11 replies to this topic

[Julia36]

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Basic_income

 

Different countries advancing it, either in principle or in pilots.

 

[niner]

A lot of people think that the UBI is going to be the only option when robotics and AI make humans increasingly obsolete.  Good luck getting it enacted in the US...

[Mind]

I don't mind small UBI trials. If it is a gradual thing, then we will have time to adapt to what-ever socio-economic system appears after our current market-based system.

 

What I am worried about it humans becoming useless and 100% dependent upon "the system". Once people stop working, stop learning, and stop acquiring skills, because they don't need to (because they have the UBI), then they will be totally helpless to whatever or whomever controls "the system". You will do what "the system" wants or else.

[niner]

The Alaska Permanent Fund dividend is an example of a UBI that's been going on right here in the US of A for decades.  It's a variable amount of money; the lowest was $331.29 in 1984 and the highest was $2,072 in 2015.  It depends on various factors including the price of oil and stock market performance.  Every Alaskan citizen gets it, even babies.  It's certainly not enough to live on, but would really run into some money over the course of your life if you stuck it straight into a Roth IRA every year.

[Mind]

The Alaska Permanent Fund dividend is an example of a UBI that's been going on right here in the US of A for decades.  It's a variable amount of money; the lowest was $331.29 in 1984 and the highest was $2,072 in 2015.  It depends on various factors including the price of oil and stock market performance.  Every Alaskan citizen gets it, even babies.  It's certainly not enough to live on, but would really run into some money over the course of your life if you stuck it straight into a Roth IRA every year.

 

It is an interesting small scale example, but does not come near the psychology/disruption of a real UBI that completely supports a person.

 

Commodity-based UBI works of course, because it is market based. The product (oil) is valuable (until recently). What a full-scale UBI will do is divorce positive/productive activity from wealth. Why be "good", when you will get your check every month no matter what.
 

[niner]

It is an interesting small scale example, but does not come near the psychology/disruption of a real UBI that completely supports a person.

 

Commodity-based UBI works of course, because it is market based. The product (oil) is valuable (until recently). What a full-scale UBI will do is divorce positive/productive activity from wealth. Why be "good", when you will get your check every month no matter what.

 

Yeah, I agree.  I think the way it might work is that it will be a small enough amount of money that there would still be motivation to do something.  It could have some positive outcomes like allowing people to start a small business instead of working at a dead end job.  The question remains whether or not the positive outcomes would outweigh the negative ones, like people spending all day playing video games in a squalid hovel instead of working.  Such a balance of profits and costs might become moot in the face of 50% unemployment and people forming roving armed bands looking for food and valuables.   The societal benefit of avoiding such a situation would probably be worth the cost of all that video game playing if it made it safe for the remaining people with jobs who would be paying for it.

[albedo]

It will be interesting to follow the debate which the Swiss will have as they will be the first to vote on such a proposal at national level:

http://www.thelocal....-income-for-all

[Florian Xavier]

Why be "good", when you will get your check every month no matter what.

 

If AI is better than humans, what are you talking about ?

[Mind]

Why be "good", when you will get your check every month no matter what.

 

If AI is better than humans, what are you talking about ?

 

I thought it was self-explanatory. Supporters of the UBI say if we give people money they are going to pursue all kinds of great things like art, exploration, scientific discovery, music, altruistic community support. That is not what will happen, IMO. If history is any guide, people on the UBI will pursue personal gratification. There will be no need to be productive or do anything "good" for your fellow human being. Everyone will be supported by "the system".
 

[sthira]

^^^ Maybe people pursuing personal gratification isn't such a bad thing. Be happy. Do your thing. Just try to walk gently on the earth, live simply, and don't hurt others intentionally. UBI may free us from the shackles of idiot-work. Of course some will abuse the system. Always there are selfish jerks amongst us. But many others won't. Many will pursue beautiful dreams and inspire others with talents formerly thwarted because they had to take junk meal orders for dipshit customers or tend bar or name any other mindless job that's better off left to mechanization. Live your dream. Think positive.

[Florian Xavier]

 

Why be "good", when you will get your check every month no matter what.

 

If AI is better than humans, what are you talking about ?

 

I thought it was self-explanatory. Supporters of the UBI say if we give people money they are going to pursue all kinds of great things like art, exploration, scientific discovery, music, altruistic community support. That is not what will happen, IMO. If history is any guide, people on the UBI will pursue personal gratification. There will be no need to be productive or do anything "good" for your fellow human being. Everyone will be supported by "the system".
 

 

 

That stupid because people want status, they are ready to pay to get it.

[Julia36]

Money is a big thing. It's complex abnd IMO not  widely understood.

I'm not sure I do, but I've been thinking about it for years, and what will rplace it.

 

Moneyis a tool(Kurzweil) and shoud be freely available until A.I. another tool morphs into its shoes.

 

 

One issue is do we expoect osmosis oif A.I. over money, or do we need to guide the change...

is there any way we can transsition from a money civilsation to one of smart free technology?

 

Minimising dangers, maximising advcantages?

 

http://www.ft.com/cm...l#axzz43omyIaNi

 

"Developed countries have to reform their welfare states to adapt to technological upheavals

 

"High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cm...l#ixzz43sNNuv5y

echnological upheavals of the 21st century.

“We built a whole social infrastructure based on the concept of a job, and that concept does not work any more,” he writes in his book Raising The Floor , to be published this year.

Instead, Mr Stern argues powerfully for the US government to provide a universal basic income (UBI) of $1,000 a month to every citizen. Such a guaranteed income, he says, could prove a smarter way of tackling poverty than the $1tn spent each year by 126 federal, state, and local anti-poverty programmes. It would also boost demand in the economy, give people more flexibility to retrain, look after children or elderly parents, start businesses and revive the promise of the American dream.

Such a proposal will strike many readers as mad. But in a world in which investors are paying some governments for the privilege of lending them money, it is no longer clear where the boundaries of economic sanity lie. Besides, the concept of rich societies giving poor citizens enough money so they are no longer poor does not strike everyone as insane.

Supporters of basic income have a long — and frustrated — history, dating back to the"