which are not covered when you go to the doc and ask for "30 x 1 mg pills" of something. He doesn't want to give you more than that, nor do you have the ability to cut doses down accurately (for example if you were taking 1 mg lorazepam a day and wanted to cut this by half 4 times but were only provided a 1 mg pill). Back to my point, I did taper downwards, and boy was it ever better than going cold turkey.

I can't reiterate how amazing titrating is. It's so much easier on the body than cold turkey. If anyone ever questions going cold turkey, just don't do it.. get the dose down super low first , successfully, and then jump off the wagon.




Don't worry though, we know lots of good phenibut sources. ;) ;)

on the flip side, if you like phenibut, you might also like baclofen and pregabalin.

edit: also if you do think about quitting for a month I think tapering even lower than 500 mg would be in order. Because if you could very smoothly come back down to being unmedicated, then you could even see if any anti anxiety benefits will have transferred into daily life, and also your anxiety , if present , will surely not have been a simple withdrawal reaction. Somehow I doubt it will have transferred into non-medicated life, but still, worth guinepigging for. I'd taper down by the 100 mg and then finally 50 mg if felt needed.

Also when you went back onto phenibut did you start up at 500 mg again?? ? or did you go up pretty fast

Edited by protoject, 06 March 2014 - 08:32 PM.


#5 bestbefore

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 08:39 AM

I don't think that you feel the dopamine effects anymore? I've been using Phenibut for almost 4 years I think, once a week mostly. And I felt the increase in empathy, motivation and mood only with once a week dosing. Now I can hardly feel it, but the anti-anxiety effect stays.

http://www.longecity...-with-phenibut/

It's great to hear another success story on Phenibut :)

As far as the negative effects go, If I use Phenibut more than two times a week, I can hardly go to sleep for one day.

Edited by bestbefore, 07 March 2014 - 08:41 AM.


#6 ericzx777

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 12:29 PM

I don't think that you feel the dopamine effects anymore?


That's a good question. You know, I've been taking it for so long that I forgot what that dopamine effect feels like (I know what you're talking about). Maybe I am feeling it, but since it's become daily, I don't realize its there ... but overall, I've had a consistent steady and positive mood ... so I guess it's still working.

Glad to you know you've had success with phenibut too!

#7 MangekyōPeter

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 12:35 PM

I've seen similar results with Phenibut as the OP.

Recently went through taking 2g's every 3 days, took 50g's like this in total (skipping 2 days between dosing).

And went I went off of it I didn't feel the withdrawals much at all. No insomnia or nuthin'.

It felt somewhat nootropic, and the fact that it alleviated anxiety to a certain level made it even more desirable for everyday tasks which could be performed better due to the diminished "stress".

#8 yborcity

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 12:28 PM

Hello, ,
I have been also experimenting phenibut for a month now and i can say that i built a little bit of tolerance to it, going from 500 gr to 2x 500 gr. taken in the morning.
As far as fitness and cardio is involved, phenibut makes me too drowsy to even imagine taking it before hitting the gym, i rather fee like sleeping while on it.
Have you tried other anti anxiety stuff such as l theanine or picamilon ( much less potent imo)?
Do you stack phenibut w/ other substances?

regards,

#9 8bitmore

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 08:07 PM

Hello, ,
I have been also experimenting phenibut for a month now and i can say that i built a little bit of tolerance to it, going from 500 gr to 2x 500 gr. taken in the morning.
As far as fitness and cardio is involved, phenibut makes me too drowsy to even imagine taking it before hitting the gym, i rather fee like sleeping while on it.
Have you tried other anti anxiety stuff such as l theanine or picamilon ( much less potent imo)?
Do you stack phenibut w/ other substances?

regards,


That would be 500mg, unless you're the first blue whale to frequent this forum ;)

Edited by 8bitmore, 21 March 2014 - 08:12 PM.

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#10 jurassic

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 10:01 PM

I have been having consistent benefits from occasional phenibut use. never tried taking it for the long run continuously, due to reports of withdrawal and tolerance problems. my use is once or twice a week, mostly recreational, meaning i take it before i go socializing, not work-related. have found it to benefit social interaction greatly, removing anxiety, making me more talkative, open, quicker in dialogues. i believe it gives me some degree of clearer thinking, but i wouldn't say it makes me smarter in any way, just maybe free of insecurity when i talk to people, so it is easier. in doses 3-4 grams it has euphoric and mood-enhancing properties as well as empathogenic ones. ofc, this can be abused, as any drug having these properties could.

having said that, i believe this is such a great drug for many situations and different conditions. it has great anti-anxiety, anti-depressive and sleep inducing (and quality improving) properties. i take it with energy drink in order to stay fully awake and in good mood. once i go to sleep, the sleep is deep, sound. usually, second day after taking this kind of (i admit, large) dose, i feel sleepy, and another phase of afternoon sleep usually feels like heaven :)

i think it's safe, never had any side effects this way.

i had some very positive reports on this from my friends, same as above described, although, some said they felt nothing from it. very easily could be individual differences to some degree, but also it might be due to some other factors, depending on the setting. in my experience, setting is always the most important factor when discussing any mood changing drug, so reports can vary quite a bit, doesn't mean they are false. :)

#11 adamh

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 09:31 PM

Its a slippery slope much the same with benzos or heroin. Many people think they can control their benzo or heroin use but most can not. They may control it for a period of time, maybe even a long time but sooner or later it becomes the default option for stress, anger, insomnia, etc. Been there and done that with benzos. I do have both phenibut and some left over benzos on hand but I very rarely take the phenibut and haven't taken a benzo in nearly a year. I consider weekly use of phenibut let alone twice a week, to be the basis of a habit. I took benzos only twice a week and didn't realize I was hooked until I tried to quit. I did quit but it was much much harder than I anticipated.

#12 nootropicsandsarms

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 01:09 PM

sounds great,but phenibut not popular as other nootropics

#13 Unistasis

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 04:14 PM

This is one of those registrations done mostly for replying to a specific thread or topic.

 

I know what Longecity is about in general, and I've been on my way, sporadically researching vitamins, minerals, the endocannabinoid system,

to my cognitive ability's limit.

 

In any case, I would like to make the point that addiction is Cultural, and in any situation, we are all dependent on somethings, like water and air.

 

Our world have become more complex, and I regard the tendency of addiction to benzos as rather a GABA deficiency or abnormality, rather than some psychological

or biochemical process.

 

What I mean by this, is that benzodiazepines are able to regulate gaba receptors towards a more homeostatic tendency, depending on dose, and thus more or less corrects the

gaba defect or deficiency.

 

I know its more complex than that, but from my experience, you need both worlds, School medicine and alternative medicine.

 

While the School medicinal drugs tend to be simple, primal on/off switches, With novel molecules, alternative medicine tends to treat hollistically.

 

For me, its all about what you need at any given time, With physical or psychological progress, to either utilize something that treats part of the system or something that treats the Whole system.

 

I suffer from ADHD/autism Spectrum, and I know I have a gaba/glutamate problem, but the only way for me to treat this in a "Natural" way, is by using vitamin B3 or niacin or niacinamide, which has effect upon gaba receptors, you can Google it, because i cant provide links in this post, since its my first.

 

But i encounter a lot of problems taking b3. I have this tendency of getting oversaturated in the brain With B-vitamins, and for b3 to regulate the receptors like diazepam, id have to take grams of it, and i cant handle much more than a couple of hundred milligrams.

 

Now, in my confusion, i'm going to get Down to brass tacks;  (auto-correction Windows 8 lol),

 

I understand you might start to lack in cofactors With the use of diazepam or phenibut, but sometimes you got to take the good With the bad, and its no difference if its allowing some liver damage from a pharmacutical that gives you a tremendous psychological and social benefits.

 

And I would rather have 2 years going super great With phenibut than two years os anxiety and stagnation. I know With phenibut and other nootropics and medicine in general, you start to lack co-factors for Things to work, and that is also my theory when it comes to pharmacuticals, as well as normal vitamins and minerals.

 

I know i have such tremendous effect from diazepam, and i respect the addiction, but without it, all my life, ive been tired and too exited, all the time. Id love to fix it more hollistically, but at the time there are too many blockades.

 

The doors and keys are universal, we just tend to judge too much in regards to history and culture.

 

You could say that in the same way we dug out and found, whatever, chlorella, to be a useful nutrient, the same way we are digging for novel Chemicals in molecular biology. some of nature is beneficial to us, some of it is poison. we just have to learn what does what and Experiment; thats the only way to progress.

 

I havent yet tried phenibut, but i look forward to trying it out.

 

would you People have any experience With it versus diazepam?

 

 


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#14 Duchykins

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 04:41 PM

I just wanted to add that the OP said antidepressants were meant to be taken for a very long time, he insinuated indefinitely-- this is not true. They were created of a mind of using them anywhere from 3 months to 9 months, maybe a year. Those medications were intended for use to help a patient make lifestyle changes and/or better respond to therapy, and then when the changes have been made and the patient is stable, they should be tapered down. Ideally the therapy and life/diet changes should have provided the patient with the real tools for maintaining their psychological health. The is little evidence that these drugs do more good than harm with years long use and a great deal of evidence that they do more harm than good in the same amount of time.

This is not to say that phenibut does more harm than good with years long use. I just dislike the idea that it's okay, even healthy, to be on antidepressants indefinitely as if you will never be 'cured'.
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#15 Unistasis

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 07:12 PM

Well, I am not sure that I would subscribe to the idea that there has to be an underlying psychological reason for using SSRI, benzos or phenibut, for that matter.

 

I agree, it can be of help to easier revisit psychological obstacles, that's also how I understand MDMA's use in post traumatic stress syndrome, but for some People,

including myself, therapy has never really worked optimally, and With my experiementing and experience in using vitamins and minerals, it's my opinion that some

Things that are deemed psychological, really are physiological in their origin. I know this Works both ways, but a gaba defect is a gaba defect, no matter how much therapy you get.

Casual psychotherapy might help you handle Your anxiety better, but in some cases its better to treat the root of the problem.

 

Of course, hypothetically, if you were a master meditator, you could perhaps Access and fix Your neuronal problems, but sometimes its a question of the most efficient route.

 

It's "common" knowledge that  the biochemical nature of humans have become more abnormal because of enviromental toxins, etc, that cause hormonal,  neural changes on a molecular Level.

thus you can have abnormalities and defects on a molecular Level, and thus you have to Counter these abnormalites With the same measures.

 

The same way as we are dependent on water, some People might be dependent on extra nutrients or medicines or molecules to be more balanced.

 

I believe the endocannabinoid system will allow us for more reparation on a cellular and molecular Level, sometime in the future, when we understand it's processes better.

 

Until then, I am all for using whatever you need With as much caution as you are able to apply to any specific situation. There is no key to nature.

 



#16 Duchykins

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 08:06 PM

Well, I am not sure that I would subscribe to the idea that there has to be an underlying psychological reason for using SSRI, benzos or phenibut, for that matter.
 
I agree, it can be of help to easier revisit psychological obstacles, that's also how I understand MDMA's use in post traumatic stress syndrome, but for some People,
including myself, therapy has never really worked optimally, and With my experiementing and experience in using vitamins and minerals, it's my opinion that some
Things that are deemed psychological, really are physiological in their origin. I know this Works both ways, kobut a gaba defect is a gaba defect, no matter how much therapy you get.
Casual psychotherapy might help you handle Your anxiety better, but in some cases its better to treat the root of the problem.
 
Of course, hypothetically, if you were a master meditator, you could perhaps Access and fix Your neuronal problems, but sometimes its a question of the most efficient route.
 
It's "common" knowledge that  the biochemical nature of humans have become more abnormal because of enviromental toxins, etc, that cause hormonal,  neural changes on a molecular Level.
thus you can have abnormalities and defects on a molecular Level, and thus you have to Counter these abnormalites With the same measures.
 
The same way as we are dependent on water, some People might be dependent on extra nutrients or medicines or molecules to be more balanced.
 
I believe the endocannabinoid system will allow us for more reparation on a cellular and molecular Level, sometime in the future, when we understand it's processes better.
 
Until then, I am all for using whatever you need With as much caution as you are able to apply to any specific situation. There is no key to nature.
 

You focused too much on therapy and not enough on diet and lifestyle. I agree that therapy can be even useless if there is an imbalance of neurotransmitters and nutrients. It has even been suggested in a few studies that therapy can leave people worse off by encouraging people to dwell on their problems and negative past events. Antidepressants don't fix imbalances, they are a temporary bandaid to be used to help someone get up and be motivated to make real changes in how they eat and live their lives, which would include nutritional supplements. If you don't have enough serotonin or dopamine or GABA, then it's part of your job in getting well to begin exploring WHY you don't have enough of one chemical or too much of another and do your best to make a more permanent and lasting fix of it. If people on antidepressants can't be bothered to do that then their antidepressants aren't really helping them.

Edited by Duchykins, 14 May 2014 - 08:07 PM.


#17 Unistasis

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 08:21 PM

Well, i totally agree With you here. But it's a complex Journey, at least in my experience and it seems other share my opinions as well.

 

I am looking into why my gaba receptors arent working well, and without going too much into specifics, there seem to be a glutamate/gaba abnormality within the autism Spectre.

 

I had hopes for niacinamide, but there is some excitatory problems with it i cant resolve at this moment, but long term, i would like to have it operating as normally as i can,

but i would also propose that there are limits to reparing pathways and abnormalities with only nutrition or supplements.

 

In my experience with cannabis as medicine, especially with the the undecarboxylated acid forms of the cannabinoids,

 

they seem to be able to do a lot of regulatory work that supplements cant do on their own.

 

I know I am speculating as well but its interesting to share opinions.

 

My simple theory which so far tend to Mirror some of the science done on cannabinoids, and other anecdotal evidence,

 

is that, simply put,

 

nutrients has the ability to change content

the endocannabinoid system has the ability to change form

 

You cant have one without the other, and soon these two worlds will come together.

 

There is a huge potential in cannabis as medicine.

 

We just need the right nutrients to operate its regulatory processes.

 


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#18 Duchykins

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:31 PM

I agree and I'm on this journey myself. I've managed to pinpoint a problem I have with clearing glutamate, probably genetic because stuff like this runs in my family, which leaves me prone to migraines, insomnia, elevated histamine with autistic and attention deficit behaviors. The only plus, and a meager plus at that, is an elevated IQ with emphasis on spatial reasoning which is also a familial trait. I learned a few months ago that I don't have a real problem with serotonin, mine is dopamine and GABA, methylation, and a trip to the ER a few nights ago uncovered a state of low potassium that's been going on for more than a year now, long before beginning the last round of antidepressants (wellbutrin, amitriptyline) and before supplementing. If I had just stuck with the Rxs and a multivitamin then I never would have learned these things. I'm lucky enough to have figured out a way to take myself off of everything cold turkey including ambien (fingers crossed with the ambien since it's only been three days but the worst of the withdrawals would have happened by now) so the only Rx I probably will need for the rest of my life is sumatriptan. I'm okay with that.

One of the things I tried was niacin, the amide and then nicotinic acid. They of course helped with GABA but unfortuantely increased histamine, an excitatory neurotransmitter. This may be something you would want to explore if you're having similar troubles. There is a link between autism and high histamine

#19 Unistasis

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:53 PM

Very interesting. I mean, Things are so complex, and without proper Diagnostics, lack of sufficient funds, and a generaly reduced mental state, makes it a hellish Matrix to be in, With all these problems

that come along With these abnormalities. I randomly came across klinghardt's hpu protocol, which i halfways had experimented myself towards, i was only lacking the enormous amounts of zinc,

but it has been very life changing for me in many ways. you can Google "klinghardt hpu pdf" and there it states that hpu sufferers tend to have low histamine, and also, when i recently tried valergan, which is

an anti-histamine, i almost went psychotic.

 

but again, there is something about b3 and other B-vitamins that seem to have some excitatory effects, i also get migranes, and insomina from B-vitamins, i know they create energy, but especially niacinamide i was thought to have some calming effect. I do feel better when using niacinamide but in no way can i use as much as schizophrenia sufferers take, like grams Worth. it wont do. I also have problems With e.g. lithium orotate vs aspartate, the latter makes me more nervous and definitely has exitatory effects on me, ive had to go hard on magnesium today, because of running out of lithium orotate. it usually helps me a great deal in regards to worrysome thoughtpatterns and nervousness in general. but now this aspartate has got me way too stimulated.

 

I would really like to find something one day that has the same effects as diazepam, it helps me tremendously calming Down the exitatory shit that leads to insomnia, restlessness and generally proper Lack of recovery.

but i respect the addiction problem and know i will take a risk starting With phenibut, but my situation is fucked in so many ways, and sometimes you have to try and do whatever you can, even if it means risking a lot.

 

i also think my problems are With dopamine and gaba, but i Guess its a long and complex way to untie the knot of whatever is going on in my head.

 

perhaps its also related somewhat to my problems With mold exposure, im highly sensitive to mold now and especially after my exposure i couldnt really take some vitamins like before, like the b-Group, without getting too "saturated" in the head, aka leading to migranes. it feels like there is some exitotoxic shit going on, but its hard to specify it.

but one thing i have learned along my way, is to try and trust yourself and Your own experiences.

 

i dont really use any antidepressants or any other rx's. especially lots and lots of magnesium, some manganese and lithium has helped me tremendously.

 

but i am not looking forward to weeks without lithium orotate, so wish me Luck, lol.

 

I am also trying as well as i can to look into glutamate these days, how has that worked out for you? I really need to do a lot of work, but im looking into reducing glutamate and try going a little bit bulletproof diet'ish, which can help With mold and mycotoxins as well.

 

I wish to god i had cancer instead of mold living inside me, you wont believe how problematic it is before you experience it yourself, but thats a discussion for another day.

kind of going half personal here, but who cares, its midnight in norway and im at an institution, homeless, very little cash and a hell of a scenario to get out of.

 

 



#20 Duchykins

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:36 PM

I don't even try to avoid glutamate anymore like I used to, I see glutamate as more friend than enemy. I even went out and got some glutamine to try, which surprisingly did not increase migraines when taken with the rest of the stuff I take to prevent migraines. I actually felt better with small glutamine doses. Aspartic acid is my enemy though, it and all its related chemicals like (aspartate) which act as excitors at glutamate receptors. One of the things I focus on is helping my body regulate and clear glutamate. This means stuff like lysine, taurine, calcium, magnesium, schizandrol a, theanine, creatine, coQ10, zinc, potassium (I wasn't taking enough before), B vitamins, D3, beta alanine, sometimes methionine, low dose citicoline, most recently 15% l-dopa mucuna proved to be for me probably the most useful and important nonvitamin nonmineral I've ever tried. There is a significant interrelationship between dopamine and glutamate, as there is, better known, with GABA and glutamate. With migraines, there is also a little known issue with maintaining energy levels within the brain, because when energy gets low it triggers some events in the brain leading to migraine symptoms. Norepinephrine probably has a role in migraine prevention, I haven't fully explored this yet, I only know that the first three months of wellbutrin I only refilled my sumatripan prescription one time, whereas before I was always running out of my monthly supply before I could get the next. Migraine attacks decreased further when I took ginko for a trial run, and gingko is a mild NRE (also modulates GABA). I ended up stopping gingko because it was increasing my vigilance and irritability, but now that I'm no longer on wellbutrin I may consider trying gingko again. Maybe.

I did have some trouble with B complexes for a time. I had to ditch complexes altogether and go with the individual Bs I was certain I needed until I could figure it out. For me it turned out that I needed only minimal doses of folic acid, niacin, B12, but much higher doses of others like pyridoxine, riboflavin, thiamine and pantothenic acid. I settled on a B-50 and no problem so far. Sometimes I only take half or skip it in favor of just those four. I really just use it intermittently so that I don't throw my Bs out of whack by just taking isolated Bs for a long time.

I haven't tried phenibut yet. I may not ever, as long as my current supps keep up the good work I have no reason to add more. I did get a few grams of picamilon to try, to take for sleeping. I haven't really taken it regularly enough to make useful comments about it other than the times I did take it, at low doses, it was helpful in going to sleep. My fear of benzos keeps stopping me from taking that further, lol. Lysine, taurine and theanine are the must-haves for my GABA and these are what enabled me to stop ambien without losing sleep. These have greatly improved the quality of my sleep, something that couldn't be said for ambien alone. Frequent players but not must-haves are bacopa (bedtime) and ashwagandha (morning).

#21 Unistasis

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 06:32 PM

If i was only more congnitively available...

 

In any case, its very interesting, I just discovered how much zinc also Plays a role in my sleeping abilities. I've done acetyl-l-carnitine With good results and hope to look more into amino acids in the future,

but right now my brain is so toxic, and i cant really detox in my situation, and if i go Ahead now With e.g. alcar, id have to take a lot of co-factors. I really need to get me some modified citrus pectin or chlorella.

havent tested out the latter, but i think i will go for mcp first round.

 

have you any experience With l-theanine? I might test that out before i go on With phenibut, just to see the reaction.

 

would also like to note that i once tried l-glutamine from now Foods, but perhaps the dose was a bit large, 1000 mg, but in any case it left me very nervous and i couldnt really sleep for two days. mind you, this was back in 2011, fast forward to 2014, im probably 30% percent worse, healthwise now.

 

the only thing that really have helped me significantly is cannabis in conjunction With nutrition. i have an intution about the endocannabinoid system being able to "correct" the brain, if you use it the right way.

 

 


Edited by Unistasis, 15 May 2014 - 07:20 PM.


#22 adamh

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 08:52 PM

Unistasis, I would caution you not to discontinue diazepam abruptly in case you were thinking of doing that. Withdrawals on it are horrendous if done cold turkey. If you have good results on another compound, gradually bring it in and very gradually taper off the benzo. It takes months, sometimes years to get off them but it can be done with little side effects. Look into the ashton method.

 

You said something about zinc being involved with your insomnia, is that in a helpful or negative way? More zinc helping or not helping? I take l glutamine every day at about 20gm per day. No, that is not a typo, 20gm per day for neuropathic pain. It works great for that.



#23 Duchykins

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 10:10 PM

I honestly don't believe the cannabis is helping you. In fact it is probably hurting you by causing or exacerbating anxiety if you've been using it regularly for so long. Cannabis does have some therapeutic long term use in physical illness and pain management, but virtually NONE in cognitive or psychiatric problems that couldn't be accomplished with other GABAergics -- and with many of the same side effects as other GABAergics. It really isn't that special when you compare it to other herbs, and when you do compare, you find that many are better than cannabis simply because they don't compromise your memory or cognitive function.

#24 Unistasis

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 10:17 PM

thats the Clue, ive really never had any withdrawal problems With diazepam, but then again ive never used it for prolonged periods.

i have usually gotten a pack of 30 to 50 pills when i go on holiday for flight anxiety, so i Guess my gaba receptors havent been really messed up.

but i can say, when ive used it, ive used a lot, like i could easily take 10 x 10 mg diazepam and still be on my feet. ADHD.

 

but, after ive started especially With magnesium, manganese and lithium, ive needed much less diazepam when i first use it.

 

i would never be without those minerals.

 

i understand that gabareceptors and other receptors might get downregulated or regulated abnormally, but i think there is a lot of psychological problems regarding phenibut.

firstly, People use it as a drug it seems, in way too high doses. i know that feel cause i tend to go overboard With diazepam myself, but ive never felt strong addiction to it,

even if id like to have my gaba receptors stimulated like that more of the time. i dont need to be drugged, just fucking normally regulated.

 

With my Experiments and experience, i feel i have somewhat the ability to know when my body is drugged,

as i define a rus/high/drugged as a system in overdrive, and With many substances, from diazepam to minerals, you tend to feel when you're overboard.

 

i know it goes both ways With psychology and physiology, that in one way you might have an abnormality in Your system that results in anxiety, paranoia, etc

but i suppose the same system can be manipulated to experience e.g. less anxiety or paranoia when you would actually need it, like situations of danger, etc.

 

in any case, i feel in some cases i know when im drugged or over the limit, and for me, and many others, we are under-drugged in today's society.

 

regardless of how much you fuck With Your receptors With diazepam or phenibut or some other substance for some other neurotransmitters or whatever,

if you're able to manage the drug and have tremendous benefits, both socially and intellectually, i see no reason for not using it.

 

my philosophy to life that there exists no key, we can do whatever we want. there is no other normal than what we define, even though normality and abnormality exists in the world,

and whence too abnormal, we tend to strive against the normal, or optimality.

first you build a cup, then you fill it up.

 

lol.

 

i am not myself, my posts are very poorly constructed, i lack the energy, and the lack of litihum makes me more confused and insecure, but i hope my meaning shines through.

 

loss of memory too, though.



#25 Unistasis

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 10:22 PM

I honestly don't believe the cannabis is helping you. In fact it is probably hurting you by causing or exacerbating anxiety if you've been using it regularly for so long. Cannabis does have some therapeutic long term use in physical illness and pain management, but virtually NONE in cognitive or psychiatric problems that couldn't be accomplished with other GABAergics -- and with many of the same side effects as other GABAergics. It really isn't that special when you compare it to other herbs, and when you do compare, you find that many are better than cannabis simply because they don't compromise your memory or cognitive function.

 

i can understand you see it that way. id urge you to investigate the endocannabinoid system a little bit first. take a look at the studies done in regards to autism, fragile x syndrome, etc. understand the complexity and the simplicity of the system. its basic regulatory actions. the endocannabinoid receptors in almost all the human cells. the combination With this knowledge and the knowledge of nutrition is the next step.

 

but i cant really convince you before you try it youself in conjunction with nutrition.

 

the Balance or the profile of the cannabinoids is important too.

 

and id suggest the most optimal form of use is a combination of the decarboxylated active form and the acid inactive form.

 

i understand the scepsism with cannabis, its still very controversial in many ways, but its about right use.

 

its a great tool, like a pen. you can Write a lot of Nice shit with a pen, but i can still use it to puncture Your eye.

 

use and misuse.

 

lack of information leads to misuse.

 

lack of information comes from Cultural and historical and political dogma.



#26 Unistasis

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 10:29 PM

Unistasis, I would caution you not to discontinue diazepam abruptly in case you were thinking of doing that. Withdrawals on it are horrendous if done cold turkey. If you have good results on another compound, gradually bring it in and very gradually taper off the benzo. It takes months, sometimes years to get off them but it can be done with little side effects. Look into the ashton method.

 

You said something about zinc being involved with your insomnia, is that in a helpful or negative way? More zinc helping or not helping? I take l glutamine every day at about 20gm per day. No, that is not a typo, 20gm per day for neuropathic pain. It works great for that.

 

zinc for the help of sleeping. without it im not getting any kind of deep sleep, just the shallow surface type of sleep. and i need like two hours to get to sleep again if im awoken, versus saturated with zinc, i can fall asleep easy.

 

i didnt really understand this before i went out of zinc just recently. there are a lot of other factors as well i notice, like increased sensitivity, muscle weakness, more itchy. zinc is involved in a lot of shit, aka over 200 enzymatic processes, and since i probably have HPU aka cryptopolyurria or something like that, i pee out a lot of zinc and b6 plus some other minerals and vitamins, but basically zinc and b6, and i can take 500 mg zinc per day, yes you read right, 500 mg zinc. i Guess you have experienced the same. deficiency is deficiency. if Your body loses or burns vitamins, minerals, amino acids or other types of nutrition at a very fast rate, i see no problem with supplementing more if you're able. i know i burn magnesium like a motherfucker, due to its function as binder as well.



#27 Duchykins

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 04:17 AM

 

I honestly don't believe the cannabis is helping you. In fact it is probably hurting you by causing or exacerbating anxiety if you've been using it regularly for so long. Cannabis does have some therapeutic long term use in physical illness and pain management, but virtually NONE in cognitive or psychiatric problems that couldn't be accomplished with other GABAergics -- and with many of the same side effects as other GABAergics. It really isn't that special when you compare it to other herbs, and when you do compare, you find that many are better than cannabis simply because they don't compromise your memory or cognitive function.

 

i can understand you see it that way. id urge you to investigate the endocannabinoid system a little bit first. take a look at the studies done in regards to autism, fragile x syndrome, etc. understand the complexity and the simplicity of the system. its basic regulatory actions. the endocannabinoid receptors in almost all the human cells. the combination With this knowledge and the knowledge of nutrition is the next step.

 

but i cant really convince you before you try it youself in conjunction with nutrition.

 

the Balance or the profile of the cannabinoids is important too.

 

and id suggest the most optimal form of use is a combination of the decarboxylated active form and the acid inactive form.

 

i understand the scepsism with cannabis, its still very controversial in many ways, but its about right use.

 

its a great tool, like a pen. you can Write a lot of Nice shit with a pen, but i can still use it to puncture Your eye.

 

use and misuse.

 

lack of information leads to misuse.

 

lack of information comes from Cultural and historical and political dogma.

 

 

I didn't come to that conclusion on a whim.  I used to think pot was harmless, even married a pothead, but ten years later and lots of reading about a growing body of evidence of the adverse effects have changed my mind in ways that cannot be undone.  I  can't unlearn what I know now.



#28 Unistasis

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 11:56 AM

 

 

I honestly don't believe the cannabis is helping you. In fact it is probably hurting you by causing or exacerbating anxiety if you've been using it regularly for so long. Cannabis does have some therapeutic long term use in physical illness and pain management, but virtually NONE in cognitive or psychiatric problems that couldn't be accomplished with other GABAergics -- and with many of the same side effects as other GABAergics. It really isn't that special when you compare it to other herbs, and when you do compare, you find that many are better than cannabis simply because they don't compromise your memory or cognitive function.

 

i can understand you see it that way. id urge you to investigate the endocannabinoid system a little bit first. take a look at the studies done in regards to autism, fragile x syndrome, etc. understand the complexity and the simplicity of the system. its basic regulatory actions. the endocannabinoid receptors in almost all the human cells. the combination With this knowledge and the knowledge of nutrition is the next step.

 

but i cant really convince you before you try it youself in conjunction with nutrition.

 

the Balance or the profile of the cannabinoids is important too.

 

and id suggest the most optimal form of use is a combination of the decarboxylated active form and the acid inactive form.

 

i understand the scepsism with cannabis, its still very controversial in many ways, but its about right use.

 

its a great tool, like a pen. you can Write a lot of Nice shit with a pen, but i can still use it to puncture Your eye.

 

use and misuse.

 

lack of information leads to misuse.

 

lack of information comes from Cultural and historical and political dogma.

 

 

I didn't come to that conclusion on a whim.  I used to think pot was harmless, even married a pothead, but ten years later and lots of reading about a growing body of evidence of the adverse effects have changed my mind in ways that cannot be undone.  I  can't unlearn what I know now.

 

 

 

I can understand that, and I truly believe that you can do a lot of damage if you're unlucky or don't know what you're doing. But despite your experiences, there are a lot of science and anecdotal evidence that shows positive results, and helping People getting well or better.

 

 



#29 ericzx777

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 12:47 PM

I just wanted to add that the OP said antidepressants were meant to be taken for a very long time, he insinuated indefinitely-- this is not true. They were created of a mind of using them anywhere from 3 months to 9 months, maybe a year. Those medications were intended for use to help a patient make lifestyle changes and/or better respond to therapy, and then when the changes have been made and the patient is stable, they should be tapered down. Ideally the therapy and life/diet changes should have provided the patient with the real tools for maintaining their psychological health. The is little evidence that these drugs do more good than harm with years long use and a great deal of evidence that they do more harm than good in the same amount of time.

This is not to say that phenibut does more harm than good with years long use. I just dislike the idea that it's okay, even healthy, to be on antidepressants indefinitely as if you will never be 'cured'.

 

This is very true. Yes, I did not mean to imply these drugs are to be taken indefinitely. Tending towards a drug-free natural equilibrium should be the goal. But sometimes we can't find that equilibrium, find ourselves, or understand what we are capable of. And so, drugs are a vehicle of self-discovery.

 

In this case, phenibut has allowed me to feel like a normal human being. I have always sucked at math and hated school ... but after taking phenibut for the past two years, I've found the motivation to wake up every day at 6AM and achieve and excel. So much so, that I've taken three very rigorous proof-based courses at my University and an advanced regression analysis course. I had earned straight A's and just found out that I was ranked first in my class in two of those classes out of over two hundred students in each class.

 

This is coming from someone who had failed Algebra and Precalc twice in high school. But after taking this amazing substance, I was able to put in over eight hours of work each day for six-months brushing up on basic math, and then the same over the next six months in advanced math ... going from ground zero to the zenith of skill in just over a year. Not only that, but I had enjoyed every moment of studying those eight hours each day. This was an effortless feat, phenibut makes me love math; something ridiculously unfathomable.

 

Henry Ford was right, if you believe you can do a thing or can't, you're right. It's all an illusion, and it's all in your head. Everyone has the ability to achieve great things. Drugs are a key, that if used properly, can open big doors. You just have to find the right drug, and most importantly, open the right door. They can destroy lives, but they can also equally empower us.

 

 

But in the future (I'm talking like 5-10 years from now) I do intend to being a long-winded tapering down. I can't take phenibut forever until I'm like 60 years old.


Edited by ericzx777, 16 May 2014 - 12:56 PM.


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#30 Duchykins

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 03:38 PM

I'm very glad you've done so well. I really wish I had known about these supplements when I was in college. I had to take tests separately by myself because I had such a difficult time discriminating background noise that the tiny sounds all the other students made were ennervating, distracting and made me want to crawl out of my skin. Several times in a psych class I nearly had a full panic attack when the professor had everyone form groups and begin discussing something, the whole classroom seemed to explode with noise, I had to leave right away. After the third time I never went back. The campus doctor kept trying to give me ativan but I hate anything that compromises my ability to think straight and refused all benzos. I only allowed myself to have ambien and that wasn't something you could take and then go to class. I ended up stopping school altogether because I didn't want to risk losing my GPA (4.0) over my stupid hypervigilance. If only I had theanine or picamilon at the time! I really think I could go back to school now. So I completely understand where you come from.

I can't agree with you about math, though. I love algebra. To me it's like playing sudoku, only easier. :)





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