22 replies to this topic

[hotbit]

Curcumin bioavalability is very low. I found some studies comparing bioavalability of curcumin with additives like piperine, in nanoforms etc. I cannot find any sources on curcumin bioavailability  in form of ethanol solution. I wonder if anybody has seen any information regarding this?

 

Solubility of curcumin in alcohol (ethanol) is 10mg/ml. If solubility in water diluted alcohol is changing linearly, it would mean in 100ml of vodka 400mg of curcumin could dissolve.

 

 

Links:
http://www.sciencedi...928098714004114

http://cancer.cytolu...in problems.pdf

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18971866

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22422620

 

Could curcumin in alcohol solution combined with dihydromyricetine be an effective way to achieve high curcumin concentrations in plasma? 

[niner]

There are a couple problems with this.  The first is that the solubility is unlikely to be linear with alcohol concentration.  Hydrophobic effects are largely entropic, and entropic effects tend to be hard to predict.  I've played around with dissolving insoluble compounds in ethanol, then diluting them in water, and they crash out of solution abruptly.  So thing one is that when dilute enough to drink, you either wouldn't get much drug or you'd get too much to drink, which is kind of thing two, unless you wanted to get drunk anyway.  Thing three is that upon mixing with stomach contents, further dilution would occur, driving more of the drug out of solution.  I think you'd be better off with one of the sophisticated formulations like Longvida or others.

[aconita]

Since fresh turmeric juice mixed with milk is what has been used for thousands of years in South East Asia for health purposes I suspect that turmeric powder along with some fat (olive or coconut oil or butter, for example) would provide a quite bioavailable amount of curcumin and possibly some added benefit too (usually there are synergies playing an important role beyond what is thought to be the main active compound), saving money being one of them.

[hotbit]

Since fresh turmeric juice mixed with milk is what has been used for thousands of years in South East Asia for health purposes I suspect that turmeric powder along with some fat (olive or coconut oil or butter, for example) would provide a quite bioavailable amount of curcumin and possibly some added benefit too (usually there are synergies playing an important role beyond what is thought to be the main active compound), saving money being one of them.

 

I guess the purpose of the meeting on this forum is to go one step further than ancient people and not stop where our ancestors did...

There is little curcumin in turmeric and curcumin is poorly soluble in fats, so this path is not looking bright. An observation about possible synergies is good, but what are those synergies and how it works? 

 

There are a couple problems with this.  The first is that the solubility is unlikely to be linear with alcohol concentration.  Hydrophobic effects are largely entropic, and entropic effects tend to be hard to predict.  I've played around with dissolving insoluble compounds in ethanol, then diluting them in water, and they crash out of solution abruptly.  So thing one is that when dilute enough to drink, you either wouldn't get much drug or you'd get too much to drink, which is kind of thing two, unless you wanted to get drunk anyway.  Thing three is that upon mixing with stomach contents, further dilution would occur, driving more of the drug out of solution.  I think you'd be better off with one of the sophisticated formulations like Longvida or others.

My assumption about solubility in ethanol-water medium is very rough, this is one of the questions I am looking an answer for....  Points very valuable for this discussion, thank you.

If Longvida developers would  thought the same way, they would not develop longvida formulation but would stay with pure curcumin, and who extracted curcumin - with turmeric   Thus lets try to make another step 

[aconita]

curcumin is poorly soluble in fats

 

"Curcumin is fat soluble"

 

"A phospholipid complex has been noted to increase absorption 3.4-fold relative to curcumin alone in rats,a micellar surfactant (polysorbate) alone by 9-fold, phytosomes by 19.2-fold, and a combination of surfactants with oil or PLGA-PEG increasing absorption to 20-fold or greater relative to reference solutions of curcumin.

 

Alternatively, the absorption can be increased by pairing curcumin ingestion with other lipophilic agents such as the volatile oils naturally occurring in the Turmeric plant (6.9-fold) or traditional preparation with gum ghatti (27.6-fold after processing) or by enhancing the initially poor water solubility of curcumin by pairing with water soluble carriers (polyvinyl pyrrolidone) and antioxidantswhere absorption can be further increased by adding in yet another lipophilic carrier.

 

Curcumin is inherently a very lipophilic (fat soluble) supplement, and ingesting curcumin by itself will result in very poor absorption. This absorption can be increased by numerous ways, either by introducing fat soluble components (may stimulate the intestines to produce micelles which carry fat soluble components via lymph) or formulating micelles within a dietary supplement."

 

"Limited in vitro evidence suggests that curcumin may cause DNA damage and suppress the immune system at high concentrations. How these findings translate to actual impact on human health is unknown at this time"

 

https://examine.com/...ments/Curcumin/

 

Maybe those "ancient people" were smarter than you think

 

Anybody has its own idea about what this forum is or should be, me myself I tend to keep in good consideration some thousands of years on the field experience... at least until is proven wrong.

 

...but what are those synergies and how it works?

 

Since we don't really know it would be smarter to not rule it out just because of that.

 

...to go one step further than ancient people

 

To go one step further we first need to master the step before, do we?

 

I don't (and admittedly you don't too), not yet.

 

If Longvida developers would  thought the same way, they would not develop longvida formulation but would stay with pure curcumin, and who extracted curcumin - with turmeric

 

 

Sure...but unfortunately to sell turmeric powder as a supplement is hardly going to pay the Porsche lease....

 

Porsche...great cars by the way....

 

 

 

 

 

[hotbit]

"Curcumin is fat soluble"

 

"A phospholipid complex has been noted to increase absorption 3.4-fold relative to curcumin alone in rats,a micellar surfactant (polysorbate) alone by 9-fold, phytosomes by 19.2-fold, and a combination of surfactants with oil or PLGA-PEG increasing absorption to 20-fold or greater relative to reference solutions of curcumin.

 

20 fold greater absorption is still low. Also, they write about modifications / additives (complexes, surfactants) and I expect by simply dissolving curcumin in fats we don't get them.

 

Be it olive, coconut oil or butter - I am struggling to find any proper data. It is often claimed curcumine is well soluble in fats,  but how well? 1mg/ml or 100mg/ml? In room temperature - is it a stable solution or do microcrystals of curcumin precipitate? What absorption / bioavailability levels are?

 

Almost the same goes for alcohol solution. At least we know solubility is at ~ 10mg/ml or 1% in 99.5% ethanol. What I don't know is solubility in ethanol-water medium at 40% /20% / 10% of ethanol nor what is absorption / bioavailability levels. 

Edited by hotbit, 20 February 2016 - 11:16 AM.

[aconita]

As you may notice to achieve high curcumin concentrations in plasma may be not such a good idea.

 

If something is good it doesn't necessarily means more is better, actually seldom it is the case.

 

I do understand your curiosity from an academic point of view but as a practical approach I am convinced we are much better off relying on traditional ways which have been proved safe and effective for a long time.

 

Rule number one: don't fix what is not broken.

 

Rule number two: don't try to improve what you don't already master.

 

Rule number three: if you break rules one and two don't rule out negative outcomes, therefore be very prudent.   

[hotbit]

 

If something is good it doesn't necessarily means more is better, actually seldom it is the case.

 

I do understand your curiosity from an academic point of view but as a practical approach I am convinced we are much better off relying on traditional ways which have been proved safe and effective for a long time.

 

I cannot agree with this. As you see in this paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3918523/

scientists look at  bioavailability as being a very important factor. 

 

Besides, we are quite strongly sliding around the OP. In this thread I am interested to find information on curcumin bioavailability in the form of a solution in ethanol-water medium. Whether it is a good form of administration or not is also worth a discussion, but we need data, studies, cases. Just saying that 'traditional way (ie turmeric powder) is better' etc without any proof is leading us nowhere.

[aconita]

I am not aware of hydro-alcoholic as a bio availability enhancer, therefore I suppose it makes no difference in that regard.

 

Possibly liposomal encapsulation would be a far better choice.

 

 

[LongLife]

How curcumin should be delivered in vivo, how bioavailable is it, how well curcumin is absorbed and how it is metabolized, is the focus of this review. Various formulations of curcumin that are currently available are also discussed.

 

See these PubMed reviews from 2014

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3918523/

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4066676/

 

PubMed search does not show any published work in vivo on the subject liposoml curmumin but suggests that studies be done. It is very probable there are studies being done now and need to wait for their forthcoming publications. Everything takes time. In the meantime, there are recipes on the Internet for liposomal curcumin and it appears to be a novel and logical means of delivery particularly if combined with a potentiator like piperidine.   

Edited by LongLife, 27 February 2016 - 12:19 AM.

[niner]

Here's a review with a lot of human pharmacokinetic data for various curcumin formulations.  When evaluating PK data, pay attention to the species that they are quantitating.  In some cases it's free curcumin, and in some cases it's "total curcumin", which includes the various metabolites.  The problem with the metabolites is that we don't know if they have the activity of the free substance.  It's usually a good bet that they don't.

[dazed1]

"It is very likely that poor absorption is a consequence of the fact that curcumin is practically insoluble in water. Therefore, solubility is an important issue in in vitro and in vivo experiments. Here, we would like to point out that we have shown increased solubility of curcumin (12-fold) and turmeric (3-fold) by the use of heat.2"

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2747637/

 

 

 

 "Curcumin levels in the microgram range have been shown to be necessary to show antiproliferative effects in in vitro studies (3).

The solution to this problem would be to increase the solubility of curcumin before oral administration to patients. We have shown that we could increase the solubility of curcumin 12-fold by heating a solution of curcumin in water to boiling for 10 minutes (4). Matrix-assisted laser desorption ionization mass spectrometric and spectrophotometric profiling (400–700 nm) of the heat-extracted curcumin displays no heat-mediated disintegration of curcumin. With the use of an ELISA that used 4-hydroxy-2-nonenal modification of solid-phase antigen, the heat-solubilized curcumin was found to inhibit 4-hydroxy-2-nonenal-protein modification by 80% (5). We showed that mild alkali-solubilized curcumin also inhibited 4-hydroxy-2-nonenal protein modification significantly (6). Thus, inhibition of 4-hydroxy-2-nonenal modification of proteins may be a mechanism by which curcumin exerts its effect in many disorders (4, 5)"

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2693878/

[YOLF]

There are a couple problems with this.  The first is that the solubility is unlikely to be linear with alcohol concentration.  Hydrophobic effects are largely entropic, and entropic effects tend to be hard to predict.  I've played around with dissolving insoluble compounds in ethanol, then diluting them in water, and they crash out of solution abruptly.  So thing one is that when dilute enough to drink, you either wouldn't get much drug or you'd get too much to drink, which is kind of thing two, unless you wanted to get drunk anyway.  Thing three is that upon mixing with stomach contents, further dilution would occur, driving more of the drug out of solution.  I think you'd be better off with one of the sophisticated formulations like Longvida or others.

 

I don't know, it would provide a nice color to wine coolers made with white wine or it could make red wine orange and might be of benefit to replace or reduce sulfites as a color preservative. Orange flavored curcumin vodka coolers anyone?

[YOLF]

Choline conjugates absorb well, personally, I'd like to see an Alpha-GPC curcumin conjugate become available for both the cognitive and anitaging benefits all in one.

[Mr.No]

Maybe solution in glycerine (with some water) is not bad idea  https://en.wikipedia...ical_extracts  And maybe curcumin is not only active compound so you don't need to worry much about bioavailability.

   

Edited by Mr.No, 22 April 2016 - 08:44 PM.

[QQQ]

I'm thinking of switching over from my Now Food Curcumin to a more bio available option.  Is the most widely recommended form currently Longvida?  I noticed that Now Foods now has a longvida curcumin option.  

 

I'm currently taking 665 mg of regular curcumin.  Does it make sense to take the same dosage of a more bioavailable form like longvida?

[dazed1]

Stop wasting money on supplements and get the spices - turmeric, do it like this...but add some cinnamon (ceylon) and ginger as well. It should be Turmeric - 50% ginger 25% black pepper 5% and cinnamon 20%
 

 

 

 

After its done, let it cool of and ad some more from the all ingredients but now raw, not cooked, (they got different properties when not cooked) stir it to make it even put a tiny bit salt to keep it from getting bad, and you can use this 1 week. This mixture is around 50 folds more bioavailable then to consume to turmeric it self, and it has 2/3 folds more potency as well, the antioxidant activity of turmeric goes up few folds, and the ginger gets insanely potent anti-raidoctavity properties.

 

I dont know if im allowed to paste links of the best spices, (brands/products) if i'm i will do it later on just tell me. From my experience this mixture is the most potent thing i ever tried, much much EFFECTIVE then curcumin supplements (tried many of them)

Edited by dazed1, 23 April 2016 - 09:13 AM.

[YOLF]

Stop wasting money on supplements and get the spices - turmeric, do it like this...but add some cinnamon (ceylon) and ginger as well. It should be Turmeric - 50% ginger 25% black pepper 5% and cinnamon 20%
 

 

 

 

After its done, let it cool of and ad some more from the all ingredients but now raw, not cooked, (they got different properties when not cooked) stir it to make it even put a tiny bit salt to keep it from getting bad, and you can use this 1 week. This mixture is around 50 folds more bioavailable then to consume to turmeric it self, and it has 2/3 folds more potency as well, the antioxidant activity of turmeric goes up few folds, and the ginger gets insanely potent anti-raidoctavity properties.

 

I dont know if im allowed to paste links of the best spices, (brands/products) if i'm i will do it later on just tell me. From my experience this mixture is the most potent thing i ever tried, much much EFFECTIVE then curcumin supplements (tried many of them)

 

So, I can get 3-6 months worth of daily curcumin supplementation for $60 if I buy MetaCurcumin. How much is all of this going to cost me, and how many minutes am I going to spend shopping and cooking every week? Isn't it the opposite of life extension if I'm wasting time? How much money am I really going to save? I agree with you that turmeric has a nice spectrum of benefits that Curcumin alone doesn't have, but I'd rather take both. I make a supplement shake with raw powdered ingredients, extracts, and single ingredients, that I make once a month, maybe every 2-3 months and it takes me about 2-3 hours to make. My shake, when taken twice daily contains over 100 doses and probably about 60 ingredients. This sounds like it would use up just as much time, if not more, and only give me the benefits of only 4 ingredients. Not to mention, I only have a bunch of spoons to rinse off when I'm done... No pans to clean... just stick the finished product in jars or bags into a little fridge. 

[dazed1]

The highest grade 450 grams turmeric cost 12$, since the paste is mixture and its not only turmeric and you don't need more then ~ 6 grams per day will last you very long.

 

The time to get this solution ready is 10-20 minutes max, you only cook it for around 15 mins. Its not so much about money saving, its about the insanely potent benefits which cannot be match from my experience,

 

I tried

 

C3 complex

Meriva

Longvida

BCM 95

 

Nothing come close to the paste in terms of effects, and well being feel - but i understand that you might prefer easy of use.

 

About time wasting, you do not shop every week, you shop once and that's it.

Edited by dazed1, 24 April 2016 - 08:54 AM.

[YOLF]

Are you diabetic or prediabetic? The cinnamon is blood thinning and lowers blood sugar. The ginger will raise testosterone, improve gut health and a bunch of other things. Plus it's about 3g of fiber. The spectrum of benefits is pretty impressive, but 25-35 minutes a week of preparation for 4 ingredients is a bit much. You're not going to get the same benefits from all these curcumins as you're going to get from a 4 ingredient recipe. Cinnamon caps and bioperine tabs are pretty cheap, raw ginger and turmeric caps are purchasable, plus you can do a powder mix and still save the money.

 

 

[dazed1]

The tablets are not heat treated, and are also inferior forms/extract compared to the whole foods which are offering full spectrum of benefits, not isolated substances.

 

Also, cinnamon is impressively potent anti-oxidant, it benefits go far beyond the blood sugar regulation - anti many many things same as ginger/turmeric, i'm waiting my next order to arrive, i will add cloves and rosemary to this mixture as well, to make it even more potent.

 

 

[normalizing]

i read tons of studies showing again and again curcumin is not bioavailable in water, but compared to all pills and mixtures of alcohol and fats ive taken, the only noticeable effect i ever had was turmeric tea. go figure

Edited by normalizing, 26 April 2016 - 04:04 AM.

[dazed1]

i read tons of studies showing again and again curcumin is not bioavailable in water, but compared to all pills and mixtures of alcohol and fats ive taken, the only noticeable effect i ever had was turmeric tea. go figure

 

Exactly, i think plasma levels are not so important for turmeric., especially when you mix it with oil/black pepper and heat it, its more then bioavailable, i tried many products but only the real whole food turmeric powder made me feel so much better.