I do not know how to use the quote function so any assistance would be appreciated. For now I will try and answer questions directed at me.
Infy: I am a vegetarian for reasons that I believe are morally sound. I try my best to minimise the suffering that goes on around me. As a part of this I choose not to eat animals and in doing so hope to minimise the pain and suffering that animals experiance as a result. There are contradictions in this argument because I wear leather. I enjoy dressing in fetish with lots of leather and metal and this contradicts my beleifs. This goes back to what I said above "I try" my best to minimise suffering but in most situations, not hard enough. I do not push my beliefs onto people as these are my beliefs and my reality.
I really really hate having to answer that question becasue from my experiance people become so defensive and often aggressive with their responses. These are my choices.
Jaydfox: You consider cows to be closest to humans in degree of "Consciousness".
For me it about consciousness it about suffering. If an animal can feel it can suffer. By putting consciousness on a scale you set up a heirachy. A heirachy that results in, IMO, speciesism. What characetristics of a cows consciousness makes it less deserving of pain and suffering. In that case, what characetristic of a human gives us more right to a pain free existance when compared to any other sentient being? I can though understand where you are coming from though, it just seems to be a pretty loose argument for giving up cows first.
And you dont even rate the fish "conciousness" anywhere near that of a mammals "consciousness". Why?
IMO, setting up a heirachy in regards to consciousness does not do anything apart from give some people the right to judge what or who deserves more. In my eyes we are all equal.
Jaydfox: Re. labels and cannibals.....If someone's a cannibal is that just a label? Yes. A label. This does not define the person or the so-called "cannibal" You and most people would jusdge cannibals as morally wrong and I would also judge the eating of humans, as I do with animals, as morally wrong but I would not let that prevent me getting to know "the cannibal". However I would be a little more weary than usual to avoid getting eaten. My whole point about the "label" is that it does not define the person. So just because someone eats meat, I will not hold this against them. It is just one part of who they are. To hold that against them would be judgemental. Some people have heard that I am vegetarian and assume their stereotypical views of who I am as a "vegetarian". I am more than just a vegetarian.
Quote: (jaydfox) Yeah I eat meat. Big deal! It's just meat. But I know, I'm at least aware, that I'm adding to the slaughter, and I'm willing to take the moral responsibility for causing the deaths. If you can't take moral responsibility, then you deserve to be labelled, and it's not just a "fucking label", it's a well-earned label for your ignornace.
Then you speak about elrond Quote: (jaydfox) "as for people like Elrond, who hunt, he is at least aware of his moral responsibility. he chooses a different stance on the moral implication of killing an animal, and I respect him for that, because at least he's not ignoring the issue and saying "Big deal" "
So, on one hand you are saying that you are willing to take moral responsibility for causing the deaths and those who do no not take "Moral" responsibility deserve to be labelled for their ignornace.
First of all, why do you think you have the right to define what is morally responsibile? Secondly, who gave you the right to label other people as ignorant? What you beleive is morally right is your reality. This may not be others reality
So first you condemn people for not being what you define as "morally responsible" and believe you have the right to label someone as ignorant and then you go and respect elrond for taking a different stance on what is morally responsible!. Then why dont you respect other peoples different stances rather than labelling them as ignornat. Do you think elrond is ignornant?
I think you may have missed my whole point about labelling. It is just a label and does not define the person. IMO, if we could look past the labels society would be a better place to live in with less segregation of class and race.
scottl: The way you point out how some people do well on particular diets of high protein and so on....if the way I look at my choices for being a vegetarian. It a choice I made that makes me feel better about who I am.
Osiris: re. the wording of the poll....I agree the defenitions could have been worded differently but hey.....
Also, re. the sacrifice that animals make being a selfish one, I disagree because of my own beliefs in this situation. Once again, I am not saying I am right or that you are wrong I am just sharing my stance on the situation. I conduct my experiments to increase the quality of life for thos e around me. By taining and supplementing my aged subjects I have seen their quality of life increase dramatically. I want to help people increase their quality of life and this goes back to the reasons that I am vegetarian. I try my best to minimize the suffering and pain around me. Suffering is a part of life, I accept that, but there are also things you can do to minimise the pain.
Elrond, Thanks for answering my question regarding why do you hunt. Cheers matey
The philosphical debate about "is it ok to eat meat" is a long standing one. It has valid arguments on both sides.
IMO, it all comes down to choice. You cannot choose what is morally right or wrong in this situation for anyone but you can certyainly argue it. My beef, pun intended, with people being asked if they are meat eaters or vegetrians or whatever they do, is the judgement that comes with that question. It is no different than someone asking how old you are. What will someone get from knowing how old you are? Same goes for being a vego or meat eater, what can someone gain from knowing you are a meat eater or not. Not much actually. However in both situations, answers to these questions bring about philosphical discussions that help people understand the situation from another persons stand-point. If this is done with an open mind and people's views or options are not pushed to hard onto one another, then it is just another fanatastic opportunity to live and learn.
I apologise if offense was taken by any of my words. Offending people is not my intention