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Arguments for or against the existence of god do not make sense

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#31 The Brain

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 06:14 AM

And he allows
And will watch
Time and time again
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#32 shadowhawk

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 06:32 AM

What are you doing about it?  What are you going to do about it?  Nothing.  What is God going to do about it?  No use talking to you about that.  It must be ok for non theists because that's nature. 



#33 sthira

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 07:51 AM

The motive (which isn't ulterior) is to make life a better experience for all sentient beings. End useless suffering. Since God won't help end useless suffering, and God possibly doesn't care or God possibly doesn't even exist, we'll end useless suffering on our own. To date, science is our best tool to end useless suffering.

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#34 The Brain

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 08:16 AM

What are you doing about it? What are you going to do about it? Nothing. What is God going to do about it? No use talking to you about that. It must be ok for non theists because that's nature.



And he wouldn't stop it happening to your children either

He'd just sit in the corner watching them being sadistically raped, watching the fear in their eyes and the terror on their faces as they grimace and writhe in pain.

He'll sit there watching as the rapists leaves and offer no condolences or comfort.

He'll sit there and expect to be worshipped by that child and be given unconditional love by that child.

He'll sit there and not answer the prayers of that child for that rapist to not return another time.
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#35 shadowhawk

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 08:24 PM

The motive (which isn't ulterior) is to make life a better experience for all sentient beings. End useless suffering. Since God won't help end useless suffering, and God possibly doesn't care or God possibly doesn't even exist, we'll end useless suffering on our own. To date, science is our best tool to end useless suffering.

 

A great deal of human suffering is caused by humans themselves .  As king of the earth humans also cause a lot of the sufferings (evil) of the entire earth and its creatures.  That is if you don’t believe suffering is just another word for natural selection in which case suffering could be considered perhaps a kind of good.  The weak should die and to stop suffering is a weak Christian idea.  No doubt suffering exists and has been described by Christians as the lack or misuse of the good.  God does not think evil suffering is good but sometimes suffering is a gateway for the good.  We see suffering and it inspires us to practice charity and love.  Even God takes on suffering in the Christian view to bring about the good.  We sometimes have to experience pain in order to be healed with our modern medicine.  Pain can heal us spiritually if we respond to it correctly.  It can also harden us.

Suffering is a moral issue and Science cannot determine moral issues.  Science is a method of discovery of how things work, can also be used in an evil way and may cause our extinction.  It will be our moral choice to do so or not.  Not scientific.  A good read os C.S. Lewis, The Problem Of Pain.  http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/0060652969

“Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself”
 C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain



 


Edited by shadowhawk, 21 May 2015 - 08:29 PM.

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#36 The Brain

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 08:57 PM

What are you doing about it? What are you going to do about it? Nothing. What is God going to do about it? No use talking to you about that. It must be ok for non theists because that's nature.

And he wouldn't stop it happening to your children either

He'd just sit in the corner watching them being sadistically raped, watching the fear in their eyes and the terror on their faces as they grimace and writhe in pain.

He'll sit there watching as the rapists leaves and offer no condolences or comfort.

He'll sit there and expect to be worshipped by that child and be given unconditional love by that child.

He'll sit there and not answer the prayers of that child for that rapist to not return another time.

God is a dirty pedo pervert and loves watching children being raped.

How many children around the world tonight will be raped and sexually abused while an all knowing god sits and watches???

Tomorrow night???

The night after???

It must be how god gets off ?

Edited by The Brain, 21 May 2015 - 08:58 PM.

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#37 pamojja

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 08:57 PM

“Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself”
 C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

 

Oh, the ending of re-becoming. Sounds like the Buddha again.



#38 shadowhawk

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 09:06 PM

 

“Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself”
 C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

 

Oh, the ending of re-becoming. Sounds like the Buddha again.

 

Well I like some things about Buddha but I am speaking as a Christian here.



#39 pamojja

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 09:19 PM

Suffering is a moral issue and Science cannot determine moral issues.  Science is a method of discovery of how things work, can also be used in an evil way and may cause our extinction.  It will be our moral choice to do so or not.  Not scientific.

 

There is suffering.

There is a cause for suffering.

There is the ceasing of the cause.

And there is a path to this end.

 

Where is the dichotomy in this at the same time moral and scientific approach already 5000 years old?

 

 


Edited by pamojja, 21 May 2015 - 09:20 PM.


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#40 shadowhawk

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 09:38 PM

I don't think I said that.  However the same cosmos existed 5000 years ago as today with its becoming s so I see no reason it could not be said then as now.  Do you?



#41 shadowhawk

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 09:41 PM

I don't think I said that.  However the same cosmos existed 5000 years ago as today with its becoming s so I see no reason it could not be said then as now.  Do you?  Something both moral and scientific can be said about the current state of affairs and there is no contradiction in doing that.

 



#42 The Brain

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 09:53 PM

Don't want to comment on god's obvious sexual perversion Shadowdork.

Surely it's not that hard to make an apology for god for little kids being sadistically and ritually sexually abused.

Sitting in the corner watching them being defiled, even little babies, children being shared by groups if pedophiles, your god knows it all, he knows their name and where they live, he watches them every night.

How many children tonight while you sleep will god watch being raped, raped for the first time or raped for the hundredth time???
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#43 shadowhawk

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 10:12 PM

Why don't you stop setting on the corner.  You seem so interested in the subject and it is very clear how Christians feel about it.



#44 The Brain

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 10:46 PM

When was the last time you prayed to your god asking him to prevent child sexual abuse ?

Have you even once ?

I doubt it, I doubt you'd even thought about it.
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#45 Dakman

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 10:55 PM

Why don't you stop setting on the corner.  You seem so interested in the subject and it is very clear how Christians feel about it.

Yes it's very clear how christians feel about it……every day there is a minister or priest or other christian leader in the news for sexually abusing children

 

 

 

It's clear they love it  :unsure:



#46 shadowhawk

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 11:39 PM

 

Why don't you stop setting on the corner.  You seem so interested in the subject and it is very clear how Christians feel about it.

Yes it's very clear how christians feel about it……every day there is a minister or priest or other christian leader in the news for sexually abusing children

 

 

 

It's clear they love it  :unsure:

 

Total nonsense.  The Christian Church is by far the largest human organization in the world.  This includes countries.  That there are some bad acting people who call themselves Christians is to be expected but Christianity does not advocate nor approve in any way Child Molestation.  You are far more likely to be molested by a school teacher in a public school than a priest and no one would accuse the schools of being for child molestation.  It is very clear how Christians feel about it.  It is a major sin and ministers and priests who commit it are severely disciplined.  So this charge is without any merit. 



#47 Dakman

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 12:18 AM

The christian church by far harbors the most pedophiles of any religious organization, with it's leaders covering up these sins.

 

Not reporting, not stopping, not admitting.

 

Clearly christians are ok with this as it's only pressure in recent times that has brought the subject to be faced.

 

How many christians will sexually abuse a child today?



#48 sthira

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 02:20 AM

All together now we pray: Dear God, End Useless Suffering Now.

It's a simple prayer. In fact, it's so easy even the omniscient one might understand. So do it, pray it, all you bickering idiots. Pray it. One world, one voice, one love, all together now, pray this and hold your heads down low because God loves submission and it's respectful:

Dear God, End Useless Suffering Now.

#49 The Brain

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 03:34 AM

Dear God, End Useless Suffering Now.

#50 The Brain

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 04:54 AM

Attached File  image.jpg   115.52KB   0 downloads


Hmmmmmm

#51 pamojja

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 10:37 AM

 

I'm tired of hearing theists citing the origin of the universe as evidence of god's existence, and i'm also tired to hearing atheists and anti-theists trying to give a logical explanation to this to refute theists (even when our knowledge of physics cannot explain this).

 

Can anybody give a good logical argument for or against this??

 

I think this thread gives many good examples of the irrationality behind justifying either believe.

 

While the best justification to me is a person who somehow perceptible has lessened his own suffering, and thereby a bid of those around him.

 

 

 

I met Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Agnostics, .. and Buddhists alike who met this criteria.

 

And I met a majority of the same, who's believes are too shallow do bring a real difference to their and other lives. But prefer to spend their time in beating others up, like in this thread.



#52 pamojja

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 12:45 PM


I'm tired of hearing theists citing the origin of the universe as evidence of god's existence, and i'm also tired to hearing atheists and anti-theists trying to give a logical explanation to this to refute theists (even when our knowledge of physics cannot explain this).

 

Can anybody give a good logical argument for or against this??

 

But I can give a good logical argument against asking for logical reasons for or against the existence in god.

 

 

It only invites those shallow types who are ready to fight for their believe or disbelieves - while one could know that logical investigation can't replace the power of believe itself.

 

The power of believe - irrespective for or against something like God - first helps to have the guts to acknowledge the existence of suffering in oneself, then others - and how much, just for example, love can unbind both of that.
 

 

It would be better to investigate pragmatic reasons - why both believe or no believe - would give good results experienced in the here and now, and thereafter.

 

The thread title sums it up nicely:

Arguments for or against the existence of god do not make sense

Edited by pamojja, 22 May 2015 - 12:50 PM.


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#53 sthira

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 01:37 PM

It probably doesn't matter very much whether God exists or not. This is our world, the world we inherited, we live our brief lives here in comparative abundance, good health, and freedom, and then we pass it on to next generations. Hopefully we make things a little better for those around us, and those coming up after us. We strive to make the world a better place with less suffering through science, education, and simple acts of kindness. Just being sweet to other people around us really goes a long way. We fail often, we do okay often, and we do this with or without the existence of God.

#54 Dakman

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 09:20 PM

The quicker the human mind can evolve past needing a god the better for mankind  :)



#55 shadowhawk

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 12:41 AM

Faith is not blind belief that Theists have.  Here is what faith is.

 

Faith is belief in a person or thing without complete evidence.  Everything has incomplete evidence, therefore we all live by faith.  Faith is not blind, but intelligent and commences with the conviction and commitment of the mind based on adequate but incomplete evidence.

American biblical scholar Archibald Thomas Robertson stated that the Greek word pistis used for faith in the New Testament (over two hundred forty times), and rendered "assurance" in Acts 17:31 (KJV), is "an old verb to furnish, used regularly by Demosthenes for bringing forward evidence."  To be persuaded by belief that has warrant, a trust in and commitment to what we have reason to believe is true.  It is belief that the hypotheses we hold will be substantiated in the future, in fact.  Trust.  Faith should be defined as “trusting, holding to, and acting on what one has good reason to believe is true in the face of incomplete evidence and difficulties.”

“Faith in Christianity is based on the work and teachings of Jesus Christ. Christianity declares not to be distinguished by faith, but by the object of its faith. Rather than being passive, faith leads to an active life aligned with the ideals and the example of the life of Jesus. It sees the mystery of God and his grace and seeks to know and become obedient to God. To a Christian, faith is not static but causes one to learn more of God and grow, and has its origin in God.

In Christianity, faith causes change as it seeks a greater understanding of God. Faith is not fideism or simple obedience to a set of rules or statements.  Before Christians have faith, they must understand in whom and in what they have faith. Without understanding, there cannot be true faith, and that understanding is built on the foundation of the community of believers, the scriptures and traditions and on the personal experiences of the believer. In English translations of the New Testament, the word faith generally corresponds to the Greek noun (pistis) or the Greek verb (pisteuo), meaning "to trust, to have confidence, faithfulness, to be reliable, to assure".”

http://en.wikipedia....Faith#Criticism











 



#56 The Brain

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 01:53 AM

Yeah sure, like anyone is going to watch all that, I only read the first three sentences of your post before wandering off.

#57 The Brain

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 01:59 AM

Hey Shadowdork, how many christians around the world last night do you think raped one of their children ?
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#58 shadowhawk

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 01:59 AM

Of course what else could one expect from the the brain who never says anything.  :) 



#59 sthira

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 10:43 AM


I think if there is a god, then you'll feel it rather than think it. You'll "know" and if you relate your quiet, intimate knowing to someone else they'll easily blast it down. To nothing left. But the twist, the turn of it -- G-d is all inward, mysterious, beautiful and ineffable. Speak it, it dries up, flies away. Some religions don't even utter the word -- or leave out letters of it -- since to utter it is to label it, define it, limit the infinity. Even these words -- pah... Nothing. Stay agnostic and open. No one knows shit, and those claiming insider knowledge are predictable liars and thieves.

Ok, but where's the supernatural in that? Eckhard Tolle just calls that being/presence. "God" is simply being here now, nothing supernatural about that..


Jung wrote that instead of making God transcendent -- out there, past our abilities, supernatural -- God may be accessed internally. God, supernatural -- that is, literally beyond description and unspeakable (yet even the words "supernatural" and beyond description and unspeakable place limits on the infinite) by its very definition God is "unreal" non existent -- yet paradoxically God may be explored internally. God, unreal, transcendent, is also inside your brain.

One of Jung's famous comments is that every night while we dream we have a chance of an "eucharist." That is, we may experience the sacred supernatural within varieties of dreams, or numinous encounters. And when that "happens" (and it will happen to you -- particularly in times of deep personal suffering and tragedy when your ego becomes fragile). This dream state, he wrote, is a physical psychological experience: neurochemistry. But you can't really dismiss it as "only a dream" as if that meant the experience was not real or wasn't an experience of something actual. It is both real and not real, perhaps like God itself. The dream becomes both supernatural and natural all at once. The imagery in the dream is of something both real and unreal. This was one reason Jung wasn't very popular with theologians. Jung attempted to bridge the gap between the supernatural beyond and natural neurochemistry inside the brain during a dream.

Jung's ideas are fascinating. We may also experience God through the collective, find God more easily through psychedelics, meditation, fasting, and in other ways designed to get the brain out of reality and into "beyond". And maybe closer to madness. Insanity. I think it's interesting that some people may learn to develop these techniques, yet still retain control over everyday reality. Access to divine becomes a skill, a practiced technique, and then God, the supernatural and natural, may become more.

To me it's a bit of a mind fuck, and often seems quite dangerous particularly to young, developing brains like those in their teens or early twenties because attempting to access the unreal may lead to some forms of psychosis or schizophrenia. There's a reason for monasticism, I think.
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#60 shadowhawk

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 09:08 PM

In Christian thought God is both Kataphatic and Apophatic.  That which can be seen and that which is in divine darkness.  I discussed this in "Is There Evidence For Christianity?"  This is quite different than saying "unreal" or "non existent." 


Edited by shadowhawk, 23 May 2015 - 09:10 PM.






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