26 replies to this topic

[Barfly]

Hello everyone,

 

for a while now I have been troubleshooting symptoms of low energy and drive, waking up tired, low number of fully alert, wakeful hours per day and sluggishness in general and finally i decided to take some tests;

 

So far I have had general blood test done (sugar level, cholesterol, electrolytes etc), thyroid hormones and total testosterone tests and only result that seems rather negative is total testosterone at 8.3 nmol/l (239 ng/dl) which seems rather low and is close to the bottom of the referent range.

 

So, do you think such, rather low, testosterone could be the main culprit of my low energy and other symptoms?

 

Any other tests it would be wise to do now?

 

And finally, any good tips on what to do to get my testosterone levels in better shape?

 

My first set of measurements is to go back to lifitng heavy and get all the possible supplements that I know are correlated to testosterone production like zinc, boron, magnesium, creatine, d3, cholesterol from eggs, ashwagandha, forskolin and perhaps tongkat ali.

 

Anything else I can try?

 

Thank you in advance for all the help, all the best

[Turnbuckle]

Tribulus terrestris (possibly) and DHEA.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 16 September 2015 - 12:52 PM.

[Blackkzeus]

You could be suffering from mitochondrial dysfunction due to inflammation. If you don't feel awake during the day time it possibly means that your circadian rhythm is imbalanced. Your circadian rhythm is controlled by your hypothalamus and your hypothalamus may not be working correctly due to inflammation.

I have the same problem as you, Without supplements I'd sleep most of the day. What helps me out are anti-inflammatory supplements like turmeric, NAC, and ubiquinol. I'd also recommend mitochondrial enhancers like C60 and mitoq.

[gamesguru]

The effect of Ginger on serum testosterone of infertile men

serum testosterone up 17.7% ... sperm count up 16.2% ... sperm motility up 47.3% ... sperm viability up 40.7% ... ejaculate volume up 36.1%

 

Also, consider cutting green tea extract out if taking

Green tea polyphenols inhibit testosterone production in rat Leydig cells

 

The inhibitory effects of GTE may be explained by the action of its principal component, EGCG, and the presence of a gallate group in its structure seems important for its high efficacy in inhibiting testosterone production.  The mechanisms underlying the effects of GTE and EGCG involve the inhibition of the PKA/PKC signalling pathways, as well as the inhibition of P450 side-chain cleavage enzyme and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase function

 

Serum test exhibits a stochastic rhythm in response to ejaculation, about once every 8 days is ideal (according to this one study).

[Area-1255]

Barfly

 

It depends on what is causing the issues..if your testosterone is low because of high estrogen then you need to get that taken care of or the proportion will never be right and you will still feel like shit no matter how much you rise the androgen level. 

I would look into grape seed extract coupled with Rhodiola Rosea as well as Ashwagandha. 

GSE lowers aromatase expression semi-permanently and Rhodiola long-term reduces 5-HT3R expression and estrogen receptor {alpha} expression. 

The combination increases innate immunity to estrogen issues AS IT APPLIES. 

 

 

Cancer Res. 2006 Jun 1;66(11):5960-7.

Grape seed extract is an aromatase inhibitor and a suppressor of aromatase expression.

Kijima I1, Phung S, Hur G, Kwok SL, Chen S.

Author information

 

Abstract

Aromatase is the enzyme that converts androgen to estrogen. It is expressed at higher levels in breast cancer tissues than normal breast tissues. Grape seed extract (GSE) contains high levels of procyanidin dimers that have been shown in our laboratory to be potent inhibitors of aromatase. In this study, GSE was found to inhibit aromatase activity in a dose-dependent manner and reduce androgen-dependent tumor growth in an aromatase-transfected MCF-7 (MCF-7aro) breast cancer xenograft model, agreeing with our previous findings. We have also examined the effect of GSE on aromatase expression. Reverse transcription-PCR experiments showed that treatment with 60 mug/mL of GSE suppressed the levels of exon I.3-, exon PII-, and exon I.6-containing aromatase mRNAs in MCF-7 and SK-BR-3 cells. The levels of exon I.1-containing mRNA, however, did not change with GSE treatment. Transient transfection experiments with luciferase-aromatase promoter I.3/II or I.4 reporter vectors showed the suppression of the promoter activity in a dose-dependent manner. The GSE treatment also led to the down-regulation of two transcription factors, cyclic AMP-responsive element binding protein-1 (CREB-1) and glucocorticoid receptor (GR). CREB-1 and GR are known to up-regulate aromatase gene expression through promoters I.3/II and I.4, respectively. We believe that these results are exciting in that they show GSE to be potentially useful in the prevention/treatment of hormone-dependent breast cancer through the inhibition of aromatase activity as well as its expression.

PMID:   16740737   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]    Free full text

 

Mechanism of action of Rhodiola, salidroside, tyrosol and triandrin in isolated neuroglial cells: An interactive pathway analysis of the downstream effects using RNA microarray data

 

[gamesguru]

J Nutr. 2001 Dec;131(12):3288-93.

White button mushroom phytochemicals inhibit aromatase activity and breast cancer cell proliferation.

Grube BJ¹, Eng ET, Kao YC, Kwon A, Chen S.

Author information

Abstract

Estrogen is a major factor in the development of breast cancer. In situ estrogen production by aromatase/estrogen synthetase in breast cancer plays a dominant role in tumor proliferation. Because natural compounds such as flavones and isoflavones have been shown to be inhibitors of aromatase, it is thought that vegetables that contain these phytochemicals can inhibit aromatase activity and suppress breast cancer cell proliferation. Heat-stable extracts were prepared from vegetables and screened for their ability to inhibit aromatase activity in a human placental microsome assay. The white button mushroom (species Agaricus bisporus) suppressed aromatase activity dose dependently. Enzyme kinetics demonstrated mixed inhibition, suggesting the presence of multiple inhibitors or more than one inhibitory mechanism. "In cell" aromatase activity and cell proliferation were measured using MCF-7aro, an aromatase-transfected breast cancer cell line. Phytochemicals in the mushroom aqueous extract inhibited aromatase activity and proliferation of MCF-7aro cells. These results suggest that diets high in mushrooms may modulate the aromatase activity and function in chemoprevention in postmenopausal women by reducing the in situ production of estrogen.

PMID:1 1739882 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text

 

J Nutr. 2007 Jun;137(6):1472-7.

Dietary supplementation with white button mushroom enhances natural killer cell activity in C57BL/6 mice.

Wu D¹, Pae M, Ren Z, Guo Z, Smith D, Meydani SN.

Author information

Abstract

Mushrooms are reported to possess antitumor, antiviral, and antibacterial properties. These effects of mushrooms are suggested to be due to their ability to modulate immune cell functions. However, a majority of these studies evaluated the effect of administering extracts of exotic mushrooms through parental routes, whereas little is known about the immunological effect of a dietary intake of white button mushrooms, which represent 90% of mushrooms consumed in the U.S. In this study, we fed C57BL/6 mice a diet containing 0, 2, or 10% (wt/wt) white button mushroom powder for 10 wk and examined indices of innate and cell-mediated immunity. Mushroom supplementation enhanced natural killer (NK) cell activity, and IFNgamma and tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNFalpha) production, but only tended to increase IL-2 (P = 0.09) and did not affect IL-10 production by splenocytes. There were significant correlations between NK activity and production of IFNgamma (r = 0.615, P < 0.001) and TNFalpha (r = 0.423, P = 0.032) in splenocytes. Mushroom supplementation did not affect macrophage production of IL-6, TNFalpha, prostaglandin E(2), nitric oxide, and H(2)O(2), nor did it alter the percentage of total T cells, helper T cells (CD4(+)), cytotoxic or suppressive T cells (CD8(+)), regulatory T cells (CD4(+)/CD25(+)), total B cells, macrophages, and NK cells in spleens. These results suggest that increased intake of white button mushrooms may promote innate immunity against tumors and viruses through the enhancement of a key component, NK activity. This effect might be mediated through increased IFNgamma and TNFalpha production.PMID: 17513409 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text

 

Food Chem. 2014 Apr 1;148:92-6. doi: 10.1016/j.foodchem.2013.10.015. Epub 2013 Oct 14.

Anti-inflammatory effects of five commercially available mushroom species determined in lipopolysaccharide and interferon-γ activated murine macrophages.

Gunawardena D¹, Bennett L, Shanmugam K, King K, Williams R, Zabaras D, Head R, Ooi L, Gyengesi E, Münch G.

Author information

Abstract

Inflammation is a well-known contributing factor to many age-related chronic diseases. One of the possible strategies to suppress inflammation is the employment of functional foods with anti-inflammatory properties. Edible mushrooms are attracting more and more attention as functional foods since they are rich in bioactive compounds, but their anti-inflammatory properties and the effect of food processing steps on this activity has not been systematically investigated. In the present study, White Button and Honey Brown (both Agaricus bisporus), Shiitake (Lentinus edodes), Enoki (Flammulina velutipes) and Oyster mushroom (Pleurotus ostreatus) preparations were tested for their anti-inflammatory activity in lipopolysaccharide (LPS) and interferon-γ (IFN-γ) activated murine RAW 264.7 macrophages. Potent anti-inflammatory activity (IC₅₀<0.1 mg/ml), measured as inhibition of NO production, could be detected in all raw mushroom preparations, but only raw Oyster (IC₅₀=0.035 mg/ml), Shiitake (IC₅₀=0.047 mg/ml) and Enoki mushrooms (IC₅₀=0.099 mg/ml) showed also potent inhibition of TNF-α production. When the anti-inflammatory activity was followed through two food-processing steps, which involved ultrasonication and heating, a significant portion of the anti-inflammatory activity was lost suggesting that the anti-inflammatory compounds might be susceptible to heating or prone to evaporation.

Copyright © 2013 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

KEYWORDS: Inflammation; Mushrooms; Nitric oxide; Thermal processing; Tumor necrosis factor-α PMID: 24262531 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

The effects of whole mushrooms during inflammation

The data support a model whereby edible mushrooms regulate immunity in vitro. The in vivo effects of edible mushrooms required a challenge with DSS to detect small changes in TNF-α and transient protection from colonic injury. There are modest effects of in vivo consumption of edible mushrooms on induced inflammatory responses. The result is not surprising since it would certainly be harmful to strongly induce or suppress immune function following ingestion of a commonly consumed food.

 

Testosterone Decline and Cognitive Impairment—Is There a Link?
Testosterone and cognitive function: current clinical evidence of a relationship
Effects of Testosterone on Cognition and Mood in Male Patients With Mild Alzheimer Disease and Healthy Elderly Men
Effects of Transdermal Testosterone on Cognitive Function and Health Perception in Older Men With Low Bioavailable Testosterone Levels

Edited by gamesguru, 16 September 2015 - 07:48 PM.

[Keizo]

That is a low testosterone reading. Some doctors would even look into 12-14 nmol/L. 

 

I myself had 16 nmol/L and was kind of OK mentally, though I suspect it is higher now since I feel better and have noted some physical differences (and things that AFAIK are associated with test. levels). But I had some other problems making me feel kind of crap for a long period (like protracted benzo withdrawal). One major symptom I had was being fatigued and disinterested.

I suspect I was late in puberty, since I had some testicle growth at age 23 (coinciding with resveratrol supplementation and other things). Quite significant growth actually, if I did the measurements in a reasonable manner. I only measured 1 month after already noticing changes, but since then there is a 10ml increase per testicle. from 15-25ml to 25-35ml volume (various methods of measuring) per testicle.

Stuff I think had effect for me: Resveratrol around 500mg  (98% pure), Vitamin D (5-6000 IU), Lots of saturated fat (50g butter per day, and more), ~10mg boron, fulvic acid/shilajit, 30mg zinc, 500mg magnesium, 200mcg selenium, L. Reuteri. 

I also have had rather significant and surprising increases in muscle mass this year, but maybe I just started eating better. Probably I did. I also feel less emotional and socially anxious, but I have also used other things like cerebroylsin which I suspect helped a lot with e.g. anxiety.

 

But the thing is, you would basically want to double your values. Now I have heard some say, that free testosterone is the only reading of value. Also mention of prolactin, Estradiol, DHT....and things I can't recall.

 

I wouldn't want to mix a boat-load of different herbs, but that's just my feeling about it. 

 

Edited by Keizo, 17 September 2015 - 03:37 AM.

[lourdaud]

Must feel horrible having such low testosterone levels. How old are you?
Make sure to eat plenty of carbs and saturated fat. Lift heavy, sleep well, avoid stress. Try to be out in the sun as well. All these things should help but honestly I'd get on TRT or something if I were you..

[gamesguru]

Must feel horrible having such low testosterone levels. How old are you?
Make sure to eat plenty of carbs and saturated fat. Lift heavy, sleep well, avoid stress. Try to be out in the sun as well. All these things should help but honestly I'd get on TRT or something if I were you..

 

I'm assuming he's at least 40, otherwise he's very deficient.

Also monounsaturates:

Testosterone and cortisol in relationship to dietary nutrients and resistance exercise

Manipulation of resistance exercise variables (i.e., intensity, volume, and rest periods) affects the endocrine response to exercise; however, the influence of dietary nutrients on basal and exercise-induced concentrations of hormones is less understood. The present study examined the relationship between dietary nutrients and resting and exercise-induced blood concentrations of testosterone (T) and cortisol ©. Twelve men performed a bench press exercise protocol (5 sets to failure using a 10-repetitions maximum load) and a jump squat protocol (5 sets of 10 repetitions using 30% of each subject’s 1-repetition maximum squat) with 2 min of rest between all sets. A blood sample was obtained at preexercise and 5 min postexercise for determination of serum T and C. Subjects also completed detailed dietary food records for a total of 17 days. There was a significant (P ≤ 0.05) increase in postexercise T compared with preexercise values for both the bench press (7.4%) and jump squat (15.1%) protocols; however, C was not significantly different from preexercise concentrations.

Significant correlations were observed between preexercise T and percent energy protein (r = −0.71), percent energy fat (r = 0.72), saturated fatty acids (g ⋅ 1,000 kcal⁻¹ ⋅ day⁻¹;r = 0.77), monounsaturated fatty acids (g ⋅ 1,000 kcal⁻¹ ⋅ day⁻¹;r = 0.79), the polyunsaturated fat-to-saturated fat ratio (r = −0.63), and the protein-to-carbohydrate ratio (r = −0.59). There were no significant correlations observed between any nutritional variables and preexercise C or the absolute increase in T and C after exercise. These data confirm that high-intensity resistance exercise results in elevated postexercise T concentrations. A more impressive finding was that dietary nutrients may be capable of modulating resting concentrations of T.

[Barfly]

Tribulus terrestris (possibly) and DHEA.

 

I am bit reluctant to take DHEA due to this thread: http://www.longecity...dhea-nightmare/  but with some solid studies on DHEA actually improving low test in aging men it will remain as a possible future option.

[Barfly]

Barfly

 

It depends on what is causing the issues..if your testosterone is low because of high estrogen then you need to get that taken care of or the proportion will never be right and you will still feel like shit no matter how much you rise the androgen level. 

I would look into grape seed extract coupled with Rhodiola Rosea as well as Ashwagandha. 

GSE lowers aromatase expression semi-permanently and Rhodiola long-term reduces 5-HT3R expression and estrogen receptor {alpha} expression. 

The combination increases innate immunity to estrogen issues AS IT APPLIES. 

 

 

Cancer Res. 2006 Jun 1;66(11):5960-7.

Grape seed extract is an aromatase inhibitor and a suppressor of aromatase expression.

Kijima I1, Phung S, Hur G, Kwok SL, Chen S.

Author information

 

Abstract

Aromatase is the enzyme that converts androgen to estrogen. It is expressed at higher levels in breast cancer tissues than normal breast tissues. Grape seed extract (GSE) contains high levels of procyanidin dimers that have been shown in our laboratory to be potent inhibitors of aromatase. In this study, GSE was found to inhibit aromatase activity in a dose-dependent manner and reduce androgen-dependent tumor growth in an aromatase-transfected MCF-7 (MCF-7aro) breast cancer xenograft model, agreeing with our previous findings. We have also examined the effect of GSE on aromatase expression. Reverse transcription-PCR experiments showed that treatment with 60 mug/mL of GSE suppressed the levels of exon I.3-, exon PII-, and exon I.6-containing aromatase mRNAs in MCF-7 and SK-BR-3 cells. The levels of exon I.1-containing mRNA, however, did not change with GSE treatment. Transient transfection experiments with luciferase-aromatase promoter I.3/II or I.4 reporter vectors showed the suppression of the promoter activity in a dose-dependent manner. The GSE treatment also led to the down-regulation of two transcription factors, cyclic AMP-responsive element binding protein-1 (CREB-1) and glucocorticoid receptor (GR). CREB-1 and GR are known to up-regulate aromatase gene expression through promoters I.3/II and I.4, respectively. We believe that these results are exciting in that they show GSE to be potentially useful in the prevention/treatment of hormone-dependent breast cancer through the inhibition of aromatase activity as well as its expression.

PMID:   16740737   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]    Free full text

 

Mechanism of action of Rhodiola, salidroside, tyrosol and triandrin in isolated neuroglial cells: An interactive pathway analysis of the downstream effects using RNA microarray data

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers for the recommendation, GSE seems interesting and never though of it as an aromatase inhibitor, do you regard it as a better choice than DIM or, for example, PEs Erase?

 

Examine.com has low opinion of it regarding estrogen lowering, quote:

 

"In healthy women with a high risk of breast cancer (where reducing estrogen is at times beneficial), supplementation of GSE at varying doses between 200-800mg over 12 weeks failed to influence circulating estrogen levels.[78]"

Quote

 

The aromatase inhibiting property of GSE seen in vitro does not appear to apply to oral supplementation based on preliminary human studies"

 

 

 

However, its really cheap in bulk so I will take it for sure, btw what are recommended dosages here? Recommendations vary from 100 mg up to 2g!

 

Also, should piperine be taken with it due to low oral bioavailability?

 

Thank you for all your help!

Edited by Barfly, 18 September 2015 - 08:16 AM.

[Barfly]

You could be suffering from mitochondrial dysfunction due to inflammation. If you don't feel awake during the day time it possibly means that your circadian rhythm is imbalanced. Your circadian rhythm is controlled by your hypothalamus and your hypothalamus may not be working correctly due to inflammation.

I have the same problem as you, Without supplements I'd sleep most of the day. What helps me out are anti-inflammatory supplements like turmeric, NAC, and ubiquinol. I'd also recommend mitochondrial enhancers like C60 and mitoq.

 

 

Must feel horrible having such low testosterone levels. How old are you?
Make sure to eat plenty of carbs and saturated fat. Lift heavy, sleep well, avoid stress. Try to be out in the sun as well. All these things should help but honestly I'd get on TRT or something if I were you..

 

 

 

Must feel horrible having such low testosterone levels. How old are you?
Make sure to eat plenty of carbs and saturated fat. Lift heavy, sleep well, avoid stress. Try to be out in the sun as well. All these things should help but honestly I'd get on TRT or something if I were you..

 

I'm assuming he's at least 40, otherwise he's very deficient.

Also monounsaturates:

Testosterone and cortisol in relationship to dietary nutrients and resistance exercise

Manipulation of resistance exercise variables (i.e., intensity, volume, and rest periods) affects the endocrine response to exercise; however, the influence of dietary nutrients on basal and exercise-induced concentrations of hormones is less understood. The present study examined the relationship between dietary nutrients and resting and exercise-induced blood concentrations of testosterone (T) and cortisol ©. Twelve men performed a bench press exercise protocol (5 sets to failure using a 10-repetitions maximum load) and a jump squat protocol (5 sets of 10 repetitions using 30% of each subject’s 1-repetition maximum squat) with 2 min of rest between all sets. A blood sample was obtained at preexercise and 5 min postexercise for determination of serum T and C. Subjects also completed detailed dietary food records for a total of 17 days. There was a significant (P ≤ 0.05) increase in postexercise T compared with preexercise values for both the bench press (7.4%) and jump squat (15.1%) protocols; however, C was not significantly different from preexercise concentrations.

Significant correlations were observed between preexercise T and percent energy protein (r = −0.71), percent energy fat (r = 0.72), saturated fatty acids (g ⋅ 1,000 kcal⁻¹ ⋅ day⁻¹;r = 0.77), monounsaturated fatty acids (g ⋅ 1,000 kcal⁻¹ ⋅ day⁻¹;r = 0.79), the polyunsaturated fat-to-saturated fat ratio (r = −0.63), and the protein-to-carbohydrate ratio (r = −0.59). There were no significant correlations observed between any nutritional variables and preexercise C or the absolute increase in T and C after exercise. These data confirm that high-intensity resistance exercise results in elevated postexercise T concentrations. A more impressive finding was that dietary nutrients may be capable of modulating resting concentrations of T.

 

 

I have taken C60 for a month and don't recall anything obviously positive or negative, but thanks for the advice, maybe I will give MB a try to see if it helps my energy levels.

 

Regarding my age, I am 31, which probably makes my numbers look even worse and I do take a solid amount of fat needed for T since peanuts, peanut butter, flax seed and eggs are my staples which I eat almost every day.

 

So, here is my current battle plan:

 

1. I already take optizinc 30 mg daily, 400mg magnesium citrate, 7g creatine and 5000 IU D3 as my baseline support for T

 

2. I have ordered bulk GSE and ashwagandha from powdercity and when finances allow, I will also get forskolin and Tongat ali

 

3. Dust off weights and lift hard using a variation of Starting strength program at least 2x week

 

4. In 2 months time, take another test, this time total testosterone, free test and estrogen levels and if again results will be awful, take an appointment with endocrinologist 

 

Thank you all for your generous help and feedback!

[Turnbuckle]

 

Tribulus terrestris (possibly) and DHEA.

 

I am bit reluctant to take DHEA due to this thread: http://www.longecity...dhea-nightmare/  but with some solid studies on DHEA actually improving low test in aging men it will remain as a possible future option.

 

 

This was a young, high energy person who took DHEA without (apparently) any supplemental antioxidants. He felt great for a while, then crashed, probably as he began to experience mitochondrial damage. He compared his symptoms to those who have taken fluoroquinolones, which are known to cause mitochondrial damage. But if you are older, taking DHEA with sufficient mitochondrial antioxidants shouldn't be a problem.

 

See here--

 

A Word of Caution

 

Animal studies have shown that extremely high daily doses of DHEA (from 2000 to 10,000 mg. in human terms) caused liver damage in mice and rats. When antioxidants were given along with mega doses of DHEA, liver damage did not occur in animal tests. It should be noted that the amount of DHEA shown to cause liver damage is 20 times more than is necessary to produce anti-aging benefits.

 

 

 

This above referenced page recommends a few antioxidants, and to their list I'd add Setria brand L-Glutathione.

[Area-1255]

Cheers for the recommendation, GSE seems interesting and never though of it as an aromatase inhibitor, do you regard it as a better choice than DIM or, for example, PEs Erase?

 

Examine.com has low opinion of it regarding estrogen lowering, quote:

 

"In healthy women with a high risk of breast cancer (where reducing estrogen is at times beneficial), supplementation of GSE at varying doses between 200-800mg over 12 weeks failed to influence circulating estrogen levels.[78]"

Quote

 

The aromatase inhibiting property of GSE seen in vitro does not appear to apply to oral supplementation based on preliminary human studies"

 

 

 

However, its really cheap in bulk so I will take it for sure, btw what are recommended dosages here? Recommendations vary from 100 mg up to 2g!

 

Also, should piperine be taken with it due to low oral bioavailability?

 

Thank you for all your help!

 

If you take GSE with piperine it should have an effect; I've always stacked it with Rhodiola and sometimes with Triazole as well for the lucky third. 

I think the problem with replicating their findings is not just practicality by means or oral bioavailability but rather the fact that we are looking at it as an EXPRESSION INHIBITOR and not as a pharmaceutical agent wherein direct inhibition is noted..so 3-6 months of GSE use would be more or less ideal for these nutra-epi-genetic type changes.

Edited by Area-1255, 18 September 2015 - 02:45 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

 

 

Tribulus terrestris (possibly) and DHEA.

 

I am bit reluctant to take DHEA due to this thread: http://www.longecity...dhea-nightmare/  but with some solid studies on DHEA actually improving low test in aging men it will remain as a possible future option.

 

 

This was a young, high energy person who took DHEA without (apparently) any supplemental antioxidants. He felt great for a while, then crashed, probably as he began to experience mitochondrial damage. He compared his symptoms to those who have taken fluoroquinolones, which are known to cause mitochondrial damage. But if you are older, taking DHEA with sufficient mitochondrial antioxidants shouldn't be a problem.

 

See here--

 

A Word of Caution

 

Animal studies have shown that extremely high daily doses of DHEA (from 2000 to 10,000 mg. in human terms) caused liver damage in mice and rats. When antioxidants were given along with mega doses of DHEA, liver damage did not occur in animal tests. It should be noted that the amount of DHEA shown to cause liver damage is 20 times more than is necessary to produce anti-aging benefits.

 

 

 

This above referenced page recommends a few antioxidants, and to their list I'd add Setria brand L-Glutathione.

 

 

I would think that DHEA + GSE would be interesting.  Isn't one of the problems with taking DHEA alone is that it can end up making estrogen rather than testosterone?

 

 

[Area-1255]

 

 

 

Tribulus terrestris (possibly) and DHEA.

 

I am bit reluctant to take DHEA due to this thread: http://www.longecity...dhea-nightmare/  but with some solid studies on DHEA actually improving low test in aging men it will remain as a possible future option.

 

 

This was a young, high energy person who took DHEA without (apparently) any supplemental antioxidants. He felt great for a while, then crashed, probably as he began to experience mitochondrial damage. He compared his symptoms to those who have taken fluoroquinolones, which are known to cause mitochondrial damage. But if you are older, taking DHEA with sufficient mitochondrial antioxidants shouldn't be a problem.

 

See here--

 

A Word of Caution

 

Animal studies have shown that extremely high daily doses of DHEA (from 2000 to 10,000 mg. in human terms) caused liver damage in mice and rats. When antioxidants were given along with mega doses of DHEA, liver damage did not occur in animal tests. It should be noted that the amount of DHEA shown to cause liver damage is 20 times more than is necessary to produce anti-aging benefits.

 

 

 

This above referenced page recommends a few antioxidants, and to their list I'd add Setria brand L-Glutathione.

 

 

I would think that DHEA + GSE would be interesting.  Isn't one of the problems with taking DHEA alone is that it can end up making estrogen rather than testosterone?

 

They are both anti-cortisol agents so yes, it would be interesting. 

[Daniel Cooper]

 

 

 

I would think that DHEA + GSE would be interesting.  Isn't one of the problems with taking DHEA alone is that it can end up making estrogen rather than testosterone?

 

 

They are both anti-cortisol agents so yes, it would be interesting. 

 

 

I was really thinking more of GSE as a aromatase inhibitor as mentioned in the earlier citation.  Something that might keep your DHEA from ending up as estrogen.
 

[Area-1255]

 

 

 

 

I would think that DHEA + GSE would be interesting.  Isn't one of the problems with taking DHEA alone is that it can end up making estrogen rather than testosterone?

 

 

They are both anti-cortisol agents so yes, it would be interesting. 

 

 

I was really thinking more of GSE as a aromatase inhibitor as mentioned in the earlier citation.  Something that might keep your DHEA from ending up as estrogen.
 

 

Right but I am saying they would synergistic in modulating glucocorticoids as well. Making their benefits *together* nearly four-fold.

[Daniel Cooper]

The effect of Ginger on serum testosterone of infertile men

serum testosterone up 17.7% ... sperm count up 16.2% ... sperm motility up 47.3% ... sperm viability up 40.7% ... ejaculate volume up 36.1%

 

Also, consider cutting green tea extract out if taking

Green tea polyphenols inhibit testosterone production in rat Leydig cells

 

The inhibitory effects of GTE may be explained by the action of its principal component, EGCG, and the presence of a gallate group in its structure seems important for its high efficacy in inhibiting testosterone production.  The mechanisms underlying the effects of GTE and EGCG involve the inhibition of the PKA/PKC signalling pathways, as well as the inhibition of P450 side-chain cleavage enzyme and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase function

 

Serum test exhibits a stochastic rhythm in response to ejaculation, about once every 8 days is ideal (according to this one study).

 

 

The article on ginger looks interesting.  I've heard anecdotal stories of ginger raising testosterone as well.  Any idea what dose would be effective?  Do you need to use whole root, ginger extract in capsule form, or will the ginger powder you buy at the grocery store work?

 

 

 

[gamesguru]

The article on ginger looks interesting.  I've heard anecdotal stories of ginger raising testosterone as well.  Any idea what dose would be effective?  Do you need to use whole root, ginger extract in capsule form, or will the ginger powder you buy at the grocery store work?

Good point, the stupid study doesn't even say what dose was used (or at least it's hidden in fine print).

In the discussion they mention similar effects were obtained at 50 and 100mg/kg pureed root in rats, so divide by 7, or about 500-1000mg for a 65kg male.  Now I'm assuming that must be dried!  So multiply by ten, and you need about 5-10g root daily.

 

I just buy it at Kroger, big roots, organic, cheap, and make gingerale w/ brown sugar & Gerolsteiner. mhmmm.  The root is already ~1% gingerols by wet weight, so buying extract is kind of silly.

I tried putting it into my smoothies, which are mostly fruit +almonds/flax/hemp/whey, but it unfavorably offsets the taste.

 

 

I think it may have to do with vasodilatory and antioxidative properties more than anything.  Let's hope the study is not methodologically flawed, based on data falsified by a lazy intern, or funded in part by The Ginger People.

 

FSH and LH concentrations in infertile men treated ginger were increased significantly by Zingiber Officinale treatment. There was an agreement with previous the finding done by Arsh et al., (2009), who found an increase in both FSH & LH in rat but non  significant (11). Z. officinale aqueous exracts have a potent androgenic activity in male rats. This activity was reflected by the increasing of both testis weight and serum testosterone concentrations

[Daniel Cooper]

 

The article on ginger looks interesting.  I've heard anecdotal stories of ginger raising testosterone as well.  Any idea what dose would be effective?  Do you need to use whole root, ginger extract in capsule form, or will the ginger powder you buy at the grocery store work?

Good point, the stupid study doesn't even say what dose was used (or at least it's hidden in fine print).

In the discussion they mention similar effects were obtained at 50 and 100mg/kg pureed root in rats, so divide by 7, or about 500-1000mg for a 65kg male.  Now I'm assuming that must be dried!  So multiply by ten, and you need about 5-10g root daily.

 

I just buy it at Kroger, big roots, organic, cheap, and make gingerale w/ brown sugar & Gerolsteiner. mhmmm.  The root is already ~1% gingerols by wet weight, so buying extract is kind of silly.

I tried putting it into my smoothies, which are mostly fruit +almonds/flax/hemp/whey, but it unfavorably offsets the taste.

 

 

I think it may have to do with vasodilatory and antioxidative properties more than anything.  Let's hope the study is not methodologically flawed, based on data falsified by a lazy intern, or funded in part by The Ginger People.

 

FSH and LH concentrations in infertile men treated ginger were increased significantly by Zingiber Officinale treatment. There was an agreement with previous the finding done by Arsh et al., (2009), who found an increase in both FSH & LH in rat but non  significant (11). Z. officinale aqueous exracts have a potent androgenic activity in male rats. This activity was reflected by the increasing of both testis weight and serum testosterone concentrations

 

 

Yeah, I read that Iraqi study several times and it never mentions the dosage they use, which doesn't exactly fill you with confidence about their methodology.  However, there were plenty of rodent studies that looked decent.

 

Based on the rodent studies, it looks to me like a dosage of 1 ~ 3g of dried root powder per day would be appropriate.  I think that the powered stuff you buy in the grocery store would be just fine and of course there are capsules you can purchase in pretty much any store that sells supplements.  And the raw root would be just fine as long as you account for the water content as you suggest above.

 

So how long have you been taking ginger and do you believe it is helping raise your testosterone?  Have you done any before/after labs? 

 

I'm thinking I may give this a try.  Really would like to get some labs done before starting but I hate having to go through my doctor/gatekeeper.

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 19 September 2015 - 12:37 PM.

[gamesguru]

how long have you been taking ginger and do you believe it is helping raise your testosterone?  Have you done any before/after labs?

 

Unfortunately the longest continuous stretch I took it was like 15-20 days, not nearly enough to gauge effects.  I kind of take it whenever I please, about 3-4 days weekly, some weeks not at all, some weeks every day.  I also use it for heart health, and will sometimes take it with the idea of bailing myself out of a fatty cheat meal, which is a horrible idea.

 

No lab tests, no $$$$.  I would guess I'm a little low T even, due to the fact that it took me over a year to gain 15 lean pounds [I also am known to eat a high fiber low fat diet, which is bad for T levels, to vaporize obscene quantities of cannabis, to drink green tea like water^{see post #4}, to take other random supplements, and to masturbate multiple times daily... none of which are particularly good for T levels]. 

 

Besides, there are so many other constantly changing variables in my life, that I could never be the subject of a controlled experiment.

[Keizo]

Rhoonda Patrick (on one of her appearances on the joe rogan experience) said Ginger only works to raise testosterone short-term.... 

I would recommend ginger once in a while just because it makes me feel good in general, but I am not really sure how much mental effects it has had. Seems to help with nausea and certain stomach discomfort. I pretty much use it ever other week now.

I just use regular dried ginger, I put ½-1 teaspoon in a mug and add hot water, 1-3 times per day. So it would be about 1-8 grams a day.

 

Edited by Keizo, 19 September 2015 - 02:50 PM.

[Area-1255]

Rhoonda Patrick (on one of her appearances on the joe rogan experience) said Ginger only works to raise testosterone short-term.... 

I would recommend ginger once in a while just because it makes me feel good in general, but I am not really sure how much mental effects it has had. Seems to help with nausea and certain stomach discomfort. I pretty much use it ever other week now.

I just use regular dried ginger, I put ½-1 teaspoon in a mug and add hot water, 1-3 times per day. So it would be about 1-8 grams a day.

I used Ginger during PCT once; didn't really notice much other than increased mood (very mildly) and very mild increase in libido...

The other times I've used it were to counter-act nausea from other sups/drugs...and for that it is VERY effective but VERY dose-dependent. Higher doses of ginger or the extracts vary per person, too, though. 

[Keizo]

I just ingested my first gram of Grape Seed Extract to go with my Resveratrol.   I found this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3967610/

Look at table 3. Unless I am missing something there is about a +30% testosterone increase compared to control,  at a human dose roughly equivalent of about 1.5 grams depending on your weight. (They used 100mg/kg for the rats) 

[Irishdude]

Hey, I have an average of 11 ng/dl and I am 27. I have depression, anxiety and cognitive impairment for 3 years and periods of untreated depression before that for at least 5 months per episode. I am finally seeking help and getting a big set of tests this wednesday coming thats costing me 1000e. I hope I can find the root cause of this as it has ruined my career and caused me to do risky things as well in the mean time. I have shrunken testicles. I never noticed lol. I presumed I had classic anxiety/depression and maybe thats part of it but my low test is certainly making me feel weak. I had to quit an engineering job 3 years ago cause the stress destroyed my mind. It was awful. I never recovered. I couldnt read a sentence without remembering the start and had awful memory problems. I suggest going to get proper help and not use herbs.

[kurdishfella]

Testosterone doesn't give energy it uses up more energy, Nothing but FOOD gives energy nutrition. It makes you hungrier so you eat more food. Sort of like how pregnant or women on their period get hungrier so they feel happier cause they eat more. So you have constant mental energy and body depending on work

Edited by kurdishfella, 09 December 2022 - 08:24 AM.