17 replies to this topic

[A941]

Do we die when we go to sleep?

Do we loose consciousness and experience death, or is our consciousness bound to our hardware, our brain, and we wouldnt even die if we would be kept in biostasis for a very long time, while our brain would not be operating?

[Antonio2014]

My record is 3 nights without sleep, when I was writing my PhD thesis. A week before the presentation, I found a fatal error and had to correct it or fail in the presentation and pay again the big fees for the PhD. I finally could correct the mistake.

[A941]

You missed the topic.

[A941]

Is no one interessted in this topic?

[Russ Maughan]

No we do not die. Our attention is directed elsewhere, into dreamstate. If you did die you would probably experience out of body experiences.

[Danail Bulgaria]

To die means the heart to stop, the brain to stop working at all.

+

Neither of these both happens

=

We don't die while speeping

 

[A941]

Foubnd this comic:http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1

[pamojja]

Foubnd this comic:http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1

 

As the Dalai Lama allegedly answered when asked, 'What is reborn, if not the self?': 'Bad Habits'
 

[Danail Bulgaria]

Foubnd this comic:http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1

 

So, you red, that the guy slept in the bus, and woke up death, and you started asking if we die while sleeping  lol

 

The point was completely different. The author's idea was, that since the atoms, that compose you are constantly changing, tomorrow you will not be the same person, who lives today, since you will be build from slightly different atoms. The guy understood that as his today's self will die, and will be replaced with his tomorrow's self, e.g. a constant, daily death and rebirth. 

 

I am simmilar with that guy from the comix, by the way. I am explaining, that such an ideas, like destroying yourself and rebuilding you back from another material is a suicide, and I am explaining it in every conversation, that I hear such an idea. I do it now, before such a machine to be constructed. If I live long enough to whitness the existence of such a machine, then I will continue to claim, like the "protagonist" from the comix, that this is a murder and at least in the beinning I will watch in horror how the first, uninformed clones emerge constantly from the machine. 

 

Here my simmilarities with the guy from the comix end, and my life will be completely different from the life of the character in the comix.

 

First of all, when I say my oppinion understandably enough, moreover when I hear that argument on the tv, this will be enough for me not to care anymore for the teleportators. I have done what depends on me for saving the life of the idiots. Now it is the idiots turn. They must not use the machine to suicide themselves. If they know, that this is a murder, and even though they do it, then it is their informed decision. And each idiot deserves his faith.

 

Second I don't accept the argument, that our life is the "cosciousness, produced from the pattern of atoms".

 

Being alive per se means, that your identity changes - cells constantly metabolize molecules and replace structures. Each day skin cells peel off and are being replaced with another skin cells, the hair and the nails grow.

 

There is a more important question - what is it to be alive, and what is it to keep being alive.

 

This is more important than the absolute identity.

 

 

The biological view of what is alive is:
- to be made of cells.
- to obtain and use energy.
- to grow and develop.
- to be able to reproduce.
- to respond to the environment.
- to adapt to the environment.

The fact itself of obtaining and using energy include changes in the cells. So, the absolute identity as you view it, can't be preserved.

 

The fact of being alive is you to loose and gain parts of your absolute identity.

 

So, if you want to be immortal - lets name it to keep existing as alive, you have to swallow the fact, that you will keep changing.

 

The absolute identity today (2015 - 2016) can be preserved only if your body is being taken in the absolute zero temperature, and absolutely no change is being made in your entire body, and you to stay like that, like stone. But ...this is not a life. You are virtually death while frozen to the absolute zero.

If you ask me, we are a single large changing mass of cells, with the same DNA, which are:
- made of cells.
- obtain and use energy.
- cappable to grow and develop.
- cappable of reproduction.
- responding to the environment.
- adapting to the environment.

 

Existing means maintaining this large mass of DNA equal cells and its properties.

Existing forever means maintaining this large mass of DNA equal cells and its properties forever.

 

So choose what do you want - to be unchanged, or to be alive.

 

Here comes one adittional advise for you - if you want to be alive forever, then focus on the stem cells.

Edited by seivtcho, 09 March 2016 - 08:13 AM.

[A941]

The question was a bit more complex and it is about the experience of death, if I may say so since death cant be experienced, and i didnt get the idea from the comic, it is not that uncommon, there are a couple discussions going on. I dont believe it but the wider context makes it interesting.

 

The interessting part of the question is, what are we and when do we die:

Are we a function of the matter that composes us, or are we a pattern in this matter?

If we are a function of the matter that composes us we are lost with that matter, if we are a pattern, we can be maintained while our parts are replaced, but if we are destroyed and rebuild elsewhere we have died an there is only a copy of us left. It would be interesting to know how much important continuity is in this context. Lets say someone is cryopreserved and brought back to life, did that person die or was he/she just in a state of stasis?

 

 

[A941]

btw.:Do we ever completely loose consciousness during sleep, even the deep sleep phases?

 

[pamojja]

 The interessting part of the question is, what are we and when do we die:

 

In Buddhist psychology and it's meditative exploration everything experienced arises and passes in co-dependence momentarily. If sense organ, sense object and sense consciousness all meet (as in sight, sound, smell, taste, touch and thought as 6th sense) one moment of that particular sense consciousness has arisen, then passed. And so on, uncountable times during a split second.

 

Logically that probably doesn't make much sense, put experientially (as in prolonged monastic meditation) it gives insight in the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and selflessness of every compounded phenomena. With persistence in this observation and the resulting detachment from what can't possibly be one's self (body, feeling and consciousness) letting go might occur. Then the question 'when do we die' ceases with the question 'what are we'.

 

Actually, in Buddhist understanding, it is this very question with it's accompanying erroneous fabrications which bounds us to incessant re-becomings.

 

 

 

[Danail Bulgaria]

You can answer yourself most of that, based on my previous answer (post number 9) 

 

"What are we" 

A mass of cells, that: 

- are made of cells  
- obtain and use energy.
- able to grow and develop.
- able to reproduce.
- able to respond to the environment.
- able to adapt to the environment.

 

"When do we die" 

When we stop being 

A mass of cells, that: 

- are made of cells  
- obtain and use energy.
- able to grow and develop.
- able to reproduce.
- able to respond to the environment.
- able to adapt to the environment.

 

"Are we a function of the matter that composes us, or are we a pattern in this matter?"

We are both and neither, because being alive means both of them to change. 

If you want to be a non-changing mass, freeze yourself at the absolute zero and stay like that forever. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Do we ever completely loose consciousness during sleep, even the deep sleep phases" 

Since it is possible to remember the dreams, we don't loose consciousness completely. 

[A941]

 

 The interessting part of the question is, what are we and when do we die:

 

In Buddhist psychology and it's meditative exploration everything experienced arises and passes in co-dependence momentarily. If sense organ, sense object and sense consciousness all meet (as in sight, sound, smell, taste, touch and thought as 6th sense) one moment of that particular sense consciousness has arisen, then passed. And so on, uncountable times during a split second.

 

Logically that probably doesn't make much sense, put experientially (as in prolonged monastic meditation) it gives insight in the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and selflessness of every compounded phenomena. With persistence in this observation and the resulting detachment from what can't possibly be one's self (body, feeling and consciousness) letting go might occur. Then the question 'when do we die' ceases with the question 'what are we'.

 

Actually, in Buddhist understanding, it is this very question with it's accompanying erroneous fabrications which bounds us to incessant re-becomings.

 

 

What should I say other than that I dont think the BUddhists got it right.

I think more like they do in Zen, the wish to become enlightened is again a step into the same trap which leads to greed, hate, envy and so on, but since I think that everyone of them got it wrong and the savage struggle, the wish to succed is what makes us what we are. There is a Prize at the end of all suffering, and denieing it because "you" see the world as illusion that wants to lead you astray from oblivion will only make you fail in the one game you could participate in. We are what we are because we are not accceptance, we are not compromise, nor understanding, but we are the last hominid standing, and we are standing on a large mountain of bones to which we will add everyone who tries to f*ck with us.

 

that was obviously offtopic.
 

[Guest]

I think you are asking the wrong kind of question. You have to be very, very precise in your wording and the concepts of "self" implied.

 

 

What is you? What is your personaly identity?

 

Is it (just) your memories?

 

Is it your sets of belief (in a broad sense - political belief, emotional concepts ("Justin Bieber is so great!"), moral guidelines concluded on your own or accepted from society)?

 

Is it what is casualy called "character" (angry all the time, controlled, bipolar and the different circumstances you display certain character traits etc.)

 

 

 

Does you concept of "self" hinge on being (always) conciouss? What is concioussnes to begin with?

 

Concioussnes is real, but not magic. You have to be careful not to asign properties of a "soul" to it. It is very important to note, that conscioussnes is a process - generated by the interaction of billions of neurons distributed all over your brain (including memory areas, the limbic system etc.). A good comparison for human sleep would be a computer, that is put on sleep-mode. Your concioussnes is a computer game generated by this computer; when you sleep it is put on pause-mode.

 

Now I ask you: if you are awake and conciouss, while someone is doing a surgical procedure on your brain (remember, that all your beliefs, memories and personality is represented by physical patterns in your brain - no unconnected soul hovering around); suddenly you forget everything you did in the years 2010/2011 - while all you beliefs and emotional patterns stay in place. Or suddenly you feel angry and act angry.

 

Is that still you? And how is that different from having a "regular" anger explosion - something people would say, "they were not themselfs for a moment"? And how is that different from doing that procedure while "your game" is on pause-mode?

 

 

The answer seems to be, that unless you are exceptionally well in evaluating yourself, in establishing core beliefs, in defining your actions by those core beliefs instead of random emotions or group-pressure - that what "is you" is rather arbitrary or even random. The good thing is, that beliefs, new memories etc. can only be received when the concioussnes process is active -. so in principle "you" can be in control, who you are, who you want to be. But arguably most people - even though "the game" is running - do not conciously evaluated the reason for their random emotions and their actions (which for most is not based on philosophical reflections of themselfs, but random emotions, commercials, group pressure etc.). They are not in control of their "self". Arguably there is no constant self for them.

 

And it is hard to get someone started on getting in control. It requires very frequent reflection about your actions and emotions - which is exhausting, if you are not used to it. Also you are basically constantly questioning yourself and you beliefs - seeking "the truth" or at least some kind of objective measures and guideslines. This can be very uncomfortable if you are defining yourself by some narrow beliefs ("I am die-hard NY-Mets-Fan" (why? is that justified? why? what is you contribution?), "I am a die-hard republican", "America is best!" etc.). And it forces you to think and evaluate a lot on your own. In other word - it requires a lot of effort and for many people with narrow beliefs about their identity it will be very uncomfortable. So it's not going to happen.

Edited by TFC, 12 March 2016 - 10:04 PM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

...

 

... A good comparison for human sleep would be a computer, that is put on sleep-mode. Your concioussnes is a computer game generated by this computer; when you sleep it is put on pause-mode.

...

 

Not exactly. We don't loose our consciousness while sleeping. Encephalograms proove that. Plus remembering even a small part of a dream means, that at least some of our consciousness has been active. Understanding what is going on in your dream also means, that there is a consciousness involved while you are dreaming. In this terms when your computers enters in sleeping mode, the game continues in somesort of modified pattern.

[A941]

 

...

 

... A good comparison for human sleep would be a computer, that is put on sleep-mode. Your concioussnes is a computer game generated by this computer; when you sleep it is put on pause-mode.

...

 

Not exactly. We don't loose our consciousness while sleeping. Encephalograms proove that. Plus remembering even a small part of a dream means, that at least some of our consciousness has been active. Understanding what is going on in your dream also means, that there is a consciousness involved while you are dreaming. In this terms when your computers enters in sleeping mode, the game continues in somesort of modified pattern.

 

 

Dont we loose consciousness completely during the deep sleep phase when many parts of the brain stop to communicate with each other?
 

[Multivitz]

When our liquid crystal(body) is in fair harmony, one's faculties become sensitive to the ever subtle energies that surround us, and have access to every information. This is the same as a rock, or a plants awareness. Some call it spirit and consider it as the self on some levels of consciousness. If unseen death forces the spirit to detach, sleep allows stillness for the cells to reharmonise and align to the spirits potential/character. One is free to meditate, but a shortfall of elements in the liquid crystal can give muted levels of information. The shortfall of many elements is engineered by phycopaths at every opportunity in the environment. Key elements are tap water, sulfur, silica, omega oils, zinc, magnesium, selenium, certain meals with amino acid imbalances, popularising genetically harmful foods (peanus, sugar, cucumbers, peas, GMO everything, seeds, etc), molybdenum, herbs, raw foods, sunlight, self beliefs. It's not an exhaustive list, but each element is important to all aspects of the experience without struggle. True health can see one's liquid crystal getting closer to a wholly state and allowing for a more satisfactory handling of information. With better decision making from better information handling comes efficiency. Contentment is, after all, the path to happiness. Sleep occures when acidity rises in the body and deactivates important enzymes. Casscade effects throughout the liquid crystal are ion effects caused by electric potential fluctuations from the solar body going behind the host planet. A heavy acid element to one's metabolism encourages death and sleep, nitrogen is acidic, most of our breathed air in nitrogen!
It's an overview, not gospel, not a complete overview, I hope it can help some.

Edited by Multivitz, 26 July 2016 - 01:59 AM.