15 replies to this topic

[eclypz]

Anyone can feel free to respond and to be fair some of the people at avant have discussed this with me and cortisol is about as close a causative factor as anything, but something has been bothering me alot lately and I'm wondering if lifeMirage would have an answer. Smoking pot used to be a pleasant experience for me, quite a rush indeed. Now all it seems to do is make me edgy, paranoid, even a bit delusional(I start thinking everyone thinks I'm making an ass of myself, essentially).

I'm wondering what has caused this. Is it an imbalance of serotonin etc or is it a cortisol thing or what in the heck is it? As much as I'd like to be able to enjoy being high again it would mean more to me just to simply know what has taken place in my mind that prevents it, just for everyday knowledge of my own brain chemistry.

Any takers? Anyone else experience this?

[scottl]

Eclypz,

No Clue, but one thought. A number of people found the book the edge effect a useful pointer to...which of their neurotransmitters is most depleted (see the avant thread or PM Benson). Perhaps that would give you a start towards....repairing whatever has shfited.

[jubai]

Well I like marijuana too

The first thing is to take a break, tolerance builds up to pot unfortunately.

The 2nd thing is to take sufficient choline, as pot uses it.

As for anxiety, I don't know, but I have known some people who developped this effect after a while :(

Good luck

[Karomesis]

eclypz, differing strains of cannabis have altogether different effects on the user, indica strains are more of a body high and are excellent to use as an aphrodisiac, sativa strains are better known for their mind high and euphoric emotional states. Of course ther are an infinite number of combinations on these strains and choosing the right one for use is oftentimes half the fun [thumb] Aside from that I would suggest a form of trancendental meditation to focus your mind so that before you smoke your emotional state is in your control and not at the whim of your surroundings.

personally I prefer a combination of the two strains for the reasons mentioned above, I have had a few occasions when paranoia took control, but that ended when I learned to control my mind and focus on the bliss of the immediate and not some unforseen consequence that never occured. Also I experience the exact emotions that I want when I really focus, I have found atheism and libertinage are quite helpful in doing away with any last remaining vestiges of regret or fear that once racked my feeble mind.

Edited by karomesis, 01 July 2005 - 01:52 AM.

[Pablo M]

Please allow me to take a stab at this. I live in BC, so I know a thing or two about weed. [sfty]

I believe that THC is (physically speaking) one of the most benign substances. Practically speaking, there is no LD50, and all of the hysteria about THC being stored in fat, destroying brain cells and whatnot is just hysteria. According to a study cited by NORML, cannabis does not affect cortisol. That being said, I know people who have smoked themselves stupid or paranoid or both. It can be pleasurable but done to excess it tends to control a person's experiences.

I would recommend temporary abstinence and taking lots of neuroprotective nootropics, such as bacopa. If you beleive stress is a factor, there are many substances that control cortisol such as ashwagandha and holy basil.

[LifeMirage]

Anyone can feel free to respond and to be fair some of the people at avant have discussed this with me and cortisol is about as close a causative factor as anything, but something has been bothering me alot lately and I'm wondering if lifeMirage would have an answer. Smoking pot used to be a pleasant experience for me, quite a rush indeed. Now all it seems to do is make me edgy, paranoid, even a bit delusional(I start thinking everyone thinks I'm making an ass of myself, essentially).

I'm wondering what has caused this. Is it an imbalance of serotonin etc or is it a cortisol thing or what in the heck is it? As much as I'd like to be able to enjoy being high again it would mean more to me just to simply know what has taken place in my mind that prevents it, just for everyday knowledge of my own brain chemistry.

Any takers? Anyone else experience this?

Toxicon. 2004 Sep 15;44(4):461-7.
The good and the bad effects of (-) trans-delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (Delta 9-THC) on humans.
Delta(9)-THC is not devoid of ill effects. On the cognitive domain it impairs the human capacity to discriminate time intervals and space distances, vigilance, memory and the performance for mental work. On the psychic area Delta(9)-THC may induce unpleasant reactions such as disconnected thoughts, panic reactions, disturbing changes in perception, delusions and hallucinatory experiences.

Eur J Neurosci. 2004 Aug;20(3):859-63.
Prolonged cannabinoid treatment results in spatial working memory deficits and impaired long-term potentiation in the CA1 region of the hippocampus in vivo.
These results indicate that long-term cannabinoid exposure can produce marked deficits in reference and working memory performance, and also impair hippocampal synaptic plasticity in vivo.

J Neurosci. 2003 Jun 15;23(12):4815-20.
Functional tolerance and blockade of long-term depression at synapses in the nucleus accumbens after chronic cannabinoid exposure.
These data demonstrate that long-term exposure to the active ingredient of marijuana blocks synaptic plasticity in the NAc and reduces the sensitivity of GABAergic and glutamatergic synapses to both cannabinoids and opioids.

Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001 Oct;58(10):909-15.
Neuropsychological performance in long-term cannabis users.
CONCLUSION: Some cognitive deficits appear detectable at least 7 days after heavy cannabis use but appear reversible and related to recent cannabis exposure rather than irreversible and related to cumulative lifetime use.

I would avoid it.

Various nootropics can help repair the damage though.

[confusion]

Various nootropics can help repair the damage though.

..such as?

i can really relate to the thread starter's post. cannabis often makes me feel edgey, paranoid, and somewhat dillusional. but i currently have to use marijuana to help me eat.
what nootropics should i be taking to help with this and the damage cannabis may be doing to my brain?
i recently bought some fish oil extract from the local supermarket...is this the same stuff as choline?
i aslo have a bit of ashwagandha root and am wondering how much and how often i should be taking these 'supplements'.

thanks for any help.

[mnosal]

I would advise taking a break and evaluating what is stressing you. As a mood enhancing drug, marijuana might also intensify pre-existing anxiety. Fear of being caught(kids at home, dorms etc) fear of being tested (work) or even the dissaproval of ones peers all would serve to put a "buzzkill" on the experience.

I don't drink alcohol, exercise religiously and maintain a 3.8 in Nursing school all while working 40hrs climbing & repairing Cell Towers 75+ft. I need my mind sharp all week day and night and the cummulative stress is significant.
I use meditation and Nootropics to keep my edge and both work wonders for me.

Part of my relief mechanism is getting high every saturday afternoon with my wife. We use a water pipe to keep the carcinogens down, smoke very little (since our tolerance never builds up with infrequent use) and then hop into bed and sort of just "enjoy each other" for a few hrs. We then follow up with a great meal and catch a movie.

While I certainly agree there are some reversible effects with chronic use, I think as an occasional treat(few times a month) it is much safer than Alcohol consumption and even therapeutic in some cases. Moderation is the key as well as finding the right place and time to kick back and enjoy the drug as oppossed to fitting it in everyday and working around it to function.

sorry for the book

[spider]

"...and then hop into bed and sort of just "enjoy each other" for a few hrs. " (mnosal)

LOL...Mnosal, I like your style. This definitely the best stress-reliever. [thumb]

[stellar]

MJ is fun. However, it is not as safe as many think. First of all, smoke is full of aldehydes. Regardless of whether you use a waterpipe or not, the smoke is still carcinogenic. The method of ingestion matters. Many that use it for medical purposes use vaporizers, most are expensive, but high quality. It just boils the plant matter and you end up with the extraction of pure thc in water vapor.
Other points of discussion, yes I have read that thc increases cortisol, which is neurotoxic to the hippocampus. Yet, THC induces melatonin secretion, as we know it is a powerful antioxidant....AND antagonizes cortisol. Yet another conundrum. Additionally, MJ/THC inhibit VEGF, a growth factor which is implicated in tumor growth. However, based on what I've read THC is an immunosuppressant. Bad things can happen when your immune system isn't able fulfill it's proper role...sometimes cancer.

Just food for thought... bottom line, if you do it, don't smoke it.

[jeromewilson]

I love the headline of this post, I thought it might be a National Enquirer style exposé

For what it's worth I've known a few people who have had real problems (from paranoia to serious psychosis) after long term spliff smoking but they all got through it. Their recovery always started by giving it up (at least in the short-medium term). And quite apart from anything else, if you're not enjoying it there's no point in flogging a dead horse.

[vastman]

A few personal thoughts...I gave up pot 15 or so years ago upon learning that it suppresses vassopressin release from the pituitary gland and it modifies the neurosynaptic gap which goes a long way towards explaining why I couldn't retrieve information as well... neither of these effects do a thing for clarity. As a songwriter/garden designer I did find it sort a helpful from time to time in jolting me out of traditional thought patterns, however overall these effects alone make it more difficult to function in an already too wacked out world.

[juggernaut333]

I enjoy a little herbal every now and then.Relaxing on the weekends mainly anymore.I too have smoked for over a decade(herb)and for the past few months when it is rarer occasion I am more prone to anxiety and an unpleasant time during at least part of the 'stoning' but I believe this to be from alot of stress that I have been going under the past few months as well.Now that the stressors are lifting,so are my negative symptoms for enjoying herb when I smoke it

[eclypz]

Just an update for everyone.

Because of all the references to the large release of melatonin at the onset of a weed high, and a few stories I have read of people supplementing with melatonin and finding it almost completely eliminates their negative side effects I decided to start supplementing with some 5htp since I had some on hand.

I snorted about 100mg of 5htp extract 98% pure about two hours before smoking some "kind" bud. I noticed a pronouned drop in inner dialogue, I felt much more in touch with my nervous system(wasn't all panicky) and was very conversationable.

I would not say it totaly 'cured' my recent panicky and anxious behavior, but will try a few more times to see what happens.

Here's my guess, which is just a guess, as to what is going on. If in fact there is a large melatonin release at the onset of a high then I am probably taxing my serotonergic system, depleting tryptophan levels. As the high continues so does the dropping levels of my serotonin. Towards the middle of the high I am now depleted and experiencing a deficiency.

I am convinced that I am already someone who has a serotonin deficiency and this drug was slowly chipping away at what little I had in reserve. Add to this the melatonin surge wreaking havoc on your sleep rhythms and it spells disaster for those who are delicately balanced and enjoy their sanity.