5 replies to this topic

[ocsrazor]

This is thread an offshoot of the the aging theories thread which has recently focused on evolution of aging and rather than delete off-topic posts I wanted to start a new discussion. I brought up the idea that there are forces in addition to purely biological selection now at work in influencing the direction of human evolution. In this thread please post ideas about these forces (culture, technology, economics etc), what their possible mechanisms of action are in changing the biological nature of mankind. What is feedback of these forces on the biological form of Homo Sapiens (i.e. are they changing our genes?). Here is the conversation from the other topic:

My comment that started it:

Modern culture has completely thrown out all the rules though, so there is no longer any selection pressure for humans in the classical sense.

Doubting Didymus' reply:

There are always selection pressures. Modern culture has removed some of the more superficial selection pressures, but otherwise we are evolving today as much as we ever were.

My reply;

My comment about modern culture throwing out selection pressure in the classical sense didn't mean that there isn't any pressure at all, but that it is something all together different from purely biological evolution. It is cultural and technological selection layered on top of biological selection which has added a whole new type of complexity and which is just now starting to be examined - extremely interesting stuff! (another thread entirely) The mechanisms there are just starting to be worked out though and they apparently have emergent properties which in some ways are very different from the biological paradigm, that is what I meant by the rules are different now.

Doubting Didymus' reply:

Ah, my apologies. I thought you were repeating the common misconception that humans have somehow stopped their biological evolution, just because we don't die from quite as many ailments. I assume that your references to cultural and technological evolution refer to memetics? If not, then you are using 'evolution' in a way that doesn't gel with me.

My last reply before I moved this (and see Lazarus' reply to Didymus in the next post which was posted almost simultaneous with this reply, serendipity )

I defintiely don't think we have stopped evolving, just that the external environmental pressures have been to a large extent replaced with human created (cultural and technological) pressures (btw just as I started to write this this Laz's comment popped up, weird huh?). Memetics would be the method of transmission of the pressure for the cultural influences, and for the technology it is another story entirely which is off topic.

[ocsrazor]

This was Lazarus Long's reply to Doubting Didymus's last comment in the previous post:

Which is why I do push the envelope Didymus and argue that "Human Selection" has come to override true "Natural Selection" as it governed the Evolution of Life on Earth for most of three billion years.

We are changing the rules, not just for ourselves but as the Selectors of both Environmental conditions and Ecological balance. We do this by design and neglect, by demand and from waste product. We do it by altering and creating new environments and defining whole environments as we would when we finally come to truly terraform our first world.

But before we will ever Terraform Mars, or a Jovian Moon we will have succeeded or failed to Terraform the Earth. We must achieve this level of technical expertise just to have a chance at true interstellar ships. We are the builders of worlds, if we survive ourselves.

If not, we are the probable cause of the next KT Type Event and the fossil record is starting to bear this out as the newest fossils are formed. We have already achieved relatively unprecedented levels of extinction that have paralleled our rise from mere terrestial Ape.

This can be shown to have begun over 50K years ago with our globalized use of Fire and the development of complex language but truly went into high gear over the last few centuries with our Industrial Revolution.

This is even why I reduce human economics into just a variant on species adaptive use of resources and territory. Hence a behavioral aspect of Evolutionary Psychology for any given species. We are developing parallel behaviors to ALL highly Urbanized specices.

We are developing Hive like Characteristics that we like to call Government so as to distinguish ourselves frm the simple matriarchal monarchies of most of the rest of the urbanized species. Like schooling fish and swarming bees Humans exhibit Superbeing behaviors too. Just watch the freeways from altitude at night.

BTW, Didymus nice to have you aboard. Don't you just love it when Life imitates Art?

[caliban]

Very interesting topics:

just two swift personal remarks:

1) while I tagged Laz contribution as being off-topic (while the previous ones were still somewhat related to the evolution of aging) I did not actually delete it myself, and would have prefered to see it split it out. Thanks for doing that!

2) why is this a SINGULARITY topic? This to me seems to belong to Transhumanist philosophy, and sociology not necessarily tied up with "the Singularity" If you are implying that it is, that you should indicate this straight away. The current placement indicates a strong bias. I would not want to contribute under this pretext. (not that I have the time atm anyway [ggg])

[ocsrazor]

Hi Gang,

My apologies to Lazarus for having his above post under my name, I just couldn't find a way to move a single post to a pre-exisiting topic with the moderation options. Any suggestions there BJ?

After looking around the forum the only place I really felt this fit was in the singularity area which was the only place with a significant number of threads on accelerating changes in the structure of human culture, tech, etc. I didn't think this would fit in a philosophy category because I see it as much more a hard science issue now.

Any other sugggestions on possible placement or whether this issue is tied to singularity?

Best Stuff,
Ocsrazor

[Bruce Klein]

Any suggestions there BJ?

Hmm, The only way as of yet to move individual posts is to 'split topic' or 'merge topic' from the dropdown menu below 'moderation options'. It's a little cumbersome... and is probably best understood by trying a test (look in Vol Forums to Try This Out).

Also, tuck this away for future reference... there's a way to 'close' a topic.. plus you can 'pin' a topic if you'd like to make a certain topic easily accessible and not subject to more posts.

The Singularity
The potential for an exponential increase in the pace of progress due to advances in artificial intelligence and/or nanotechnology.

The Forum description would imply that Ocs's topic is relevant here.. however it easily overlaps into may other fields... maybe we need to consider a revised forum layout. I'm likely to differ to Caliban on this one as he is a pro at keeping things organized.

(feel free to delete this post when necessary)

[Lazarus Long]

I don't mind that you spun the thread off but you did miss the point of the post in the first place. I don't have time to repost the whole letter but if you want to put the letter I sent you Ocam I wouldn't mind.

Basically Human Selection isn't an ancilary issue it goes directly to the assertion being made about Natural Selection, which I think CAN be demonstrated to be "Selecting for Death" in a variety of ways from Life Cycle Aging characteristics, Selecting for varying Mutation as adaptive for environment, to the principles of the Food Chain.

Human Selection changes these rules paradigmatically and I suggest that the quest for longevity is part of the transitory aspect of Human Slection overcoming Natural Selection.


On a separate point:
Yes, this was true serendiptiy since the post wasn't there when I selected to write but appeared in the window after I replied.

It is important to add that I am NOT basing what I am saying on the issue of the Singularity AT ALL. I am arguing that Superbeing behavior IS a consequence of Natural Selection and many insect species have achieved a limited success as such.

I am saying that Human population pressure and complexity of Environmental interaction associated with our Social Primate characteristics, and complex communicative ability is creating a Convergant Evolutionary track that humans are following down, the way dolphin mimic sharks. But Dolphin ARE NOT SHARKS!!

We are developing strong Hive Mind Characteristics, in part as a Natural Selection for adaptation to Urban Population and Economic Distribution of Species dependant resources and this is also driving our species into war.