15 replies to this topic

[tfor]

There's a doctor at youtube who makes all kinds of instructional videos and in one of them he basically says that

eggs are unhealthy cause they contain choline and choline causes cancer. I thought that eggs are healthy cause they

contain protein and healthy fats and so on. I also thought choline is good cause people even take choline as a supplement.

I am getting really frustrated cause it's like everything you think is healthy could as well be unhealthy. Then why even bother

and try to eat health!?

 

[ceridwen]

This Dr preaches a vegan diet. A vegan diet is the healthiest diet. He might be right?

[Darryl]

Judge for yourself - here are the cited sources on the choline connection:

 

Ackerstaff E et al. 2001. Detection of increased choline compounds with proton nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy subsequent to malignant transformation of human prostatic epithelial cells. Cancer research, 61(9), 3599-3603.

Nanni C et al 2007. 11C-choline vs. 18F-FDG PET/CT in assessing bone involvement in patients with multiple myeloma. World J Surg Oncol, 5, 68.

Lee JE et al. 2010. Choline and betaine intake and the risk of colorectal cancer in men.Cancer Epidemiology Biomarkers & Prevention, 19(3), 884-887.

Richman EL et al. 2012. Choline intake and risk of lethal prostate cancer: incidence and survival. The American journal of clinical nutrition, 96(4), 855-863.

 

I think the evidence is weak. In an era when health-conscious folks avoided egg yolks, choline intake is largely a marker of ignoring health recommendations, generally. Tumors often have unusual metabolism in a few respects, but that doesn't necessarily mean the inputs to their altered pathways are causative.

 

Personally, I think that there's stronger evidence for choline in diabetes etiology, in that one can prevent metabolic disorders via low-choline diets, and high choline diets seem to increase incidence.

 

Raubenheimer PJ et al.  2006. A choline-deficient diet exacerbates fatty liver but attenuates insulin resistance and glucose intolerance in mice fed a high-fat diet. Diabetes, 55(7), 2015-2020.

Konstantinova SV et al. 2008. Divergent associations of plasma choline and betaine with components of metabolic syndrome in middle age and elderly men and women. The Journal of nutrition, 138(5), 914-920.

Wu G et al 2012. Choline deficiency attenuates body weight gain and improves glucose tolerance in ob/ob mice. Journal of obesity, 2012.

Yan J e al. 201). Plasma choline metabolites associate with metabolic stress among young overweight men in a genotype-specific manner. Nutrition & diabetes,2(10), e49.

Li,Y et al. 2013. Egg consumption and risk of cardiovascular diseases and diabetes: a meta-analysis. Atherosclerosis,229(2), 524-530.

Zeisel SH. 2013. Metabolic crosstalk between choline/1-carbon metabolism and energy homeostasis. Clinical Chemistry and Laboratory Medicine, 51(3), 467-475.

Chen Y et al. 2015. Higher serum concentrations of betaine rather than choline is associated with better profiles of DXA-derived body fat and fat distribution in Chinese adults. International Journal of Obesity, 39(3), 465-471.

 

If you delve into the literature used for current choline recommendations, its sparse. In one study on patients fed intravenously, 100-170 mg choline (as phosphatidylcholine) was adequate to maintain plasma choline levels. The other study on healthy men found 500 mg/d dietary choline adequate, but 13 mg/d inadequate, in preventing increases of liver alanine aminotransferase. No intermediate levels were tested, so the actual requirement is somewhere in that rather wide range. Personally, I don't worry at all about choline intake, but ingest far more betaine (mostly from spinach and beets), which serves a similar role in methionine transmethylation. in animal studies, the adverse effects of choline deficiency are also prevented by glycine or creatine supplementation, so choline may only be conditionally essential.

 

Barakat HA & Hamza AH. 2012. Glycine alleviates liver injury induced by deficiency in methionine and or choline in rats. Eur Rev Med Pharmacol Sci,16(6), 728-736.

Deminice R. et al. 2015. Creatine supplementation prevents fatty liver in rats fed choline-deficient diet: a burden of one-carbon and fatty acid metabolism. The Journal of nutritional biochemistry, 26(4), 391-397.

Edited by Darryl, 09 July 2015 - 03:32 AM.

[niner]

That doctor is a vegan ideologue who plays pretty fast and loose with the science.  His real interest is converting people to his religion rather than disseminating truth.

[misterE]

I think that the real problem with eggs is the Arachidonic-acid content. Egg-yolks are the main source of arachidonic-acid.

[ceridwen]

What does that do.

[HaloTeK]

Judge for yourself - here are the cited sources on the choline connection:

 

Ackerstaff E et al. 2001. Detection of increased choline compounds with proton nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy subsequent to malignant transformation of human prostatic epithelial cells. Cancer research, 61(9), 3599-3603.

Nanni C et al 2007. 11C-choline vs. 18F-FDG PET/CT in assessing bone involvement in patients with multiple myeloma. World J Surg Oncol, 5, 68.

Lee JE et al. 2010. Choline and betaine intake and the risk of colorectal cancer in men.Cancer Epidemiology Biomarkers & Prevention, 19(3), 884-887.

Richman EL et al. 2012. Choline intake and risk of lethal prostate cancer: incidence and survival. The American journal of clinical nutrition, 96(4), 855-863.

 

I think the evidence is weak. In an era when health-conscious folks avoided egg yolks, choline intake is largely a marker of ignoring health recommendations, generally. Tumors often have unusual metabolism in a few respects, but that doesn't necessarily mean the inputs to their altered pathways are causative.

 

Personally, I think that there's stronger evidence for choline in diabetes etiology, in that one can prevent metabolic disorders via low-choline diets, and high choline diets seem to increase incidence.

 

Raubenheimer PJ et al.  2006. A choline-deficient diet exacerbates fatty liver but attenuates insulin resistance and glucose intolerance in mice fed a high-fat diet. Diabetes, 55(7), 2015-2020.

Konstantinova SV et al. 2008. Divergent associations of plasma choline and betaine with components of metabolic syndrome in middle age and elderly men and women. The Journal of nutrition, 138(5), 914-920.

Wu G et al 2012. Choline deficiency attenuates body weight gain and improves glucose tolerance in ob/ob mice. Journal of obesity, 2012.

Yan J e al. 201). Plasma choline metabolites associate with metabolic stress among young overweight men in a genotype-specific manner. Nutrition & diabetes,2(10), e49.

Li,Y et al. 2013. Egg consumption and risk of cardiovascular diseases and diabetes: a meta-analysis. Atherosclerosis,229(2), 524-530.

Zeisel SH. 2013. Metabolic crosstalk between choline/1-carbon metabolism and energy homeostasis. Clinical Chemistry and Laboratory Medicine, 51(3), 467-475.

Chen Y et al. 2015. Higher serum concentrations of betaine rather than choline is associated with better profiles of DXA-derived body fat and fat distribution in Chinese adults. International Journal of Obesity, 39(3), 465-471.

 

If you delve into the literature used for current choline recommendations, its sparse. In one study on patients fed intravenously, 100-170 mg choline (as phosphatidylcholine) was adequate to maintain plasma choline levels. The other study on healthy men found 500 mg/d dietary choline adequate, but 13 mg/d inadequate, in preventing increases of liver alanine aminotransferase. No intermediate levels were tested, so the actual requirement is somewhere in that rather wide range. Personally, I don't worry at all about choline intake, but ingest far more betaine (mostly from spinach and beets), which serves a similar role in methionine transmethylation. in animal studies, the adverse effects of choline deficiency are also prevented by glycine or creatine supplementation, so choline may only be conditionally essential.

 

Barakat HA & Hamza AH. 2012. Glycine alleviates liver injury induced by deficiency in methionine and or choline in rats. Eur Rev Med Pharmacol Sci,16(6), 728-736.

Deminice R. et al. 2015. Creatine supplementation prevents fatty liver in rats fed choline-deficient diet: a burden of one-carbon and fatty acid metabolism. The Journal of nutritional biochemistry, 26(4), 391-397.

 

What you do you think about the people who don't carry great genes to convert the betaine to choline and dont eat a lot of animal products?

[Darryl]

Betaine isn't converted to choline: choline is converted into betaine in the methionine transmethylation cycle.

 

 

This means that the only absolute requirement for choline is for acetylcholine and phosphatidylcholine synthesis, but I haven't found good sources estimating turnover of these, or choline requirements when betaine replete from the diet.

Edited by Darryl, 09 July 2015 - 06:57 PM.

[aza]

I think that the real problem with eggs is the Arachidonic-acid content. Egg-yolks are the main source of arachidonic-acid.

 

I don't think is bad in all circumstances, the only limit i've really found is in this. http://journals.camb...4063bbf512011e1 Dietary arachidonic acid: harmful, harmless or helpful?

 

"In contrast to what might be predicted studies assessing a range of immune functions and inflammatory markers in healthy adults in response to increased intake of arachidonic acid (up to 1·5 g/d) have not identified any major effects"

"However, the earlier study by Seyberth et al. suggests that higher intakes of arachidonic acid should be approached with caution. Furthermore, there is no information on the impact of increased arachidonic acid supply in disease. It is possible that inflammatory processes that already exist within an individual could be exacerbated by providing exogenous arachidonic acid. However, the discovery of novel anti-inflammatory mediators produced from arachidonic acid and theidentification ofhitherto unknown anti-inflammatory actions of mediators previously considered to be pro-inflammatory in nature indicate first, the complexity of this system and, second, that predicting the effect that increased arachidonic acid supply might have is difficult."

 

"It is important to note that a role for arachidonic acid in neurological development has been identified, that arachidonic acid-derived eicosanoids are not confined to pathology but have many physiological roles, that human breast milk contains arachidonic acid, that infant formulas, which include arachidonic acid (and DHA), are associated with improved growth and development and that formula containing arachidonic acid (and DHA) has been shown to enable preterm infants to achieve immune development similar to that seen with breast-milk feeding."

 

"These observations suggest an important role for arachidonic acid in the normal growth and development of infants and demonstrate that harmful actions are not seen as a consequence to its pro-vision, at least when given in combination with DHA."

 

"taken together with earlier studies, this study suggests that, rather than being harmful, moderately increased arachidonic acid intake is probably harmless in healthy adults, although the effect of

intakes above 1·5 g/d are not known and the effect of increased intake in diseased individuals is not known."

 

Also, according to the paper the average consumption of AA in western diets is only around 50 to 300 mg/d. So i doubt that its a significant issue.

 

This is also interesting 

http://www.karger.co...Abstract/236447 Arachidonic Acid Supplementation Decreases P300 Latency and Increases P300 Amplitude of Event-Related Potentials in Healthy Elderly Men

 

"in the present study, we examined the effects of arachidonic acid (ARA) on age-related event-related potential (ERP) changes in 25 healthy elderly men. This study was performed using a double-blind crossover design. The subjects were administered 600 mg/day of ARA-enriched triglyceride (SUNTGA40S; containing 240 mg ARA) in capsules or the same amount of olive oil in capsules as an inactive placebo for 1 month. ERPs were measured before capsule administration and after 1 month of administration, and P300 latency and amplitude were also measured. In subjects administered 240 mg/day ARA, P300 latency was significantly shorter, and P300 amplitude was significantly higher than in those administered olive oil capsules, and they exhibited a significant increase in ARA content in serum phospholipids. These findings suggest that supplementation of ARA can improve cognitive function in healthy elderly men."

 

Based on the average estimate from earlier, that would mean the men were taking somewhere from 290 to 540mg to get that effect.

Also note, im not saying that 1.5g is the optimal amount or healthier then a lower amount. Its just what i use as a hard limit (for example, i generally wont eat more then 2-3 eggs). I dont think enough is known to definitively say how much the optimal amount is. Although personally, i would guess somewhere between 300mg and 800g.

[aza]

Oh, and tfor. Apparently seafood increases TMAO more then meat and eggs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10456680 Dietary precursors of trimethylamine in man: a pilot study.

Of 46 different foods investigated, only fish and other sea-products gave rise to significant increases in urinary trimethylamine and N-oxide. Ingestion of fruits, vegetables, cereal and dairy produce, and meats had no measurable effects

 

Theres also this http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/6842395 Formation of methylamines from ingested choline and lecithin.

"Twenty-seven millimoles of choline chloride, choline stearate or lecithin were administered to healthy human subjects. It was found that these treatments markedly increased the urinary excretion of TMA, DMA and MMA, with choline chloride having the greatest effect."

 

"Rats were treated with 2 mmol/kg b.wt. of choline chloride or lecithin, and it was found that these treatments significantly increased urinary TMA excretion and did not alter DMA or MMA excretion. Our choline chloride preparation contained no MMA, DMA or TMA; however, it was found that our choline stearate and all the commercially available lecithins tested were contaminated with methylamines. Prior removal of methylamines from our lecithin preparation minimized the effect of oral administration of this compound on methylamine excretion in urine of rats and humans."

 

Correct me if im wrong, but i think this means that uncontaminated lecithin in eggs could have a much smaller effect on TMAO then supplimented choline chloride

 

Chris masterjohn has an interesting statement about blood levels of choline here.

http://www.westonapr...-heart-disease/

 

"In order to even begin supporting such a hypothesis, we would have to first see to what degree eating seafood leads to the accumulation of TMAO in the blood, and here we only have urinary data.  If the kidneys efficiently dispose of TMAO into the urine after eating seafood, TMAO may be unlikely to accumulate in the blood for any length of time.

Indeed, the massive increases in urinary trimethylamine and TMAO following meals rich in seafood suggests that our kidneys excrete these compounds very efficiently.

So how, then, should we interpret the correlation between heart disease risk and plasma concentrations of choline, betaine and TMAO in humans?

Blood levels of choline are currently considered an emerging marker for destabilization of coronary plaques or ischemia in acute coronary syndrome, as reviewed here.  During the process of blood clotting, inflammatory enzymes release choline from membrane phospholipids in order to also generate phosphatidic acid, which is used as an important signaling molecule.  Elevated blood levels of choline, then, and perhaps its metabolite betaine, could simply reflect an inflammatory or pro-clotting environment."

 

The study he links to is this one http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20214535  Choline in acute coronary syndrome: an emerging biomarker with implications for the integrated assessment of plaque vulnerability.

 

I have also heard that gut bacteria plays a role.

[aza]

Doh. "Although personally, i would guess somewhere between 300mg and 800MG."

[misterE]

What does that do.

 

Arachidonic-acid (AA) is an essential-fatty-acid, that plays a vital role in health and development.

 

AA is made from the omega-6 fat called linoleic-acid (LA). The problems occur when we take it too much LA and premade AA... and believe me, people in industrialized countries (especially the USA) take in way too much of these fats. LA comes mainly from vegetable-oils, nuts, seeds and avocadoes, not only is LA the precursor to AA, but it also inhibits the conversion of alpha-linolenic-acid (an omega-3 fat) into the beneficial EPA/DHA long-chain omega-3 fats (the kind that are found in fish-oils). AA mainly comes from egg-yolks, organ-meats, chicken, turkey, pork and farmed-fish, and is used by the body to create eicosanoids that increased blood-clotting, inflammation and estrogen.

 

LA and AA also generate free-radicals because of the molecular structure of these fats. Omega-3 eicosanoids have the opposite effects, but the consumption of omega-6 far outweighs the consumption of omega-3 in industrialized countries, 20 to 1.

 

Aspirin is known for reducing inflammation, heart-disease, cancer and diabetes. The way that aspirin works is by inhibiting the eicosanoids generated from AA.

Edited by misterE, 10 July 2015 - 03:35 PM.

[vader]

Would cdp-choline also rise cancer risk?

[jack black]

OMG, I just learned about this association of choline with cancer too.

I know someone who eats tons of eggs, need to let that person know.

[Benko]

• Choline is a vitamin-like essential nutrient and a methyl donor involved in many physiological processes, including normal metabolism and transport of lipids, methylation reactions, and neurotransmittersynthesis. (More information)

http://lpi.oregonsta...trients/choline

 

 

[jack black]

• Choline is a vitamin-like essential nutrient and a methyl donor involved in many physiological processes, including normal metabolism and transport of lipids, methylation reactions, and neurotransmittersynthesis. (More information)

http://lpi.oregonsta...trients/choline</p>

Sure, but it doesn't prove it's harmless in excess. Water is essential for life but will kill you in no time in excess.

Edited by jack black, 06 August 2017 - 04:22 PM.