224 replies to this topic

[jaydfox]

(prometheus)

For what it's worth, karomesis has provided a valuable insight, which I already pointed out, but I'll point it out again.

This sort of insight you can also obtain interviewing the guests of high security prisons and institutions for the clinically insane. Since when did Imminst have to indulge the fantasies of such individuals?

That attitude is EXACTLY the response the terrorists want. They blow up our innocent civilians. What do they expect?

This does not mean we have the right to condemn an entire culture/state/religion on account of some extremists. We do not even know who "they" are.

My point was, given a number of possible responses to these attacks, karomesis displayed one we are ashamed of. But his response was not rare, not one in a million. Millions of Americans and Britons shared his same sentiments of hatred and jingoism. And the part we need to not ignore is that this is what the terrorists want. They want division of the population. They want us to hate them. Hate blinds us, makes us weak, makes us do stupid things. They want that. It weakens us more than introspection and self-correction ever could.

And by ignoring it, by pushing this post and others like it out of sight and out of mind, we're ignoring an opportunity for an object lesson, to show people that karomesis' response was not one of a kind, not one in a million. It was FUCKING TYPICAL!!! We can't combat attitudes like that, or better yet, outsmart the terrorists at their own game, if we ignore comments like this or merely punish them. Because punishing people rarely leads to a rational response, especially if you're punishing them for something they did in the heat of passion. It might work, if they can see that the punishment was rational, or it might make matters worse. Why risk making matters worse? ImmInst doesn't condone karomesis's response, but that doesn't mean we must ignore and punish it. We expose it for what it is: human nature. The natural response that millions of people felt today. And we analyze it, and we try to figure out how to prevent it from happening next time. Not just how to prevent another attack, but how to prevent this type of response when the attacks do occur.

[manowater989]

I'm telling you, the only solution is the Rev Meme: there aren't problems WITH Society, Society itself IS the problem. When will senseless wars and bloodshed stop? When humanity is changed, when humanity is free. Did these bombings bring chaos? No, they brought death, the result of ignorance, stagnation, order. True chaos, indeed, is the only real cure. True freedom.

[lightowl]

Lightowl,

Better security would be great but e.g. alas neither party has the balls to close the borders. So it will take a suitcase nuc from allah or something similar before that happens.

Better security is only a viable short term solution. Closing the borders would in my opinion be a fatal mistake. It would only further divide our worlds people and spawn even more hatred. I would even go so far as to allow for further opening of borders and instead focus on local security and with much more communication between security and the public. Also, transportation security is not good enough with the thread level of today. IMO.

[scottl]

"divide our worlds people "

Again, care to comment on the Van Gogh incident?

And [I hate having 2 threads on the same topic on the board]

Your world's people includes some peacetul muslims and some who wish us harm. What do you really expect to happen from letting large number of these people (both types) into the coutry?

This is where my signature comes from

[chris_h]

"divide our worlds people "

Again, care to comment on the Van Gogh incident?

And [I hate having 2 threads on the same topic on the board]

Your world's people includes some peacetul muslims and some who wish us harm.  What do you really expect to happen from letting large number of these people (both types) into the coutry?

This is where my signature comes from

Multiculturalism is the source of these problems, and muslims are not the only immigrants causing problem. They just happen to be the most problematic at the time.

I do not know why everyone gets all excited when some Muslims kill 50 people at once but then ignore the people killed everyday in individual isolated incidents by Muslim immigrants; the sum of the little incidents outweighs the damgage of a single large one. It reminds me of the recent tsunami: All of a sudden people wanted to help people and sent food and supplies even though there were plenty of people in equal need before the incident that no one cared about.

[jaydfox]

I do not know why everyone gets all excited when some Muslims kill 50 people at once but then ignore the people killed everyday in individual isolated incidents by Muslim immigrants; the sum of the little incidents outweighs the damgage of a single large one. It reminds me of the recent tsunami: All of a sudden people wanted to help people and sent food and supplies even though there were plenty of people in equal need before the incident that no one cared about.

That's kind of how aging is. Only it's not 50 people at once, but 100,000 a day, roughly one every second. But we get concerned and ban ecstacy, because 15 people died (yes, a lot more have died since then, but at the time that the media gave attention to a vociferous father who'd lost a teenage daughter, which got the politicians involved, I believe this was the body count).

We get concerned, and try to fight horrible diseases that afflict a few thousand people a year. We get concerned, and require billions of dollars in modifications to the space shuttle, to avert the 1% chance that seven lives might be lost, by seven individuals who most likely secretly wish the bureaucrats would just let them get back into space.

We focus on the most ridiculously unimportant things, when compared to the things we should be focussed on. It's not that the lives of seven astronauts are worthless: it's just that the billions spent to maybe save their lives could have been spent on medical research that would save thousands of lives, maybe tens of thousands. And I'm just talking about basic research, not even anti-aging research. If those billions of dollars had been pushed into aging research, the payoff in twenty years could be millions of lives a year, perpetually.

The quarter of a trillion dollars we spent and are continuing to spend in Iraq could, if it had been funnelled into a War on Aging, have brought a decade's worth of results in two or three short years, even without the technology that will be available ten years hence. Pour enough money into something, and you can get a good head start on it. If that quarter of a trillion dollars had been spent at ten billion a year for a quarter century, I'd be very surprised if the resulting medical technology wouldn't add 30 years of mean lifespan to the currently living population of the U.S. Mean lifespan. The possible benefits to maximal lifespan would be nothing less than a high-arced trajectory well exceeding escape velocity.

But no, we spent that quarter of a trillion dollars destroying a nation, destroying infrastructure, breeding terrorism, and killing over 100,000 civilians (or less than 10,000 if you believe Uncle Sam), not to mention a few thousand Americans and allies, and countless wounded on both sides whom the mainstream media will never report about. It's like being a cancer patient, and trying to decide between paying your medical insurance premium, or hiring a hitman to kill your neighbor because you think he's pissing on your lawn in the middle of the night. Yeah, I think we a bad call on that one, but I suppose it's a bit late to fix it, our policy's been cancelled, and our neighbor's next of kin are getting organized.

[chris_h]

AND I would not be so rash as to consider "Muslim" (nice of you to adopt some spelling convention) as a cogent distinction.  Timothy McVeigh and the arsonists who helped set fires last year in Southern California most likely do not fit the generalization of "muslim." 

Compare the nation to a houshold. Is it not wise to lock your door to keep out the burglars, rapists, murderers and other strangers while giving a key to family members? Your argument is that we should leave the door unlocked because occasionally one is harmed by a member of his own family.

Timothy McVeigh was produced from the homogeneous population, so we cannot avoid such risks; his actions can be compared to a son killing his father. On the other hand, Muslims are like the strangers who we lock out; we have no reason to care about their well being and they do not belong in our nations.

The truth is, there are less problems between homogenous populations. Those who share common ancestry and culture are like the family, which for the most part is a harmonious and natural relationship. It is quite unnatural and contrary to our purpose as human beings to help foreigners (strangers) at the great expense of our own citizens (the family).

[Karomesis]

jeromewilson, firstly, in the US we don't have the thought police ...yet. I know you british chaps are not allowed to sneeze before you ask the permission of your law enforcement. But across the pond we are still allowed to say what we want it's called free speech. I see you are going to make orwell a soothsayer instead of a fictitious writer.

I say what I truly think and believe, if you can't handle that piss off. I don't temper my responses in accordance to the latest in dr.phil political correctness, As prometheus and jaydfox will certainly attest. [lol] If you wish to ban me for responses made herein, then by all means do so; if not, then come up with valid critiques of my argument instead of calling me names like a child.

prometheus, my response to the thread was a hypothetical one. If the subtle nuances of my remarks are over your head please allow me to clarify them. "Psychotic fringe"?? [huh] wtf. Like I said before , the rights of many will be displaced by the despot.

I thought momentarily that the individuals here were more understanding of different mindsets, but unfortunately I was mistaken. It is remarkable that sincere remarks such as mine are treated with disdain, when fradulency and insincerity are applauded. If you cannot see this, then i truly pity you in your ignorance.

prometheus, is it then your contention that all responses must be tempered so as not to offend one of the 6+billion people on earth, it is you sir who are on the psychotic fringe, pray to your god and he may have mercy on your poor soul.

If need be I will start a forum where all responses are critiqued for their validity, I believed this to be such a place, I was wrong.

[jaydfox]

Karomesis, don't lose heart. We are a mixed group at ImmInst, and some of us are more sensitive than others. If you feel the need to speak your mind, feel free to take your thoughts to the Free Speech Forum when the navigators who tend these fertile fora find occassion to prune the branches.

In the greater scheme of things, all opinions are valid and equal, but as the cliche goes, some are more equal than others. Your response to this crisis was immature, vulgar, and without compassion. Of course, millions of people felt basically the same way. Prometheus will disagree, but A) I believe he's in Greece, or in Europe at the least, and hence doesn't fully understand the common man on the American street, and B) millions may sound like a lot, but it's only a small single-digit percentage of the nearly 300,000,000 people who live in the U.S.A.

Just because I stand by my contention that millions of Americans had the same reaction as Karomesis, a reaction I also contend was both expected and desired by the terrorists, I am in no way implying that this is the majority opinion, nor even a large minority. It is an infection which we must cleanse, but I don't wish to be the chief of the thought police. If we can't cleanse it with social disinfectants, then we at least need better education and outreach, both for mending and for preventing future wounds from festering. I suspect our reaction this time was much more tame compared to 9/11, when I met dozens of rational, intelligent people who made remarks similar to Karomesis's. Then again, that was an attack on our soil, seen as unprovoked, and on a much larger, bloodier scale. This small attack across the pond is unlikely to produce the vehement anti-Muslim response that 9/11 produced in the first couple days, before people calmed down and allowed themselves to remember that of a billion Muslims, only a few tens of thousands are actually terrorists.

[jaydfox]

jeromewilson, firstly, in the US we don't have the thought police ...yet. I know you british chaps are not allowed to sneeze before you ask the permission of your law enforcement. But across the pond we are still allowed to say what we want it's called free speech. I see you are going to make orwell a soothsayer instead of a fictitious writer.

We do, but our thought police aren't too bad, yet. If I recall, hate crimes carry extra penalties, which is a form of policing thoughts. I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that some states have extra penalties for violent crimes, if they can prove the motive for violence was based on race or sexual orientation or religion. Bombing a health clinic that performs abortions can land one in more trouble than bombing a gas station. The thought police are here already, but they so far are going after the most radical/reactionary of thoughts.

However, with the likes of Bush in power, there has been a strong push to censor by any means necessary, those who would criticize the administration with the truth. What critical news leaks out is just the tip of the iceberg. That's another form of the thought police, in my opinion.

[jeromewilson]

Valid critiques of your argument? You don't have an argument you have undiluted, unjustified hatred for an entire culture.

I'm all for freedom of speech and dead set against our government's moves to turn our country into a police state (you should take a proper look around you if you don't think it's happening in the US), but I'm sure there are plenty of NF / KKK forums where you can express your racist views amongst friends.

Edited by jeromewilson, 08 July 2005 - 04:09 PM.

[scottl]

Aside Re: karomesis

The reality is we do have the thought police in the US. There are true things you cannot say today. The thought police are also known as the PC police and they are from the left. Again Lazarus pointed out Fascism (I can't spell) was also known as the socialist party so none of this is a shock to anyone...except the PC police who deny what they are doing.

End of aside.

[scottl]

Chip,

I do not agree with everything Karomesis and chris_h say but they have the right to say it---or they would except free speech....is a regulated commodity here.

This is a very sore topic with me since I had a post of mine yanked and the only reason I can think is that I was explaining to ...Cosmos a game of batman and riddler the..."higher ups" were playing. Apparently someone didn't want that known publicly.

[jaydfox]

"from the left" Scott?  I recall some one once stating that even cartoons have both a left and a right.  What is this fantasy that sees the use of "left" as a descriptive label?  Yes, lost in the symbols I fear.  Left, right, Muslim, Christian, when do we start seeing humans on a planet?

Humans! HA! Sounds like a label to me, you non-labelling... er, human!

Just messin' with ya.

[jeromewilson]

OK, I'm persuaded that absolute unconditional freedom of speech is a good thing - it's fine to disagree but on what basis should anyone have the right to censor someone else? Seriously.

That presents a bit of a problem here on Imminst forums though - surely if someone is allowed to freely express racial hatred then someone else, for instance, should be allowed to make unsubstantiated claims against supplement suppliers. So who is going to invite Nootropi back into the fold?

Don't get me wrong - I obviously don't condone either of those examples, but can't you detect the subtle odour of hipocrisy?

[chris_h]

Chris, the USA is not homogenous.  In the so-called melting pot we can't keep that elusive "them" out because they are already here.  Alluding to some sense of purity in regards to culture can only come from gross over simplification of very complex conditions.

I grew up in a small town whose population was almost entirely of North Western European descent, and we all got along quite well with the exception of a few incidents of non-ideological motivation. My understanding is that America was of a similar degree of homogeneousness for a good while after its founding. Earlier, when I referred to the homogenous population, I was referring to the hypothetical homogenous population of North Western European descent which I believe should have been maintained; I realize that the entirety of the United States no longer is homogenous, but homogeneousness still does exist in localities. Clearly, this argument is even stronger for the populations of Europe.

While I am not suggesting that it is the optimal solution, homogeneousness could be accomplished (if the people wanted it) by regrouping the populations. On the other hand, I will suggest that all immigration should end and that the homogeneousness which exists in localities should be maintained. I do not agree with the favorableness of the melting pot concept, but the truth is that a degree of favorable assimilation does occur. The immigrants which have been here for a good while cannot be compared with first or second generation immigrants, so just because immigrants are already here does not mean that ending immigration would be futile. I am willing to bet that the Muslims responsible for the attacks were either first or second generation immigrants.

As for the complaints about the open mindedness of this forum, I do not agree. I have found no other forum of greater openness and I am constantly impressed by the thoughtfulness of the members here. Perhaps this discussion can be maintained by moving the discussion of censorship elsewhere.

Edited by chris_h, 08 July 2005 - 10:34 PM.

[jaydfox]

Chip, Jerome, All:

The forum moderation powers are entrusted to the Navigators with a certain bit of leeway, as the leadership wants to trust their discretion. If we can't show trust in our Navigators, they become less effective. Adding more and more rules makes them less effective, not more.

But basically, we don't condone ad hominem attacks, vulgarity (though some swearing is allowed, within reason, if it adds to the content and isn't just "decoration"). One's history is taken into account: a person that consistently attacks others, consistently uses vulgarity, and is consistently racist or sexist, etc., will be given less leeway. A person who is typically well-reasoned, controlled, with an emphasis on logic and facts and less emphasis on passion (though some passion is good, to spice things up), will be given more leeway in the rare instance he or she steps out of bounds. Ultimately, hateful and/or vulgar ad hominems are not tolerated by anyone, not even if from leadership.

Chip, you have been fairly consistent in hounding Prometheus, and he is after all just a human, a man, and as such he has pride, like we all do to various degrees. You push his buttons, and he has restrained himself very well considering how far you've taken your incessant ad hominem attacks and paranoid allegations. You should take a look inward at the content of your own posts before judging his.

And yes, Prometheus and I had a philosophical difference of opinion about Karomesis's post. I went to quote it, in my "hypothetical response B", and found it missing. I felt it important to discuss it, so I brought it back out of the Catcher, without stopping to respect Prometheus's actions as a member of leadership. In hindsight, I should have consulted him first. At any rate, the cat's out of the bag, so I won't remove it now, but I respect his actions and the leeway he should be afforded. As an Advisor, he doesn't have the official title of "Navigator". However, as leadership, I feel it's implied.

Harold had no way of knowing that I was about to make an object lesson of Karomesis's malicious and cruel words, so in that respect I don't fault him for moving them out of this forum. If no one had stood up and pointed out the lesson to be learned, then I agree it would have been bad for ImmInst and our mission to leave Karomesis's words where they were. In that respect, I don't fault Harold for moving them, and I disagree with your implication that this has resulted in infighting. Harold was doing what was best under the circumstances. My subsequent post changed the circumstances, and I think we can now proceed as mature adults to analyze how Karomesis's vulgar response played right into the hands of the terrorists.

[jaydfox]

I was referring to the hypothetical homogenous population of North Western European descent which I believe should have been maintained

Sounds like something Michael Savage would say. "Language, borders, culture!"

[jeromewilson]

I apologise for my colourful language and respectfully bow out to return to my occasional moochings in 'Nootropics and Brain Enhancers'. Maybe I'll return once I've suitably enhanced my brain, but for now this forum is bad for my blood pressure

[Karomesis]

I loathe typing ,when in fact all our respective opinions would be better understood by others By a fully interactive video forum, where people can see face to face their adversaries and allies.

"immature opinions and vulgar remarks"?? [huh] coming from an individual who belives in fairy tales that's quite a stretch. My opinions are based on verifiable studies and ruthless machivellian warfare. Which has worked for thousnads of years.What are yours based upon? a book that contradicts itself and speaks nonsense? Your argument jaydfox, once again proves worthless. Some passion is ok?? how much jaydfox? Are you the example [lol] if so, then this forum will look like a morgue. whatever will you boring fools do when I depart henceforth, from imminst? My initial reply has generated much controversy, as it well should. What you were forgetting when you wanted to make an example out of poor, vulgar, psychotic karomesis was that your hypocrisy does not go unnoticed amongst the imminst populace, it is amusing to see you try to reply coherently to their remarks, kind of like seeing a clinically obese woman get into a pair of tight fitting jeans [lol] [lol]


anyway, I understand that the police state is beggining to close it's tentacles around my freedoms, however; the coming winds of change will see the tables turn. Of that you can be quite certain. The future has no place for large cumbersome governments attempting to impose thier will on others with impunity, the internet will be one of the great equalizers. It is the cowards who stand idly by when thier government ravages their freedoms who will die a thousand deaths because they will always fear. I fear nothing and no one, no not even the directors who chastised me for my sincerity. [tung]

Navigation: Threatening content has been edited from this post.

Edited by DonSpanton, 10 July 2005 - 05:07 AM.

[eternaltraveler]

The threat of radical Moslem is that one that must be faced in this coming century and Mind said it very well:

“Either way, the only thing they understand is power and violence”

do you think that someone who is willing to blow themselves up knowing full well that his town will be attacked in retaliation is scared of anything we would do.

if i was one of these terrorists it wouldn't matter one bit, but if I was the father of two little girls who get blown up in the retaliation it just might make me fall off my rocker and become an insane terrorist too.

I'm open to suggestions. Here I do like the israeli solution--if possible find the terrorist's parents's house and bulldoze it (giving them e.g. 48 hours warning to leave).

Iraq is a mess and it is unfortunate we are there, but again 9/11 happened before that and when we pull out it will not end it. What was the artist's name in Holand...Von Gogh? Iraq will come and go but the issue of moslem terrorism will not. Truly Elrond, I would not kill a cat in lab in medical school and I really dislke violence but if there is any other ways to deal with what is the scourge for this century, I'd love to hear it.

Chip,

Care to address e.g. the Van Gogh killing in Holland.

I have no suggestions. I don't think there are solutions.

[kevin]

karomesis,

You're right about the future not being the place for big insensitive governments, but you might be surprised at what else the future will have no place for.


Machiavelli's ideas were born in a time when information could be controlled, this is no longer the case and his ideas are incompatible with the speed with which communication of events occurs. The internet will indeed be the great equalizer and the vast majority of humanity who abhor violence and wish for safety, peace and prosperity for themselves and their children will ensure that the balance swings away from extremist temperaments who seek to destabilize and reverse what little progress humanity has managed to claw out of history.

[eternaltraveler]

I have no suggestions. I don't think there are solutions.

Other that is, than time.

[Karomesis]

ANNM plastique?? let's keep the topic relevant prometheus, unless of course your other name is megalomaniac I have heard that ANNM can be heard two miles upwind with a 2 kilo blast [glasses] [wis]

delusions? man, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I don't pretend to be anything other than what I truly am. There is nothing contradictory about my posts unlike your own.

"No doubt the jeromes of the world will pay homage to your fierce countenance" actually I'm a nice guy once you get to know me [lol]


kevin,actually very little surprises me anymore,it seems the more I know the more I realize how little I actually know, what type of person will the future have room for? boring drones who follow mindlessly, or creative psycopaths who allow nothing to stand in their way? Machivellis principles will stand for as long as we have primitive minds that fear and hate . Do I prefer peace? of course. but how will we gain peace when we are still hunter gatherers underneath the facade of civilization and progress? I believe that true peace will only become possible when we alter our minds in such a way as to be almost unrecognizable from our current state, and even then there will always be viruses or some other digital malady to change a peace loving posthuman into a despot with a heart of stone who will make nero, caligula, hilter and stalin combined look like teletubbies [:o]

[lightowl]

"divide our worlds people "

Again, care to comment on the Van Gogh incident?

I am not sure what incident you are referring to. I was just stating my opinion of what would be best for the people of earth.

Your world's people includes some peacetul muslims and some who wish us harm. What do you really expect to happen from letting large number of these people (both types) into the coutry?

What country are you referring to? I am talking about the borders of all free countries and unions. My world is your world too. I would expect people to learn each others differences and start to tolerate each other. Shutting some people out just because they are originally from another place will only make things worse. IMO.

[Karomesis]

nevermind

Edited by karomesis, 10 July 2005 - 03:35 PM.

[scottl]

"BBC edits out the word terrorist"

http://news.telegrap...7/12/nbbc12.xml

The BBC has re-edited some of its coverage of the London Underground and bus bombings to avoid labelling the perpetrators as "terrorists", it was disclosed yesterday.

"the word 'terrorist' itself can be a barrier rather than an aid to understanding"

So while they are blowing up things we are worried about hurting their feelings.

This is certifiable (insane) and why my signature is there.

[scottl]

Again, care to comment on the Van Gogh incident?

I am not sure what incident you are referring to. I was just stating my opinion of what would be best for the people of earth.
.

2 November, 2004

Gunman kills Dutch film director

Van Gogh directed TV series and wrote newspaper columns
Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh, who made a controversial film about Islamic culture, has been stabbed and shot dead in Amsterdam, Dutch police say.



I suppose it is inevitable that a board with this stated goal should attract more idealists then realists....

Edit..heh between these 2 posts that should probably offend everyone here. Oh well. [lol]

Edited by scottl, 12 July 2005 - 12:15 PM.