28 replies to this topic

[jaiho]

NSI-189 with Moclobemide.

or SSRI + TCA

or Meditation + NoFap.

 

Those helped me the most, i have the same condition.

[Adr1n]

Jaiho how did the NSI helped you?.. I'm looking for something to aid my hippocampus.. I feel it must be of the size of a peanut butter currently. I have a lot of trouble adapting to new enviroments, focusing, beign connected or present.. I always have a mild burning sensation at the back of my head when I try to just think coherently.

NSI seems to help some people.

[Sleepdealer]

A TCA is a tricyclic antidepressant. https://en.wikipedia..._antidepressant

[Omega 3 Snake Oil]

NSI-189 with Moclobemide.

or SSRI + TCA

or Meditation + NoFap.

 

Those helped me the most, i have the same condition.

 

What's your take on phone sex/sexting w/r/t NoFap? I find phone sex is like halfway between Fap and sex.

[Londonscouser]

I got the same problem which may be from cannabis induced panic attacks...

 

I've had at least 5-6 in my 6 years of smoking weed. This has led to feeling emotionally numb/anhedonic. I feel disconnected from emotional speaking. I find it nearly impossible to socialize now, as i've lost intuition of social cues, and i don't derive pleasure from socializing.

 

Only thing is, i'm not depersonalized

[ThreeKings12341]

Omg i have the symptoms also:
Emotionaly
Dullness .. Actually numbness for yeaaars.. But no depersonalisation..

I have my blood test going on soon...

I used 2 smoke pot aso a lot but i think my anedhonia is coming drom to much sadness and crying in life or maybe it is dopamine, gaba or something related?

Arent there
Any recommandations for for supplementing??? I neeeeed my emotions back

[Londonscouser]

Omg i have the symptoms also:
Emotionaly
Dullness .. Actually numbness for yeaaars.. But no depersonalisation..

I have my blood test going on soon...

I used 2 smoke pot aso a lot but i think my anedhonia is coming drom to much sadness and crying in life or maybe it is dopamine, gaba or something related?

Arent there
Any recommandations for for supplementing??? I neeeeed my emotions back

Yo dude, i got the exact same emotional dullness but no depersonalization from smoking a lot of cannabis...

 

When was the last time you smoked?

[ThreeKings12341]

I answered in the other thread your question, but i would recommend to stop smoking weed(if u still), since we
Cannot really know (or do we ?-im new to this new whole thing wirh nooteopika) if it dames u even more?

I must say that weed gave me the feeling of hapiness when laughing hard ... But not more .. It made me so compulsive thinking (which stopped since taking
Nac), insomnia ... And so on

[Hip]

i am 19 yrs old and have been progressively losing my emotion for now 6 month, of what i feel totally numb since three month. i believe i have anhedonia as i feel no pleasure and envy to do things and depersonalization as i feel disconnected from my body and my affect.

 

 

Did you by any chance have an infection (like a gastrointestinal upset or sore throat) just before these loss of emotion and anhedonia symptoms started? 

 

I had the same symptoms after catching the virus described on my website here.

 

Some supplements that I found help a little with the loss of emotion and anhedonia are detailed here.

 

[gamesguru]

it's social anhedonia or affective flattening, mostly glutamate and dopamie related. theres OTC/herbal supps

[Hip]

 

No i didn't catch any infection or disease, i'v also heard other people talking about this but it's not my case

 

 

 

It is hard to know this for sure, because sometimes infections are caught asymptotically, or almost asymptotically.

 

Note that emotional flatness (“blunted affect”) is slightly different from anhedonia, though these two are often confused.

 

In anhedonia, the experience of pleasure from daily activities, and the sense of reward on completing tasks, is weak or absent. Whereas in emotional flatness, life’s normal emotional responses (love, sadness, compassion, guilt, anger, joy, surprise, etc) are weak or absent.

 

When anhedonia gets severe, it can lead to intense suicidal ideation (thoughts about suicide). I had severe anhedonia for years (it appeared rapidly after a viral infection with coxsackievirus B).

[gamesguru]

yes i agree with your terms, i believe lamotrigine does act on glutamate. What OTC/herbal supplements are you thinking of/recommand, please share.

 

it's also "emotional blunting". unfortunately it involves serotonin and dopamine too; it's very difficult to treat with pharms, let alone without.

• curcumin inhibits mPFC glutamate release, mimicing riluzole
• Apigenin and proanthocyanidin inhibit hippocampal Glu
• Myricetin inhibits cerebrocortical Glu.
• "Harmine has been found to increase EAAT2 glutamate pump expression in central nervous system, therefore reducing glutamate toxicity." [it also affects 5-HT receptor site densities, on blood platelets at least, iirc]
• theanine reduces glutotoxicity
• low glutamic acid diet
• Lactobacillus rhamnosus, it promotes GABA expression

the closest we got to lamotrigine in the wild is lappaconitine:

Lappaconitine is an alkaloid originally isolated from species of Aconitum that exhibits analgesic, antinociceptive, anti-inflammatory, anti-arrhythmic, and antiepileptic/anticonvulsant activities. Lappaconitine increases pain threshold and downregulates expression of P2X3 receptors in dorsal root ganglion (DRG) neurons in models of chronic constrictive injury. Lappaconitine also inhibits paw and ear edema in vivo. In vitro, this compound inhibits excitability of hippocampal pyramidal cells and decreases epileptiform burst duration. Additionally, lappaconitine displays class I anti-arrhythmic activity, inducing negative inotropic activity in vivo and inhibiting human heart Na+ channels by binding at neurotoxin site 2.

Irreversible Block of Human Heart (hH1) Sodium Channels by the Plant Alkaloid Lappaconitine
Sterling N. Wright (2001)

The roots from Aconitum sp. plants have long been used in Chinese herbal medicine for treating pain and various heart conditions. The principal component of Aconitum remedies is usually aconitine, a site 2 neurotoxin that may induce severe neurological symptoms and cardiovascular collapse. SomeAconitum species also contain lappaconitine, the structure of which is remarkably similar to that of aconitine. In contrast to aconitine, a sodium channel agonist, lappaconitine reportedly blocks voltage-gated sodium channels in heart tissue. The results in the present study demonstrate that lappaconitine blocks cloned human heart (hH1) sodium channels under whole-cell, voltage-clamp conditions. Lappaconitine binding has several characteristics in common with the binding of site 2 neurotoxins, such as aconitine and batrachotoxin. For example, lappaconitine binds almost exclusively to open channels, but has little affect on resting or inactivated channels. Moreover, lappaconitine binding is inhibited by bupivacaine, a tertiary amine local anesthetic. Whereas site 2 neurotoxins often irreversibly modify channel kinetics, lappaconitine irreversibly blocks the channels.

we see it's very relevant:

In addition, sodium currents in nucleus accumbens neurons are persistently reduced after treatment with cocaine, a drug which increases dopaminergic neurotransmission by blocking dopamine reuptake (Zhang et al. 1998). This effect on sodium channels correlates with the symptoms of anergia, anhedonia, and depression that accompany cocaine treatment (Zhang et al. 1998). These results provide the first in vivo evidence for potential behavioral consequences of neuromodulation of sodium channels.

Frequency-dependent inhibition of neuronal activity by lappaconitine in normal and epileptic hippocampal slices
Angela Ameri*, Petra Metzmeier and Thies Peters (2012)

The activity-dependent action of lappaconitine raised the question of whether the drug is effective in suppressing the aberrant neuronal activity that occurs during an epileptic seizure. The results obtained from experiments on epileptic hippocampal slices demonstrated a selective reduction of the later spikes in the bursts with less effect on normal neuronal activity.
These data support the conclusion that lappaconitine, in addition to its antinociceptive effect, also has antiepileptic potency due to its highly activity-dependent mode of action.

other considerations

For dopamine,

    COMT inhibitors
    VMAT inhibitors (in moderation)
    DBH inhibitors
    DOPA decarboxylase promoters
    dietary tyrosine

For glutamate,

    PKC inhibitors (those also have a role in dopamine)

Glutamate release inhibitors

    Bromocriptine (also a D2 agonist)
    Curcumin (already mentioned)
    note: green tea EGCG evokes a minor glutamate release, and might be expected to worsen mania

Glutamate antagonists

    Kaitocephalin
    Ibogaine
    Ketamine
    Memantine

Presynaptic GABA antagonists

    Ginkgo (GABAA, also glycine antagonist)
    Ginseng (GABAA and GABAB) [they both increase PFC dopamine, that should reduce Glu, and have some serotonin modulating properties. should be helpful]

Akt and TrkB affect glutamate release

    Tenuifoliside A (TrkB activator)
    Psoralidin (Akt inhibitor)
    Lithium (TrkB actiavator, Akt and mGlur5 inhibitor)

GLDH Inhibitors

    Radix scutellariae
    Radix codonopsis
    Radix paeoniae alba

 

and look into other things like RCs, LLLT, CILTEP/happystack, tDCS/TDS, dual-n-back, exercise

Edited by gamesguru, 14 June 2016 - 01:44 PM.

[Blackkzeus]

No i didn't catch any infection or disease, i'v also heard other people talking about this but it's not my case

It is hard to know this for sure, because sometimes infections are caught asymptotically, or almost asymptotically.

Note that emotional flatness (“blunted affect”) is slightly different from anhedonia, though these two are often confused.

In anhedonia, the experience of pleasure from daily activities, and the sense of reward on completing tasks, is weak or absent. Whereas in emotional flatness, life’s normal emotional responses (love, sadness, compassion, guilt, anger, joy, surprise, etc) are weak or absent.

When anhedonia gets severe, it can lead to intense suicidal ideation (thoughts about suicide). I had severe anhedonia for years (it appeared rapidly after a viral infection with coxsackievirus B).

A lot of the times I feel individuals have Both.

after reading your blog I think my anhedonia, severe fatigue, and brain fog may stem from a chronic infection. I don't think it's the one you have tho because I never had any sinus issues.

[Hip]

 

A lot of the times I feel individuals have Both.

after reading your blog I think my anhedonia, severe fatigue, and brain fog may stem from a chronic infection. I don't think it's the one you have tho because I never had any sinus issues.

 

 

Yes, blunted emotions often comes with anhedonia, which is probably why people lump the two together. Though the supplements I discovered help treat anhedonia generally don't help blunted emotions, and vice versa. So this shows that they are different.

 

But both blunted emotions and anhedonia both seem to have their own negative effects on your life, though.

 

 

 

If you also have severe fatigue and brain fog, have considered a diagnosis of myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME), also known as chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS)?

 

ME/CFS is linked to a number of viruses, including the suspected coxsackievirus B that I caught, but also other viruses such as Epstein-Barr virus, HHV-6, and parvovirus B19. A good ME/CFS doctor will test you for all these viruses, and if you have an active infection with one or more of them, those active infections may be causing your ME/CFS.

 

Some info on testing and treating ME/CFS is given here:

 

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome — A Roadmap For Testing And Treatment

 

 

 

By the way, my virus did not cause sinus and nasal issues in everyone who caught it; so the fact that you do not have sinus symptoms does not rule my virus out.

Edited by Hip, 14 June 2016 - 08:07 PM.

[Blackkzeus]

 

 

A lot of the times I feel individuals have Both.

after reading your blog I think my anhedonia, severe fatigue, and brain fog may stem from a chronic infection. I don't think it's the one you have tho because I never had any sinus issues.

 

 

Yes, blunted emotions often comes with anhedonia, which is probably why people lump the two together. Though the supplements I discovered help treat anhedonia generally don't help blunted emotions, and vice versa. So this shows that they are different.

 

But both blunted emotions and anhedonia both seem to have their own negative effects on your life, though.

 

 

 

If you also have severe fatigue and brain fog, have considered a diagnosis of myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME), also known as chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS)?

 

ME/CFS is linked to a number of viruses, including the suspected coxsackievirus B that I caught, but also other viruses such as Epstein-Barr virus, HHV-6, and parvovirus B19. A good ME/CFS doctor will test you for all these viruses, and if you have an active infection with one or more of them, those active infections may be causing your ME/CFS.

 

Some info on testing and treating ME/CFS is given here:

 

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome — A Roadmap For Testing And Treatment

 

 

 

By the way, my virus did not cause sinus and nasal issues in everyone who caught it; so the fact that you do not have sinus symptoms does not rule my virus out.

 

 

 

Have you tried a ketosis diet for your symptoms?

[Hip]

 

Have you tried a ketosis diet for your symptoms?

 

 

 

Not yet, but it has been on my radar to try for a while now. I know at least one person with who, like myself, has myalgic encephalomyelitis (chronic fatigue syndrome), and did well on a ketogenic diet. And there are reports of it helping depression.

 

 

In fact, recently I was working on an idea of mine about how one could fuel the brain on ketone bodies without actually having to adhere to a ketogenic diet. This idea is to take tiny amounts of food grade acetone diluted in lots of water. Acetone is one of ketone bodies formed during ketosis (acetone makes up about 2% of these ketone bodies).

 

Acetone has been shown to have anticonvulsant effects in animal models of epilepsy, and no toxicity when administered in millimolar concentrations (a 1 millimolar concentration I think works out to around 1 drop of acetone per liter of water; though since this is a rat study, you'd need to divide this dose by around 6.2 to get the equivalent human dose, so that is works out to 0.16 of a drop of acetone per liter of water for humans).

 

It has been hypothesized that the high-fat low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet used clinically to control drug-resistant epilepsy in children works by elevating acetone in the brain. Ref: 1 So acetone may be the key player in terms of the benefits provided by the ketogenic diet, at least for epilepsy. 

 

More info: Anticonvulsant properties of acetone, a brain ketone elevated by the ketogenic diet.

 

However, I am not sure if it might be dangerous to ingest acetone. 

Edited by Hip, 15 June 2016 - 03:15 AM.

[Blackkzeus]

 

 

Have you tried a ketosis diet for your symptoms?

 

 

 

Not yet, but it has been on my radar to try for a while now. I know at least one person with who, like myself, has myalgic encephalomyelitis (chronic fatigue syndrome), and did well on a ketogenic diet. And there are reports of it helping depression.

 

 

In fact, recently I was working on an idea of mine about how one could fuel the brain on ketone bodies without actually having to adhere to a ketogenic diet. This idea is to take tiny amounts of food grade acetone diluted in lots of water. Acetone is one of ketone bodies formed during ketosis (acetone makes up about 2% of these ketone bodies).

 

Acetone has been shown to have anticonvulsant effects in animal models of epilepsy, and no toxicity when administered in millimolar concentrations (a 1 millimolar concentration I think works out to around 1 drop of acetone per liter of water; though since this is a rat study, you'd need to divide this dose by around 6.2 to get the equivalent human dose, so that is works out to 0.16 of a drop of acetone per liter of water for humans).

 

It has been hypothesized that the high-fat low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet used clinically to control drug-resistant epilepsy in children works by elevating acetone in the brain. Ref: 1 So acetone may be the key player in terms of the benefits provided by the ketogenic diet, at least for epilepsy. 

 

More info: Anticonvulsant properties of acetone, a brain ketone elevated by the ketogenic diet.

 

However, I am not sure if it might be dangerous to ingest acetone. 

 

 

Interesting. It would be amazing getting into ketosis without actually doing the diet. I've been trying to get into ketosis but always fail to keep up with the diet. 

 

anyway, which supplements would you say have really helped you with brain fog, fatigue, and anhedonia?

[gamesguru]

50g is already pseudo-ketosis

However, I am not sure if it might be dangerous to ingest acetone.

The two larger ketone bodies are pretty harmless. The acetone might be safe because your body titrates itself up, but it's not like being tossed unexpectedly in a gasy room. Or the bad effects are just balanced out by good ones? Cause if you look at wartime and workplace exposures, clearly persistent contrive dysfunction is reported. And I don't see how breathing it is safer than it coming from your own metabolism.

[Hip]

 

anyway, which supplements would you say have really helped you with brain fog, fatigue, and anhedonia?

 

 

I listed all the supplements and drugs that I found helpful for brain fog, fatigue, and anhedonia on this page of my website (see the index table at the top of the page). I found these through trial and error testing of many hundreds of supplements and drugs. The best overall supplement for fatigue and brain fog I found to high dose selenomethionine 400 mcg daily on an empty stomach. Selenium has antiviral properties, and may work by reducing viral loads, which in turn reduce the symptoms. 

 

Anhedonia is very difficult to treat. Overall, my anhedonia slowly improved a lot after regularly taking anti-inflammatory supplements that reduce gut and brain inflammation (supplements such as N-acetyl-glucosamine, vinpocetine and turmeric). New research shows brain inflammation may underlie many mental symptoms.

Edited by Hip, 15 June 2016 - 01:05 PM.

[Hip]

The two larger ketone bodies are pretty harmless. The acetone might be safe because your body titrates itself up, but it's not like being tossed unexpectedly in a gasy room. Or the bad effects are just balanced out by good ones? Cause if you look at wartime and workplace exposures, clearly persistent contrive dysfunction is reported. And I don't see how breathing it is safer than it coming from your own metabolism.

 

Yes, I am a bit confused by the safety and toxicity issues surrounding acetone. 

 

In this book, they say that during a ketogenic diet, blood acetone concentrations range from 0.071 to 0.935 grams per liter. These concentrations correspond to concentrations of 1.2 to 16.1 mmol/L.

 

And NMR spectroscopic measurements of people on ketogenic diets suggest the acetone concentration in the brain is around 1 mmol per kg of brain weight. 

 

 

So given that an average human has around 5 liters of blood, during ketosis you may have up to 5 grams of acetone in your blood, and I would think at least the same amount in your tissues. So I would estimate something of the order of 10 grams of acetone in your body.

 

Yet if you look in this document, it says that the acute lethal dose for a human is estimated to be 50 ml of acetone, which will weigh around 40 grams. (It also says that 15.2 grams given orally daily to man over several days produced only slight drowsiness but no other ill effects).

 

It seems strange that the lethal dose of 40 grams is not much higher than the 10 gram amount of acetone in the body, generated by normal metabolism during ketosis. 

 

However, it could be that the above lethal dose estimate is wrong. In this material safety data sheet for acetone, it gives the oral TD_LO for humans 2.9 gram/kg (leads to coma). TD_LO = lowest dose that is toxic to a given species.

 

So for a 85 kg human, that oral TD_LO corresponds to ingesting 247 grams of acetone (corresponds to 312 ml of acetone).

 

So that it a much higher figure for the toxic dose. I am not sure which is correct, the 50 ml estimate, or the 312 ml figure.

Edited by Hip, 15 June 2016 - 02:02 PM.

[gamesguru]

it was mentioned, i think in the other thread, that "keto-adaptation" plays a major role, with symptoms such as headaches emerging during the transition phase but resolving soon after. i think that's what's going on here. so at least, it is, with the odor of the fumes:

Loss of sensitivity due to adaptation and/or habituation to acetone odor may occur, as was shown in studies comparing workers previously exposed to acetone with previously unexposed subjects.

Edited by gamesguru, 15 June 2016 - 04:10 PM.

[Hip]

 

it was mentioned, i think in the other thread, that "keto-adaptation" plays a major role, with symptoms such as headaches emerging during the transition phase but resolving soon after. i think that's what's going on here. so at least, it is, with the odor of the fumes:

 

Right, so if there is an adaption to acetone, possibly the acetone LD50 will vary according to how much an individual is habituated to acetone. In other words, there might be a tolerance effect with acetone, as is seen with opioids such as heroin, where someone currently habituated to heroin can take large doses that would normally be fatal to that person if the same dose were taken when they are not habituated.

[gamesguru]

it's also important to differentiate fatal overdoses from sub-lethal damage, which often occurs at one tenth the dose and can be irreversible. my point was that the body adapts itself in both contexts, quite obviously, or ketosis would be causing cognitive deficits (as seen in exposed Gulf War veterans). all wonderful facts to share with your friends over lunch as you whaff your provocative keto-breath in the general direction of their nostrils.

Edited by gamesguru, 16 June 2016 - 05:38 PM.

[Bennyy214]

In the same situation, it's god awful did you find anything to relieve ur suffering? this sucks

[Bennyy214]

In the same situation, it's god awful did you find anything to relieve ur suffering? this sucks

[Justin BoBustinBananaFanaF]

In the same situation, it's god awful did you find anything to relieve ur suffering? this sucks

 

I've had minimal emotions for some time. Many of my positive emotions have come back but since I've tried many different things it's hard to say why. It could've just been time.

How've you been doing?