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Quercetin, more or faster?

p53 senolytic

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#1 YOLF

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:52 PM


I've been looking at quercetin, some new micelle quercetin is now available and I'm wondering whether more is better, or faster or better. The micelle is equivalent to 850mg? or I could just take 1g of quercetin. The price is about the same. 

 

So micellar is rapidly absorbed and would likely be used much faster therefore inundating the target cells and having more potent effects. At least that's what I'm thinking.

 

On the other hand, larger doses might last longer and cause more sustained activity. 

 

So is less more in this case? 

 

Maybe both just to let the other stuff mop up whatever the micelle quercetin didn't finish off?


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#2 maxwatt

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 07:10 PM

Barring some pharmokinetic studies, and knowledge of the metabolic pathways you are interested in affecting, it is impossible to say.  You might try both and compare the effects, if you notice any, or any difference - though with a sample size of one this is not the most reliable, unless it is repeated under enough times with varying conditions.

 

One metabolite of quercetin blocks the action of SIRT1, which has led many here to denigrate it.  But SIRT1 is not the entire story.


Edited by maxwatt, 07 April 2016 - 11:52 AM.

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#3 YOLF

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 11:19 PM

I'll settle for theoreticals... maybe we can commission some science? Several lab could do it for us.



#4 Dorian Grey

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 05:40 AM

I have toxic exposures at work (chloroprene), and sometimes notice ill effects from this.  

 

I've taken both simple quercetin and quercetin + bromelain and both seem to fix me up in short order.  If I come home feeling punky and drop a Q with dinner, I'm feelin' fine in no time.  

 

Don't know if I'd fool around with the fancy stuff (micelle) as I get good results from the old school stuff.  

 

I've never been a fan of the "more is better" philosophy with supplements, and never have taken more than one cap/day.  I've also noticed the sides of my tongue sometimes get sore when taking quercetin daily for a week or more, and have started cycling on and off it for optimal results.  I take it when I feel toxic, and skip it when I don't.  

 

Great stuff, but more isn't always better.  



#5 YOLF

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 06:54 PM

Sounds like a good strategy.



#6 Ohm

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 07:59 PM

Capers have supplement levels of quercetin in mother nature's nutritional package, and can be purchased cheaply at most grocery stores.  They can be eaten straight from the bottle, or thrown in a salad.  I do not understand why people supplement with this stuff.  (It would be interesting to see bioavailability of the substance in natural food vs supplement pills)

 

 

MarioCapers.png



#7 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 08:28 PM

Capers have supplement levels of quercetin in mother nature's nutritional package, and can be purchased cheaply at most grocery stores.  They can be eaten straight from the bottle, or thrown in a salad.  I do not understand why people supplement with this stuff.  (It would be interesting to see bioavailability of the substance in natural food vs supplement pills)

 

 

MarioCapers.png

 

 

There are about 14.8 milligrams in a typical 1-tablespoon serving of capers...

So of you are considering killing off senescent cells, please take 236 Tablespoons if you are considering 3.5 Grams of quercetin and you are about 70kgs.

 

Cheers

Anthony



#8 Ohm

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 08:41 PM

100g capers is approx.180mg of quercetin.

 

Source: http://www.quercetin...view/food-chart

 

 

100g of capers / 180mg quercetin, is approx. $2.38 USD per serving.

 

Source: http://shop.countdow...tockcode=264748

 

 

Is the bioavailability of quercetin extract in a gelatin capsule equivalent to quercetin in a complete food package?  

 

Are the benefits of quercetin to human metabolism the same in either form in equivalent amounts?



#9 normalizing

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 02:20 AM

you should have also mentioned the high salt content. 100g packs like 10 grams of salt


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#10 joelcairo

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:24 AM

Without doing the exact math, eating capers looks like it costs 10X as much for 1/3 of the amount of quercetin in a capsule. Plus you have to eat a cup of capers every day. This is why people use supplements rather than trying to do it all through their diet. Probably the capers are somewhat more bioavailable (I know the quercetin in onions is more readily absorbed than supplements), but I still give the edge to the capsules.


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#11 normalizing

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 12:43 PM

how is it more bioavailable from onions? maybe it has other things that enhance it...



#12 Ohm

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 04:42 PM

Without doing the exact math, eating capers looks like it costs 10X as much for 1/3 of the amount of quercetin in a capsule. Plus you have to eat a cup of capers every day. This is why people use supplements rather than trying to do it all through their diet. Probably the capers are somewhat more bioavailable (I know the quercetin in onions is more readily absorbed than supplements), but I still give the edge to the capsules.

 

Food is a daily necessity/expense.  If you eat food which has components beneficial to health, you essentially spend nothing extra in comparison to someone who eats food which doesn't have the components but then pays extra for supplements.

 

If you have information demonstrating a clear advantage of overloading quercetin in a capsule please share it.  So far, in my view, the case has not been made for supplementation of this extract.



#13 joelcairo

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:59 PM

how is it more bioavailable from onions? maybe it has other things that enhance it...

 

That may be part of the answer, but quercetin also occurs in a variety of forms which are more bioavailable or less bioavailable. Onion has a large proportion of quercetin as a glycoside (bound to a sugar molecule), and that results in good absorption.

 

In the study below, the conclusion was that: "Bioavailability of quercetin from apples and of pure quercetin rutinoside was both 30% relative to onions."Unfortunately I checked some quercetin supplements and they sometimes specific a natural source but generally do not specify the exact type or combinations of quercetin in the capsule.

 

http://www.sciencedi...014579397013677


Edited by joelcairo, 06 April 2016 - 06:44 PM.


#14 joelcairo

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 06:04 PM

 

Without doing the exact math, eating capers looks like it costs 10X as much for 1/3 of the amount of quercetin in a capsule. Plus you have to eat a cup of capers every day. This is why people use supplements rather than trying to do it all through their diet. Probably the capers are somewhat more bioavailable (I know the quercetin in onions is more readily absorbed than supplements), but I still give the edge to the capsules.

 

Food is a daily necessity/expense.  If you eat food which has components beneficial to health, you essentially spend nothing extra in comparison to someone who eats food which doesn't have the components but then pays extra for supplements.

 

If you have information demonstrating a clear advantage of overloading quercetin in a capsule please share it.  So far, in my view, the case has not been made for supplementation of this extract.

 

 

If I thought you had actually evaluated the evidence for quercetin then I might take the bait. But there is an enormous amount of research into quercetin and anyone can easily find it. Quercetin has an amazing number of effects on cancer-related processes. Personally I would put it alongside curcumin and EGCG in terms of being an essential nutrient for cancer patients.
 



#15 YOLF

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 07:35 PM

 

Without doing the exact math, eating capers looks like it costs 10X as much for 1/3 of the amount of quercetin in a capsule. Plus you have to eat a cup of capers every day. This is why people use supplements rather than trying to do it all through their diet. Probably the capers are somewhat more bioavailable (I know the quercetin in onions is more readily absorbed than supplements), but I still give the edge to the capsules.

 

Food is a daily necessity/expense.  If you eat food which has components beneficial to health, you essentially spend nothing extra in comparison to someone who eats food which doesn't have the components but then pays extra for supplements.

 

If you have information demonstrating a clear advantage of overloading quercetin in a capsule please share it.  So far, in my view, the case has not been made for supplementation of this extract.

 

 

It all depends on the number of benefits you want... If you want all of them, you'd be eating a house every day and spending tons more than you would on supplements. Not to mention you'd weigh 600 pounds and be spending tons on cryolipolysis etc.

 

So there are tons of benefits to be had by sticking to nutrient dense foods and supplementing. You also aren't limited to food choices if you take supps. I can eat basically anything that meets my fancy and get all the benefits every day without getting bored with my food choices.

 

If I was simply to eat cappers for quercetin, I'd basically eat them for a week, get bored and forget about them. I'd just be bouncing around between things with no consistent benefits in the long term like I get with supplementing.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still want to eat healthy, there's no benefit to taking all of this stuff if I'm stuffing my face with fast food. 



#16 Ohm

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 08:48 PM

 

 

Without doing the exact math, eating capers looks like it costs 10X as much for 1/3 of the amount of quercetin in a capsule. Plus you have to eat a cup of capers every day. This is why people use supplements rather than trying to do it all through their diet. Probably the capers are somewhat more bioavailable (I know the quercetin in onions is more readily absorbed than supplements), but I still give the edge to the capsules.

 

Food is a daily necessity/expense.  If you eat food which has components beneficial to health, you essentially spend nothing extra in comparison to someone who eats food which doesn't have the components but then pays extra for supplements.

 

If you have information demonstrating a clear advantage of overloading quercetin in a capsule please share it.  So far, in my view, the case has not been made for supplementation of this extract.

 

 

If I thought you had actually evaluated the evidence for quercetin then I might take the bait. But there is an enormous amount of research into quercetin and anyone can easily find it. Quercetin has an amazing number of effects on cancer-related processes. Personally I would put it alongside curcumin and EGCG in terms of being an essential nutrient for cancer patients.
 

 

 

 

I guess one man's "enormous amount of research" is another's "the jury is still out"...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quercetin is a Bioflavonoids found in fruits and vegetables, but highest levels are found in apples and onions. 

Like many other bioflavonoids, Quercetin has anti-oxidant, anti-artherogenic, and anti-carcinogenic properties. Quercetin is also neuroactive, with some of the same abilities as Caffeine but less potent.

There is a divide between the effects seen in quercetin in in vitro (cell cultured) studies and in vivo (in living) studies, with cell studies showing great results that are not that amazing in humans or animals. This is mostly due to quercetin having low oral bioavailability (low percentage of the compound is absorbed and put to use), but could also be due to in vitro studies using a form of quercetin called 'quercetin aglycone' whereas this particular form is never found in the blood, even after ingested, as it it gets changed in the liver.

Many studies also note a high range of differences between people who ingest the same amount of quercetin, suggesting a large degree of variability is possible with supplementation.

 

 

https://examine.com/...ch/?q=quercetin



#17 Ohm

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 09:00 PM

 

 

Without doing the exact math, eating capers looks like it costs 10X as much for 1/3 of the amount of quercetin in a capsule. Plus you have to eat a cup of capers every day. This is why people use supplements rather than trying to do it all through their diet. Probably the capers are somewhat more bioavailable (I know the quercetin in onions is more readily absorbed than supplements), but I still give the edge to the capsules.

 

Food is a daily necessity/expense.  If you eat food which has components beneficial to health, you essentially spend nothing extra in comparison to someone who eats food which doesn't have the components but then pays extra for supplements.

 

If you have information demonstrating a clear advantage of overloading quercetin in a capsule please share it.  So far, in my view, the case has not been made for supplementation of this extract.

 

 

It all depends on the number of benefits you want... If you want all of them, you'd be eating a house every day and spending tons more than you would on supplements. Not to mention you'd weigh 600 pounds and be spending tons on cryolipolysis etc.

 

So there are tons of benefits to be had by sticking to nutrient dense foods and supplementing. You also aren't limited to food choices if you take supps. I can eat basically anything that meets my fancy and get all the benefits every day without getting bored with my food choices.

 

If I was simply to eat cappers for quercetin, I'd basically eat them for a week, get bored and forget about them. I'd just be bouncing around between things with no consistent benefits in the long term like I get with supplementing.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still want to eat healthy, there's no benefit to taking all of this stuff if I'm stuffing my face with fast food. 

 

 

Demonstrate the benefits you get with buying/consuming quercetin pills and I will begin supplementing them myself...



#18 joelcairo

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 09:12 PM

Again, anyone who cares to look at the actual research rather than reading a predigested summary will find many hundreds of in vivo studies showing a benefit against cancer and other conditions.

 

I can see numerous clinical studies as well that show a definite biological effect in patients, but they are for a diverse set of medical conditions (diabetes, cardiovascular issues, infections, etc.) and are hard to characterize as a group. Obviously you would expect it to be beneficial for some conditions and not others.


Edited by joelcairo, 06 April 2016 - 09:13 PM.


#19 YOLF

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 09:15 PM

Like I said, are you going to eat tons of stuff everyday to get all the benefits? Is doing so going to counter those benefits with an abundance of carbs and other food junk? Eating healthy is great for single benefits, but in realty, the benefits are inconsistent when from food. 



#20 Ohm

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 02:00 PM

Like I said, are you going to eat tons of stuff everyday to get all the benefits? Is doing so going to counter those benefits with an abundance of carbs and other food junk? Eating healthy is great for single benefits, but in realty, the benefits are inconsistent when from food. 

 

Like I said, what benefits?



#21 stefan_001

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 05:42 PM

 

Like I said, are you going to eat tons of stuff everyday to get all the benefits? Is doing so going to counter those benefits with an abundance of carbs and other food junk? Eating healthy is great for single benefits, but in realty, the benefits are inconsistent when from food. 

 

Like I said, what benefits?

 

 

I bought a can couple months ago but it has stayed unopened, my interest was in killing scenescent cells. There is a good thread about that here:

http://www.longecity...nds-healthspan/

 

 

and possible other benefits. But readng more hasn't given enough reasons to open it yet. Here a recent article:

 

Quercetin research review shows inconsistent effects on immunity and inflammation

http://www.timelessl...d-inflammation/

I keep reading......


Edited by stefan_001, 08 April 2016 - 05:43 PM.


#22 YOLF

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 05:58 PM

 

Like I said, are you going to eat tons of stuff everyday to get all the benefits? Is doing so going to counter those benefits with an abundance of carbs and other food junk? Eating healthy is great for single benefits, but in realty, the benefits are inconsistent when from food. 

 

Like I said, what benefits?

 

It's simply ignorant not to recognize that supplements have benefits. There is lots of stuff demonstrating it. Try some, you'll understand.



#23 YOLF

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 06:01 PM

 

 

Like I said, are you going to eat tons of stuff everyday to get all the benefits? Is doing so going to counter those benefits with an abundance of carbs and other food junk? Eating healthy is great for single benefits, but in realty, the benefits are inconsistent when from food. 

 

Like I said, what benefits?

 

 

I bought a can couple months ago but it has stayed unopened, my interest was in killing scenescent cells. There is a good thread about that here:

http://www.longecity...nds-healthspan/

 

 

and possible other benefits. But readng more hasn't given enough reasons to open it yet. Here a recent article:

 

Quercetin research review shows inconsistent effects on immunity and inflammation

http://www.timelessl...d-inflammation/

I keep reading......

 

 

Quercetin doesn't need to be taken daily for the most part, higher doses once a week are going to have the better results and shorter lived "inconsistent effects." But eating onions daily seems to be generally good for lifespan, sex hormones, and maximizing life.



#24 joelcairo

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 06:21 PM

 

Like I said, are you going to eat tons of stuff everyday to get all the benefits? Is doing so going to counter those benefits with an abundance of carbs and other food junk? Eating healthy is great for single benefits, but in realty, the benefits are inconsistent when from food. 

 

Like I said, what benefits?

 

 

 

Really? It's impossible to do any research whatsoever? Here are some published studies I was able to find in about 10 minutes. They show some significant anticancer effects and demonstrate clinical activity in human patients with specific conditions. As I said, quercetin presumably works on some medical conditions but not others, under some specific test conditions but not others, so you can't expect every study to show positive and statistically significant results.

 

The flavonoid quercetin inhibits pancreatic cancer growth in vitro and in vivo
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3530623/

Quercetin decreases tumorigenesis in a mouse model of breast cancer
http://www.fasebj.or...bstracts/862.30

Enhanced inhibition of prostate cancer xenograft tumor growth by combining quercetin and green tea
[effect was demonstrated separately and was increased when the substances were used in combination]
http://www.sciencedi...95528631300199X

Treatment of interstitial cystitis with a quercetin supplement

[clinical trial, p =.000001]
http://europepmc.org...ct/med/11272677

Quercetin Reduces Blood Pressure in Hypertensive Subjects
http://jn.nutrition....37/11/2405.full
 


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#25 ta5

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 11:55 PM

Rutin might be a better way to get quercetin, if you're a rat. Posted here:

 

Journal of Health Science, 46(4) 229–240 (2000) 229

Effects of Quercetin and Rutin on Serum and Hepatic Lipid Concentrations, Fecal Steroid Excretion and Serum Antioxidant
Yumiko Nakamura,* Susumu Ishimitsu, and Yasuhide Tonogai
Division of Food Chemistry, National Institute of Health Sciences, Osaka Branch, 1–1–43, Hoenzaka, Chuo-ku, Osaka 540–0006, Japan
Effects of quercetin and rutin on serum and hepatic lipid concentrations, fecal steroid excretion and their antioxidant properties were investigated in rats by oral administration. No toxic symptom was observed even at the dose of 1.0 g/kg of quercetin or rutin. Serum and hepatic lipid concentrations and fecal steroid excretion was not influenced remarkably, but serum thiobarbituric acid reactive substances (TBARS) decreased dose-dependently with the administration of quercetin or rutin. The decrease of serum TBARS was significantly correlated with the increase of serum free flavonoids (p < 0.05–0.001). Serum flavonoid concentrations, especially free quercetin, were higher in rutin-administered rats than in quercetin-administered rats at doses of 1.0 g/kg for 10 d (p < 0.05– 0.001). When 1.0 g/kg of quercetin or rutin was administered in a single dose, they remained in the blood as aglycone or their conjugates of quercetin and isorhamnetin, even three days after administration. Recovered fla- vonoids were only 0.13% and 0.89% in urine for 3 d and 0.03% and 0.13% in serum on day 3 by administration of quercetin and rutin, respectively. Thus, some part of the administered quercetin or rutin was metabolized and showed antioxidant property, but had no remarkable influence on serum or hepatic lipid concentrations or fecal steroid excretion in rats.

 

J Agric Food Chem. 2003 Apr 23;51(9):2785-9.
Absorption and urinary excretion of quercetin, rutin, and alphaG-rutin, a water soluble flavonoid, in rats.
Shimoi K1, Yoshizumi K, Kido T, Usui Y, Yumoto T.
Quercetin, rutin, alphaG-rutin (a water soluble flavonoid), and a mixture of rutin and alphaG-rutin were administered to rats by a single gastric intubation, and their absorption and urinary excretion were examined. The plasma and 24 h urinary levels of aglycons (quercetin and tamarixetin/isorhamnetin) were measured by HPLC after deconjugation with beta-glucuronidase/sulfatase treatment. alphaG-rutin was absorbed more rapidly than quercetin or rutin, and the plasma concentrations of quercetin and tamarixetin/isorhamnetin reached the highest peak level 30 min after dosing. Quercetin, rutin, and the mixture of rutin and alphaG-rutin showed the first peak level 8 h, 8 h, and 30 min after dosing, respectively. The area under the concentration-time curve (AUC) for quercetin in rats administered alphaG-rutin was approximately 4.5- and 2-fold higher than those in rats administered quercetin and rutin, respectively, and was almost the same as that in rats administered a mixture of rutin and alphaG-rutin. The highest 24 h urinary excretion was observed in alphaG-rutin-administered rats. These results suggest that alphaG-rutin is absorbed more efficiently than either quercetin or rutin and that a high plasma concentration can be maintained by supplying rutin and alphaG-rutin in combination.
PMID: 12696973

 

 

In other words: The the AUC for quercetin in rats administered rutin was 2.25-fold higher than in rats administered quercetin.

 



#26 YOLF

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Posted 10 April 2016 - 01:29 AM

 

 

Like I said, are you going to eat tons of stuff everyday to get all the benefits? Is doing so going to counter those benefits with an abundance of carbs and other food junk? Eating healthy is great for single benefits, but in realty, the benefits are inconsistent when from food. 

 

Like I said, what benefits?

 

 

 

Really? It's impossible to do any research whatsoever? Here are some published studies I was able to find in about 10 minutes. They show some significant anticancer effects and demonstrate clinical activity in human patients with specific conditions. As I said, quercetin presumably works on some medical conditions but not others, under some specific test conditions but not others, so you can't expect every study to show positive and statistically significant results.

 

The flavonoid quercetin inhibits pancreatic cancer growth in vitro and in vivo
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3530623/

Quercetin decreases tumorigenesis in a mouse model of breast cancer
http://www.fasebj.or...bstracts/862.30

Enhanced inhibition of prostate cancer xenograft tumor growth by combining quercetin and green tea
[effect was demonstrated separately and was increased when the substances were used in combination]
http://www.sciencedi...95528631300199X

Treatment of interstitial cystitis with a quercetin supplement

[clinical trial, p =.000001]
http://europepmc.org...ct/med/11272677

Quercetin Reduces Blood Pressure in Hypertensive Subjects
http://jn.nutrition....37/11/2405.full
 

 

 

Well that's where you have to decide based on your diet, and the effects you perceive, if it's worth it. You gotta buy it and try it, that's why lots of companies give samples.



#27 Ohm

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Posted 10 April 2016 - 09:46 PM

Can those benefits be enjoyed by consuming foods (capers) which have relatively high levels of quercetin that are arguably more bioavailable than supplement extracts?

 

That is an important question which, according to what I have read (including the above links), have not be answered.


Edited by Ohm, 10 April 2016 - 10:28 PM.

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#28 YOLF

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Posted 11 April 2016 - 12:10 AM

Can those benefits be enjoyed by consuming foods (capers) which have relatively high levels of quercetin that are arguably more bioavailable than supplement extracts?

 

That is an important question which, according to what I have read (including the above links), have not be answered.

Well, do a study. see if it's easier to stick to a diet or take supplements, and then, if people can get a spectrum of health benefits without gaining weight. Pistachios have alot of manganese in them and protect the brain, but they also have a ton of omega 9s in them and if I eat enough of them to maximize the benefits, I'll get fat. 


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#29 normalizing

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Posted 11 April 2016 - 04:57 AM

where did you read manganese protects the brain?

 

just found this; http://www.timelessl...d-inflammation/


Edited by normalizing, 11 April 2016 - 05:17 AM.

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