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Nutrients/supplements for vegans besides B12?

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#1 Skyguy2005

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 02:31 PM


Speaking as someone who isn't a vegan I was curious. It is well known that vegans need to supplement B12. Is the same true of someone who eats meat rarely? Also, what supplements might be recommended besides B12?

 

Carnosine is one that I have heard recommended (and not just for vegans/vegetarians).


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#2 Darryl

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 08:30 PM

“Failure to Thrive” as a Vegan – Could Supplemental Carninutrients Help? by Mark F. McCarty

 

Personally, I take one algal long chain omega-3 gelcap (320 mg DHA + 130 mg EPA), and 2 home filled 'OO' capsules daily, each with:

 

250 mg creatine

125 mg β-alanine

125 mg taurine

50 mg carnitine

100 mcg B12 (cyanocobalamin)

 

Creatine, β-alanine, and carnitine levels approximate omnivore intakes, while taurine, B12, and DHA+EPA levels were chosen based on ecologic & clinical studies and are higher than most omnivore intakes. I haven't noticed any positive effects or negative ones in the year I've taken these, but on the other hand I've been close to pure vegan for 4 years with no lethargy or "failure to thrive". A 365-day supply was $93 for the algal DHA+EPA (equivalent refined fish oil costs half as much), and US$ 35 for the bulk powder capsules, so its cheap insurance.

 

Don't bother with carnosine - it gets digested immediately. β-alanine.is a precursor that elevates tissue carnosine.

 


Edited by Darryl, 20 January 2015 - 09:02 PM.

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#3 Skyguy2005

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 10:02 PM

Thanks



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#4 drew_ab

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 02:06 AM

“Failure to Thrive” as a Vegan – Could Supplemental Carninutrients Help? by Mark F. McCarty

 

Personally, I take one algal long chain omega-3 gelcap (320 mg DHA + 130 mg EPA), and 2 home filled 'OO' capsules daily, each with:

 

250 mg creatine

125 mg β-alanine

125 mg taurine

50 mg carnitine

100 mcg B12 (cyanocobalamin)

 

Creatine, β-alanine, and carnitine levels approximate omnivore intakes, while taurine, B12, and DHA+EPA levels were chosen based on ecologic & clinical studies and are higher than most omnivore intakes. I haven't noticed any positive effects or negative ones in the year I've taken these, but on the other hand I've been close to pure vegan for 4 years with no lethargy or "failure to thrive". A 365-day supply was $93 for the algal DHA+EPA (equivalent refined fish oil costs half as much), and US$ 35 for the bulk powder capsules, so its cheap insurance.

 

Don't bother with carnosine - it gets digested immediately. β-alanine.is a precursor that elevates tissue carnosine.

After reading that link, I have a few questions:

 

1) What clinical syndromes would be required for vegans to supplement with carninutrients?

 

2) I wasn't aware that the China study suggested that fish intake was correlated with health.  Is this accurate?  I've read it twice and just don't recall that conclusion. 



#5 Darryl

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 04:42 AM

Besides B12, none of the "carninutrients" are essential. We can produce all of the others from other nutrients, though possibly not to levels that maximize healthspan and minimize disease risk.

 

The only ones where vegans can have lower tissue levels by an order of magnitude are B12 and (in males and postmenopausal women) the long chain omega-3s (EPA/DHA). For the others, vegans on average have somewhat lower levels. I supplement the others simply as cheap insurance.

 

The cited reanalysis of China study samples found incidence of most chronic diseases was lower, though diabetes and liver cancer were higher, in coastal Chinese villages where fish intake, determined by blood DHA, was higher. The correlations were in general smaller than those observed for total animal protein and saturated fat intake in earlier papers, however it does suggest that either DHA or other compounds associated with seafood consumption (IMO taurine) offer an advantage over the stricter vegetarianism of inland communities.

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Darryl, 21 January 2015 - 04:43 AM.


#6 Skyguy2005

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 06:42 PM

Cyanocobalamin or Methylcobalamin?

Also, whats the benefits of taurine?



#7 gamesguru

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 04:21 AM

I like the algal omega-3 suggestion.  Even though I'm opposed to supplements, this is more of a whole food.  Vitamin D and calcium are also difficult to obtain from diets; most vegans are probably deficient, unless you're eating wild mushrooms and tofu.   Vitamin B12 is the reason I still eat meats, that and to easily meet protein requirements.


Edited by gamesguru, 23 January 2015 - 04:22 AM.


#8 Darryl

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 01:32 PM

Methylcobalamin is somewhat more bioavailable, its what I took in liquid form. However, for my capsules cyanocobalamin was easier to find as a 1% powder. 

 

Taurine is an amino acid that, while not incorporated into proteins, is among the most abundant in the body. It appears to function as an osmoregulator, protect against glycation through scavenging activated carbonyls, stabilizes membranes, reduces ER stress, opposes glutamate induced excitotoxicity and calcium influx, and may be a neurotransmitter. Animal studies have found it protective against atherosclerosis, ischemia/reperfusion injury, and diabetic complications. Most interesting to me was the strong negative correlation between urinary taurine excretion and CVD mortality in the WHO-CARDIAC study.

 

6g8ok4.gif

 

While I don't believe taurine is solely responsible for this correlation, there's a mountain of animal studies that suggest it probably plays a role. Meanwhile, vegans have about 25% lower plasma levels than even Western omnivores. My 250 mg intake is 2000 μmol, about twice Western omnivore intakes.

 

Alas, as taurine is non-proprietary (and dirt cheap) there really hasn't been funding for long-term supplement trials in humans.

 

Yamori, Y., Liu, L., Mori, M., Sagara, M., Murakami, S., Nara, Y., & Mizushima, S. (2009). Taurine as the nutritional factor for the longevity of the Japanese revealed by a world-wide epidemiological survey. In Taurine 7 (pp. 13-25). Springer New York.

Laidlaw, S. A., Shultz, T. D., Cecchino, J. T., & Kopple, J. D. (1988). Plasma and urine taurine levels in vegansThe American journal of clinical nutrition,47(4), 660-663.

 

The next time I put together some carni-multis capsules, I may add 10 mg zinc/capsule, as this is the mineral vegans may have difficulty getting enough of.

 

 

 


Edited by Darryl, 23 January 2015 - 01:38 PM.

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#9 drew_ab

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 03:49 AM

I only wish you sold these capsules! I wouldn't even know where to begin making them.

#10 aribadabar

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 06:13 AM

Darryl,

 
While on the subject of B12 variants, what is your opinion of xydroxo-/adenosyl-cobalamin vs the more popular (and cheaper) cyano-/methylcobolamin, especially in light of the COMT/ VDR mutations, particularly p.10-11 of the report, in some individuals?
 
Marketing gimmick or a reasonable approach given the impaired methylation function in these people?
 
Many thanks for your insight! 

 



#11 Application

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 06:25 AM

Iodine is also a potential problem. The below study says 80% of vegans are deficient.

 

 

Ann Nutr Metab. 2003;47(5):183-5.

Iodine deficiency in vegetarians and vegans.
Abstract

Iodine content in food of plant origin is lower in comparison with that of animal origin due to a low iodine concentration in soil. Urinary iodine excretion was assessed in 15 vegans, 31 lacto- and lacto-ovovegetarians and 35 adults on a mixed diet. Iodine excretion was significantly lower in alternative nutrition groups - 172 microg/l in vegetarians and 78 microg/l in vegans compared to 216 microg/l in subjects on a mixed diet. One fourth of the vegetarians and 80% of the vegans suffer from iodine deficiency (iodine excretion value below 100 microg/l) compared to 9% in the persons on a mixed nutrition. The results show that under conditions of alternative nutrition, there is a higher prevalence of iodine deficiency, which might be a consequence of exclusive or prevailing consumption of food of plant origin, no intake of fish and other sea products, as well as reduced iodine intake in the form of sea salt.

Copyright 2003 S. Karger AG, Basel

PMID:   12748410   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12748410


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#12 Luminosity

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 06:33 AM

Don't know the answer to the poster's original question, but iodine is available in sea salt and seaweed.  Don't know if it's deficient in vegans. 



#13 Application

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 09:01 AM

Don't know the answer to the poster's original question, but iodine is available in sea salt and seaweed.  Don't know if it's deficient in vegans. 

 

Most non-vegans also get iodine from animal foods. The animal's diets are supplemented so they do not become deficient. The study above said 80% of vegans tested deficient. Another study (below) found 36% of male vegans and 63% of female vegans consuming diets deficient in iodine.

 

 

 

Iodine intake and iodine deficiency in vegans as assessed by the duplicate-portion technique and urinary iodine excretion.
Abstract

I intake and I deficiency were investigated in thirty vegans (eleven males and nineteen females) consuming their habitual diet. I intake was estimated using the chemical analysis of 4 d weighed duplicate diet collections. The probability of I-deficiency disorders (IDD) was judged from the measurement of urinary I excretion in 24 h urine specimens during the 4 d. There was wide variation in I intake. Mean I intake in males was lower than the reference nutrient intake (RNI; Department of Health, 1991) and mean intake in females was above the RNI, although 36% males and 63% females had I intakes below the lower RNI.... The probability of IDD in the group investigated was moderate to severe: three of five subgroups were classified as moderate and two subgroups were classified as severe IDD possibility. The findings highlight that vegans are an 'at risk' group for I deficiency. The I status of vegans and the subclinical effects of low I intakes and infrequent high I intakes on thyroid function in this group should be further studied. Our work has also raised the question of adequate I intakes in groups where cow's milk is not consumed, and has exposed a need for more research in this area.

 

 

from: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10211051


Edited by Application, 24 January 2015 - 09:04 AM.


#14 Darryl

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 06:36 PM

I wouldn't even know where to begin making them

There are a few inexpensive capsule filling "jigs". I used a "00" size Capsule Machine, ~$16 at US internet retailers. I just tossed powders obtained from purebulk.com in the correct proportions into a large plastic cylindrical container, agitated and rolled for 15 minutes til the bright red cyanocobalamin was uniformly distributed, and followed the guidance of some youtube demonstrations, filling 1000 capsules in about 2 hours. Each "00" capsule holds about 700 mg of the powder mix I used.

 

As you might imagine, there are quandaries for a supplement manufacturer making something like this. Its a tiny market, and for those that cater to ethical vegans it would represent an admission that a vegan diet may be suboptimal with respect to nutrients besides B12. It took numerous cases of irreversible neuropathy in vegans, and worse, in their infant children, before many accepted that B12 supplementation was a necessity.

 

what is your opinion of xydroxo-/adenosyl-cobalamin vs the more popular (and cheaper) cyano-/methylcobolamin, especially in light of the COMT/ VDR mutations

 

These gene variants don't seem relevant to B12 metabolism.

 

COMT V158M (aka Rs4680) is a mutation in an enzyme that consumes SAM to inactivate some neurotransmitters. As catechol-O-methyltransferase doesn't use B12 as a cofactor, Dr. Amy seems to be arguing for more expensive, less stable B12 vitamers to increase SAM availability. While its true that cyanocobalamin can only be partially converted to the biologically active forms, I believe we can more cheaply simply provide an excess of this form (particularly when purchasing bulk powders). There are conditions that impair oral absorption of any of the cobalamins, notably insufficient intrinsic factor from damaged or aged stomach lining, or small intestinal bacterial overgrowth competing for absorption. These will adversely effect the active intestinal transport of 1.5-3 mcg / meal. However, about 1% of excess over that amount will be passively absorbed by enterocytes, so I think this is a case where, at the levels I'm taking, obstacles can be steamrolled.

 

VDR Taq is a common polymorphism in the gene for the vitamin D receptor. I've found nothing in the peer reviewed literature demonstrating an interaction with B12 metabolism.

 

Iodine is also a potential problem.

 

Indeed. I eat enough wakame laced miso soup that I'm not worried, but kelp tablets are inexpensive. Alternatively, iodine from potassium iodide is about 20% bioavailable, and risks from exceeding the 150 mcg requirement somewhat (but not above the US tolerable upper limit of 1100 mcg) appear minor.

 


Edited by Darryl, 24 January 2015 - 06:42 PM.

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#15 Skyguy2005

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 08:26 PM

Methylcobalamin is somewhat more bioavailable, its what I took in liquid form. However, for my capsules cyanocobalamin was easier to find as a 1% powder. 

 

Taurine is an amino acid that, while not incorporated into proteins, is among the most abundant in the body. It appears to function as an osmoregulator, protect against glycation through scavenging activated carbonyls, stabilizes membranes, reduces ER stress, opposes glutamate induced excitotoxicity and calcium influx, and may be a neurotransmitter. Animal studies have found it protective against atherosclerosis, ischemia/reperfusion injury, and diabetic complications. Most interesting to me was the strong negative correlation between urinary taurine excretion and CVD mortality in the WHO-CARDIAC study.

 

6g8ok4.gif

 

While I don't believe taurine is solely responsible for this correlation, there's a mountain of animal studies that suggest it probably plays a role. Meanwhile, vegans have about 25% lower plasma levels than even Western omnivores. My 250 mg intake is 2000 μmol, about twice Western omnivore intakes.

 

Alas, as taurine is non-proprietary (and dirt cheap) there really hasn't been funding for long-term supplement trials in humans.

 

Yamori, Y., Liu, L., Mori, M., Sagara, M., Murakami, S., Nara, Y., & Mizushima, S. (2009). Taurine as the nutritional factor for the longevity of the Japanese revealed by a world-wide epidemiological survey. In Taurine 7 (pp. 13-25). Springer New York.

Laidlaw, S. A., Shultz, T. D., Cecchino, J. T., & Kopple, J. D. (1988). Plasma and urine taurine levels in vegansThe American journal of clinical nutrition,47(4), 660-663.

 

The next time I put together some carni-multis capsules, I may add 10 mg zinc/capsule, as this is the mineral vegans may have difficulty getting enough of.

 

Why did the Finnish have such low levels of Taurine? Don't they eat any meat?
 



#16 drew_ab

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 11:55 PM

Thanks for posting how you made your capsules Darryl, and where you got your supplies. I'm going to make the same formula as you. Just ordered right now.

#17 Darryl

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Posted 25 January 2015 - 04:50 AM

Why did the Finnish have such low levels of Taurine? Don't they eat any meat?

 

Note the X-intercept is 250 μmol, not 0, and that this is urinary excretion, not intake.

 

The Finns and other omnivores with lower taurine intake prrobably consume a lot of dairy, some beef and pork, but little shellfish or poultry dark meat. The Japanese communities with high taurine intake are probably consuming a lot of squid and other molluscs.

 

Food             mg/100 g (wet)
Scallop             827
Mussel              655
Clam                520
Oyster              396
Squid               356
White fish (?)      151
Tuna                 42
Shrimp               39
 
Chicken, light meat  15
Chicken, dark meat  199
Turkey, light meat   30
Turkey, dark meat   299
 
Beef                 43
Veal                 40
Pork, loin           61
Ham, picnic          50
 
Yogurt                3.3
Dairy milk            2.4
Ice cream             1.9
Cheese                -
 
From:
Laidlaw, S. A., Grosvenor, M., & Kopple, J. D. (1990). The taurine content of common foodstuffs. Journal of Parenteral and Enteral Nutrition14(2), 183-188.

Edited by Darryl, 25 January 2015 - 05:16 AM.

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#18 drew_ab

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:39 PM

Darryl, I assembled my carni-nutrient capsules using the same formula as you. I am happy to be done because my gosh, it was a tedious process.

#19 Brett Black

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 12:06 PM

Personally, I take one algal long chain omega-3 gelcap (320 mg DHA + 130 mg EPA), and 2 home filled 'OO' capsules daily, each with:

250 mg creatine
125 mg β-alanine
125 mg taurine
50 mg carnitine
100 mcg B12 (cyanocobalamin)

Are you aware of the link made between carnitine, TMAO and cardiovascular disease? Also the lifespan studies in mice fed carnitine?

http://www.longecity...-disease/page-3

http://www.health.ha...se-201304176083

Edited by Brett Black, 15 February 2015 - 12:23 PM.


#20 Darryl

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 05:52 PM

Yes. I don't fully buy into the Hazen studies. TMAO is metabolized in quantities an order of magnitute larger from fish, yet fish consumption appears to be net positive for cardiovascular health. I believeTMAO was serving primarily as a coincident marker of high animal product intake and an unhealthy/unhelpful gut microbiota in Hazen's prospective cohort.

 

Mark McCarty came to similar conclusions::

 

McCarty, M. F. (2013). L-carnitine consumption, its metabolism by intestinal microbiota, and cardiovascular health. In Mayo Clinic Proceedings(Vol. 88, No. 8, pp. 786-789).

 

I don't think TMAO is harmless. However, in several studies Hazen demonstrated that vegans don't absorb TMA after single doses of carnitine or phosphatidylcholine. I suspect the organisms responsible for metabolism of carnitine to TMA are largely absent from vegan guts due to the absence of numerous animal compounds, not just carnitine, and higher intake of prebiotic oligosaccharides, resistant starch, and polyphenols.. Its plausible that by supplementing with low-dose carnitine in the context of a low-fat plant based diet we may get the benefits of carnitine without the negatives of a laundry list of harmful meat components and a proinflammatory gut microbiota.

 

 


Edited by Darryl, 15 February 2015 - 06:30 PM.

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#21 Brett Black

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 08:42 AM

And the mice lifespan studies with carnitine?
http://www.longecity...e-3#entry610808

Not that improvements couldn't be made, but this large study showed male vegans(who I think it safe to assume are, as a group, rarely supplementing carnitine) already have the lowest all-cause, CVD and heart risk of all dietary groups, including pescetarians:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....91896/table/T4/
(note: there was a question raised about the lack of controlling for BMI in this study.)
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#22 Darryl

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 12:24 PM

The mouse diets were supplemented with 1.3% carnitine. At 4 g chow/day for 20 g mice, that's 2.6 g / kg / d. A human equivalent dose using standard conversion factors would be 210 mg / kg, or 12.6 g carnitine for a 60 kg person. 126 times what I'm taking.

 

I'm open to the idea that carnitine supplementation in healthy individuals without mitochondrial dysfunction is pointless, and perhaps the 17% to 29% lower plasma levels in vegans isn't an issue for most. A case of inadequate carnitine in a strict vegetarian has been reported, but there appears little benefit to supplementation for most.

 

Etzioni, A., Levy, J., Nitzan, M., Erde, P., & Benderly, A. (1984). Systemic carnitine deficiency exacerbated by a strict vegetarian dietArchives of disease in childhood59(2), 177-179.

 

 

A 12 year old boy suffered episodes of vomiting, lethargy, and hypoglycaemia from the age of 1 year. Adhering to a vegetarian diet caused an increase in frequency and severity of the attacks. It was found that he was suffering from systemic carnitine deficiency that responded promptly to treatment with L-carnitine.

 

Novakova, K., Kummer, O., Bouitbir, J., Stoffel, S. D., Hoerler-Koerner, U., Bodmer, M., ... & Krähenbühl, S. (2015). Effect of l-carnitine supplementation on the body carnitine pool, skeletal muscle energy metabolism and physical performance in male vegetariansEuropean Journal of Nutrition, 1-11.

 

 

 

Supplementation with L-carnitine significantly increased the total plasma carnitine concentration (24 % in omnivores, 31 % in vegetarians) and the muscle carnitine content in vegetarians (13 %). Despite this increase, P max and VO2max as well as muscle phosphocreatine, lactate and glycogen were not significantly affected by carnitine administration.

 


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#23 Phoenicis

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 12:51 AM

Hey Darryl, I've been making those caninutrient capsules but used acetylcarnitine instead of plain carnation. Wonder if it'll do the job?

However I noticed some liquid formation within the cellulose capsules, do you think the ingredients may be reacting and condensing? Right now I'm just mixing the powder into water and drinking it.

Btw I found that adding the powders into a plastic bag in the correct proportion and then shaking them up does an ok job of mixing. Even if the amount is slightly off in each capsule this shouldn't be huge issue right?

Edited by Phoenicis, 12 March 2015 - 12:55 AM.


#24 Darryl

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 03:48 PM

I used acetylcarnitine too. My understanding is its more bioavailable, and it used to be favored in the longevity community due to the Ames lab acetylcarnitine/lipoic acid studies. 

 

Liquid formation is a bit odd, perhaps its some condensation.If you're storing your powder the refrigerator or freezer and opening the container for a dose, that will happen. I picked a dry day to do the capsule fills and stuffed some spare silica gel in the big bottle. 

 

I don't think half-assed weighing or mixing would make any difference. I'm averaging intakes over a couple capsules a day, seven days a week, and the amounts I selected are rough approximations near dietary intakes in anycase.

 

 



#25 HaloTeK

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 05:41 PM

Darryl, if one eats a diet with ratios similar to 80/10/10, how does one make sure choline levels are adequate if they are close to vegan and don't want to take a choline supplement or PPC choline?   Also, what if you only have one working PEMT gene as listed in this article?  http://blog.choleste...ggs-organs.html

I'm for a higher carb diet I just want to make sure I'm hurting my liver ;)



#26 Darryl

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 08:47 PM

Some choline is used for the synthesis of phosphatidylcholine for cell membranes and the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, and this portion is essential. Other choline is metabolized to the intermediate betaine and used in the methionine cycle, and can be replaced with dietary betaine (perhaps with health benefits).
 
One can get substantial choline from higher fat foods like wheat germ, nuts and seeds, and significant amounts from soy, mushrooms, and cruciferous vegetables. Betaine is abundant in beets and spinach and substantial in wheat and mushrooms.

 

While there are a number of studies demonstrating adverse health consequences from choline and betaine-free diets (eg: intravenous feeding), quantitative measures of our requirements are sparse. The Intititute of Medicine's current Adequate Intake for choline (550 mg for men, 425 mg for women) was set using just two studies. In one study on patients fed intravenously, 100-170 mg choline (as phosphatidylcholine) was adequate to maintain plasma choline levels. Another study on healthy men found 500 mg/d dietary choline adequate, but 13 mg/d inadequate, in preventing increases of liver alanine aminotransferase. No intermediate levels were tested, so the actual requirement is somewhere in that rather wide range. The IoM chose the high-end with a safety margin, but who can fault them given how little was known.

 

I suspect the true requirement is around 200 mg choline + betaine, with a substantial fraction of that being essential choline. This might present an issue for very-low fat vegans who avoid nuts, wheat, soy, mushrooms and greens, but I'd expect they'd have a lot of nutritional issues. My intake has ranged between 200 and 400mg choline + betaine for years, and my ALT has always been fine. Choline deficiency was discovered in intravenously fed patients, and I haven't come across any reports of choline deficiency among free-living individuals eating whole foods; perhaps betaine's sparing quality and the ubiquity of wheat products account for this.

 

Edited by Darryl, 12 March 2015 - 09:00 PM.


#27 tunt01

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 05:21 PM

stuff

 

Darryl:

 

What do you do for selenium?  Nuts?


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#28 Reincarnatian

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 01:58 AM

Hi Darryll

 

What is your opinon on the current RDA choline minimum (550mg)?

 

I nearly eat vegan everyday, and I find it insanely hard even to meet 250mg.

 

How do you meet the RDA. do you supplement?

Or is the science behind the RDA on choline even solid? 

 

“Failure to Thrive” as a Vegan – Could Supplemental Carninutrients Help? by Mark F. McCarty

 

Personally, I take one algal long chain omega-3 gelcap (320 mg DHA + 130 mg EPA), and 2 home filled 'OO' capsules daily, each with:

 

250 mg creatine

125 mg β-alanine

125 mg taurine

50 mg carnitine

100 mcg B12 (cyanocobalamin)

 

Creatine, β-alanine, and carnitine levels approximate omnivore intakes, while taurine, B12, and DHA+EPA levels were chosen based on ecologic & clinical studies and are higher than most omnivore intakes. I haven't noticed any positive effects or negative ones in the year I've taken these, but on the other hand I've been close to pure vegan for 4 years with no lethargy or "failure to thrive". A 365-day supply was $93 for the algal DHA+EPA (equivalent refined fish oil costs half as much), and US$ 35 for the bulk powder capsules, so its cheap insurance.

 

Don't bother with carnosine - it gets digested immediately. β-alanine.is a precursor that elevates tissue carnosine.

 



#29 Darryl

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 02:35 AM

What is your opinon on the current RDA choline minimum (550mg)?

 

 

It's ill defined.

 

 

This is what I wrote in 2014

 

The U.S. Food and Nutrition Board's recommendation for dietary choline (550 mg) may be unnecessarily high for most of the population. All we really know from the study they used is that 13 mg is not enough to prevent elevated serum alanine aminotranferase (ALT), while 700 mg prevented elevated ALT. The true requirement for most lies somewhere in that rather broad range, though there are apparently polymorphisms that impair choline metabolism. I get around 200 mg choline daily (much from beans & broccoli), though higher than average betaine intake probably reduces my requirement. My ALT was most recently near the low end of the normal range (11 IU/L), so for me, 200 mg appears to be enough. 

 

What's been publshed citing that 1998 recommendation?

 

Cho E et al 2007. Dietary choline and betaine and the risk of distal colorectal adenoma in women. Journal of the National Cancer Institute, 99(16), pp.1224-1231.

Increasing choline intake was associated with an elevated risk of colorectal adenoma; the multivariable relative risks (95% CIs) for increasing quintiles of intake, relative to the lowest quintile, were 1.03 (0.90 to 1.18), 1.01 (0.88 to 1.16), 1.23 (1.07 to 1.41), and 1.45 (1.27 to 1.67; Ptrend<.001). Betaine intake had a nonlinear inverse association with colorectal adenoma; the multivariable relative risks (95% CIs) for increasing quintiles of intake were 0.94 (0.83 to 1.07), 0.85 (0.75 to 0.97), 0.86 (0.75 to 0.98), and 0.90 (95% CI = 0.78 to 1.04; Ptrend = .09). Among individual sources of choline, choline from phosphatidylcholine and from sphingomyelin were each positively related to adenoma risk.

 
Xu X et al, 2008. Choline metabolism and risk of breast cancer in a population-based studyThe FASEB Journal22(6), pp.2045-2052.
 
The highest quintile of choline consumption was associated with a lower risk of breast cancer [odds ratio (OR): 0.76; 95% confidence interval (CI): 0.58–1.00] compared with the lowest quintile. 

 

 

Cho E et al 2010. Choline and betaine intake and risk of breast cancer among post-menopausal womenBritish journal of cancer102(3), pp.489-494.

 
Overall, choline (mean±s.d.; 326±61 mg per day) and betaine (104±33 mg per day) intake was not associated with a reduced risk of post-menopausal breast cancer. Participants in the highest quintile of intakes had multivariate relative risks of 1.10 (95% confidence interval (95% CI): 0.99–1.22; P-value, test for trend=0.14) for choline and 0.98 (95% CI: 0.89–1.09; P-value, test for trend=0.96) for betaine, compared with those in the lowest quintiles of intakes.

 

Rajaie S. and Esmaillzadeh A, 2011. Dietary choline and betaine intakes and risk of cardiovascular diseases: review of epidemiological evidenceARYA atherosclerosis7(2), p.78.

Dietary intakes of “choline”/“choline and betaine” were not significantly associated with CVD risk; however, the higher intakes of choline and betaine were associated with higher serum concentrations of CRP, IL-6 and TNF-α. Individuals with high plasma choline levels were obese and had elevated plasma triglycerides, HDL and non-HDL cholesterol levels; whereas high plasma betaine levels were inversely associated with these biochemical markers. Both choline and betaine supplementation resulted in increased blood lipid profiles.

 

 

 

Assuming these studies offer a fair sampling of the true epidemiology, high intake of choline or choline containing foods increases risk of colon cancer, either decreases or increases risk of breast cancer, and increases inflammatory cytokines and blood lipids. About what I'd expect from consuming more eggs than average. 

 

Mind, this is 5 minutes work, not a systematic review. But it isn't a resounding endorsement of higher choline intake.

 

Get your blood work done. Check your ALT. It'll tell you if you're experiencing overt choline deficiency (or might have hepatitis, cirrhosis, NAFLD, etc).


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#30 Leon93

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 05:08 PM

Darryl, I would like to reply to your post about the TAU and CVD relation (Figure 2.2). Wouldn´t cysteine and methionine intake also result in a lower risk (due to taurine biosynthesis)? Would taurine supplementation therefore be useless as long as one insures adequate (perhaps ´ideal´) cysteine and methionine intake to hit the 2000 μmol taurine urinary excretion, whether that would be from plant or animal products?
 

You also said: ´Meanwhile, vegans have about 25% lower plasma levels than even Western omnivores. My 250 mg intake is 2000 μmol, about twice Western omnivore intakes.´
Wouldn´t your 250 mg taurine supplementation push the taurine urinary excretion far beyond 2000 
μmol as some taurine is already biosynthesized (so it being overkill)? Also, how do you know exactly 250 mg taurine is about equal to 2000 μmol? 

And perhaps the Finnish (amongst a few other populations) consume low-quality protein sources low in cysteine and/or methionine which would also explain their low taurine urinary excretion (next to their low taurine intake)?


Edited by Leon93, 26 April 2018 - 05:39 PM.






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